KotOR: II

[ygetoff]

I loved it honestly, I never experienced that many bugs, the moral-choices were teriffically well-done, the characters were excellently portrayed, and the writing was top notch.

Also they made HK-47 even better somehow. That's gotta be worth something.

The Ending was the only horrible part. Sadly seeing as I play on consoles I'll never get to play the re-done version by Gizka.

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the game.
If only the ending could be fixed...

 

[The Bandit]

I had too many game-ruining bugs and glitches to enjoy the game. I once set a girl free, then Kreia and the apprentice (I think) started accusing me of murder and psychotic acts. Then, after that, it said I lost influence with the handmaiden.

Who was impossible to have on my team since she doesn't join you if you're a chick. *sigh*

It's a real shame, too, the game has sooooooooooooooo much potential, but it all gets squashed under the rush to release the game. I can't wait until Team Gizka finally finishes refurbishing it.

Yeah. Because they're totally going to actually finish it. : / Just download the damn leak.

EDIT: Oh, and, blahblah KOTOR2 is bettar

 

[Radeonx]

I liked 1 better, but in my opinion 2 had better characters. Sion and Nihilus were so much more badass then Malak.

 

[Woodsey]

And I hated what they did to MY Revan. Oh, buggered off outside the galaxy did he? I don't think so! MY Revan was a master of the darkside! He would have conquered the galaxy with the Star Forge! The Republic was crippled. Taking it would have been EASY. There is no way MY Revan, regardless of what threat lay outside the galaxy, would have stopped when victory was so near.

Well...that is the Star Wars canon...him being light side and then buggering off. To not fuck up the timeline, they had to make him do that anyway. That said, the threat of imminent destruction will make people do all sorts of weird stuff. Like leave and martyr yourself.

Not MY Revan. The options that KotOR gave cast my Revan as a cruel Tyrannical ruler with no empathy for any living creature. Why would he martyr himself? Also, how many years would it have taken to conquer the galaxy, considering the Jedi and Republic are crippled from the Assault on the Star Forge, and the Star Forge is full operational producing unlimited amounts of reinforcements? A decade at most, taking all planets of value within the Republic and the Core Worlds leaving nowhere for the Senate to run.

Now. Should Revan a) Flee the galaxy and hit the enemy head on with limited forces, no reinforcements and no hope of ever actually returning or b) Conquer the galaxy, use the other production facilities across the galaxy to boost his forces and then bunker down and let the enemy break against an impenetrable wall of unlimited reinforcements.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Even as a Jedi, leaving with no support, telling no one where he was going is just MORONIC and ARROGENT. Sparing people's lives is 1 thing. Being stupid enough to think you can face a menace alone with no aid, no way to call for help and no way to warn people if you fail is beyond believable. Revan must have been incredibly arrogent of his own abilities, or severly brain dead.

Either way, was not happy with that element of KotOR 2. If they had set is maybe 100, 200 years after Revan, when his Empire had crumbled and the Republic arisen again or after the Sith had been beaten back and Revan long since past away, that MAY have been believable.

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

 

[DarkLordofDevon]

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

I am aware of the canon my friend. It still doesn't make sense. No one runs off and says "I'm going to save the universe! Don't follow me!..." And is sane.

If Revan was a great a leader and tactician as he is supposed to be from KotOR 1, he would see the logic of uniting the galaxy against this threat. If he can beat it on his own, well and good. But to think he goes ALONE, without any way of contacting the outside galaxy of his success or failure is stupid. Yes, T3 does get sent back, but if he failed then that means this threat KNOWS where the galaxy is, and is about to desend upon it!

IT MAKES NO LOGIC SENSE.

Forgive me for wanting more complicated plots than, "He left."

 

[Woodsey]

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

I am aware of the canon my friend. It still doesn't make sense. No one runs off and says "I'm going to save the universe! Don't follow me!..." And is sane.

If Revan was a great a leader and tactician as he is supposed to be from KotOR 1, he would see the logic of uniting the galaxy against this threat. If he can beat it on his own, well and good. But to think he goes ALONE, without any way of contacting the outside galaxy of his success or failure is stupid. Yes, T3 does get sent back, but if he failed then that means this threat KNOWS where the galaxy is, and is about to desend upon it!

IT MAKES NO LOGIC SENSE.

Forgive me for wanting more complicated plots than, "He left."

Well I'm with you on the fact it was a stupid backstory but there's nothing I can do about it xD

I might look it up and see if any more explanation is given.

 

[Kilo24]

That's a problem that most (if not all) morality meters in RPGs have. Although it was the same in both games I believe.

Going dark side gave you more strength I think , but going fully light side gave you more wisdom which influences your force points, so it balances it out - but the system is dated (and so it should be - these games were made 5/6 years ago).

I'm quite unaware of any huge leaps forward made in morality systems since then. Fable? Aside from lumping a load of cosmetic changes on good vs evil and altering the exp required to learn spells, nothing substantial was done. Maybe Fable 2 was deeper, but I wasn't under that impression. Bioshock had an interesting idea, but getting back your sacrifices in order to be good makes them sacrifices no longer.

The morality system in KotoR and its sequel is very poor, but pretty much the best around. The sequel in particular had much more interesting conceptions of what good and evil were than most games do (Planescape: Torment is as good as or superior in that regard, but less visible to the player.)

 

[DarkLordofDevon]

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

I am aware of the canon my friend. It still doesn't make sense. No one runs off and says "I'm going to save the universe! Don't follow me!..." And is sane.

If Revan was a great a leader and tactician as he is supposed to be from KotOR 1, he would see the logic of uniting the galaxy against this threat. If he can beat it on his own, well and good. But to think he goes ALONE, without any way of contacting the outside galaxy of his success or failure is stupid. Yes, T3 does get sent back, but if he failed then that means this threat KNOWS where the galaxy is, and is about to desend upon it!

IT MAKES NO LOGIC SENSE.

Forgive me for wanting more complicated plots than, "He left."

Well I'm with you on the fact it was a stupid backstory but there's nothing I can do about it xD

I might look it up and see if any more explanation is given.

Sadly there isn't.

*sigh* Why must the greatest of things be plagued with follow ups of poorer quality?

Star Wars especially so.

 

[Woodsey]

That's a problem that most (if not all) morality meters in RPGs have. Although it was the same in both games I believe.

Going dark side gave you more strength I think , but going fully light side gave you more wisdom which influences your force points, so it balances it out - but the system is dated (and so it should be - these games were made 5/6 years ago).

I'm quite unaware of any huge leaps forward made in morality systems since then. Fable? Aside from lumping a load of cosmetic changes on good vs evil and altering the exp required to learn spells, nothing substantial was done. Maybe Fable 2 was deeper, but I wasn't under that impression. Bioshock had an interesting idea, but getting back your sacrifices in order to be good makes them sacrifices no longer.

The morality system in KotoR and its sequel is very poor, but pretty much the best around. The sequel in particular had much more interesting conceptions of what good and evil were than most games do (Planescape: Torment is as good as or superior in that regard, but less visible to the player.)

Mass Effect's is better because once you've done something bad it sticks with you and vice versa, which isn't exactly a leaping improvement but choice do seem broader and have a better 'grey' area.

Having said that they're still stupidly 2 dimensional in some cases. For example, in Mass Effect you have this guy who's a fan (sorry I dunno if you've played it) and he decides he wants to join the military because of you, but let's just say he appears a bit mentally backward. So I jumped him and pointed a gun in his face, and he then (obviously) couldn't do anything to get out of the situation, so my point was proved that he shouldn't join and it wasn't a game. I'd upset him but I'd stopped him from doing something where he'd probably get killed, and yet I was given renegade points.

That's the problem, everyone's got their own interpretation on what's good and bad. So if a designer says doing something one way is good, but you think it's better to do it the other way and you disagree then you get 'baddie' points. Having said that Mass Effect is pretty spot on.

I don't agree with you getting 'good guy points' or w/e though and then measuring it on a chart, it makes it seem to gimmicky (like the pop ups for influence in KotOR 2).

 

[CoverYourHead]

The first had a MUCH better story. I saw the plot twists coming a mile away in KOTOR II, and it didn't even end with a bang. It was also way too easy, and characters were much too boring. The first was more challenging, the fighting was better, and generally more fun.

 

[CoverYourHead]

Actually though, if i remember correctly, both Revan AND the Outcast are canonically FEMALE, so Handmaiden is completely out of canon.

Revan is male.

Hmm, it appears you are right, my mistake, lol.


also TOTALLY unrelated, but I want to say it anyway, I always disliked the good/evil system in KotOR. Let me rephrase that... I disliked the BENEFITS of it. Most lightside exclusives were useless on 2/3rds of all enemies or just worse in general. It was like you couldn't really be an offensive force user on the light side and like you... Wait- I smell new thread... *runs*

The secret to being light side was that you had to get the force powers that made you more powerful, not the ones that hurt your opponents more. It ties into the story, actually. Evil uses the force to hurt others, light side uses the force to make themselves better.

 

[Chunko]

Kotor 2 was a good game, but it was boring compared too kotor 1

 

[The Bandit]

And I hated what they did to MY Revan. Oh, buggered off outside the galaxy did he? I don't think so! MY Revan was a master of the darkside! He would have conquered the galaxy with the Star Forge! The Republic was crippled. Taking it would have been EASY. There is no way MY Revan, regardless of what threat lay outside the galaxy, would have stopped when victory was so near.

Well...that is the Star Wars canon...him being light side and then buggering off. To not fuck up the timeline, they had to make him do that anyway. That said, the threat of imminent destruction will make people do all sorts of weird stuff. Like leave and martyr yourself.

Not MY Revan. The options that KotOR gave cast my Revan as a cruel Tyrannical ruler with no empathy for any living creature. Why would he martyr himself? Also, how many years would it have taken to conquer the galaxy, considering the Jedi and Republic are crippled from the Assault on the Star Forge, and the Star Forge is full operational producing unlimited amounts of reinforcements? A decade at most, taking all planets of value within the Republic and the Core Worlds leaving nowhere for the Senate to run.

Now. Should Revan a) Flee the galaxy and hit the enemy head on with limited forces, no reinforcements and no hope of ever actually returning or b) Conquer the galaxy, use the other production facilities across the galaxy to boost his forces and then bunker down and let the enemy break against an impenetrable wall of unlimited reinforcements.

IT MAKES NO SENSE.

Even as a Jedi, leaving with no support, telling no one where he was going is just MORONIC and ARROGENT. Sparing people's lives is 1 thing. Being stupid enough to think you can face a menace alone with no aid, no way to call for help and no way to warn people if you fail is beyond believable. Revan must have been incredibly arrogent of his own abilities, or severly brain dead.

Either way, was not happy with that element of KotOR 2. If they had set is maybe 100, 200 years after Revan, when his Empire had crumbled and the Republic arisen again or after the Sith had been beaten back and Revan long since past away, that MAY have been believable.

Sure it makes sense, both ways. If Revan was darkside, he didn't want someone else screwing up his conquering. Light side is self-explanatory. The fact is, we really don't know what Obsidian meant for the True Sith to be. They were kind of led up to be seen as some mystical force, completely different from any other Sith. And, as Kreia put it, the war wasn't fought with machines and ships, but with the Force. Yet, Lucasarts has basically said screw that, and made the True Sith as exactly every other Sith Empire.

What I'm trying to say: If the Sith were some mystical group, Revan taking an army with him would've made no difference. Going alone does make sense. As the Sith are seen in The Old Republic, yes, you're right. It doesn't make sense.

 

[rated pg]

I prefer KoToR 1 more even though it's the standard Bioware RPG with the same characters and different names, simply because of the plot switch, the fewer bugs, and the ending was dramatic and provided closure as opposed to KotoR 2's which just felt tacked on and rushed, and left a lot of people scratching their heads. Both great, both worth playing, but if KotoR 1 was running in the same engine as KotoR 2, there would be no comparison.

 

[Haunted Serenity]

I'm playing KOTOR now...a year ago a friend ruined the twists of the game....so it's kinda annoying. I prefered sith lords better gameplay mechanics and graphics but dislike the amount of planets you go too...so far KOTOR is seeming better for planets. Although the glee i got when the first planet you are stuck on gets destroyed is wonderfull. there for 7 hours!

 

[Nigh Invulnerable]

I far prefer the less obvious morality choices in KOTOR II. Yes, there's still the "eating babies" vs. "Mother Theresa" type choices, but there were a ton more options where it wasn't as obvious whether you'd receive light or dark side points. That alone made me appreciate the second game a ton. Add in the characters being a little less cliche and the influence system and I was hooked. My single complaint is the crappy ending and some of the bugs, but those were fairly minor issues given the rest of the game and the storytelling.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

@Woodsey

*cracks nuckles*

Hmm, I see what your saying, but at the same time, I disagree with your outlook on the characters.
Comparing Handmaiden, a gender triggered accomplice in your mission that wont even JOIN if you have a y chromosome, to the heroine of the first game is rather stilted. If you notice, I wont even talk about her or Apprentice. Actually though, if i remember correctly, both Revan AND the Outcast are canonically FEMALE, so Handmaiden is completely out of canon. I compare Visas <3 more to Juhani, as both of them have taken a walk on the dark side, and as far as just about everything concerning the two of them, Visas Marr <3 could kick Juhani's butt any day of the week.

I also found Bastilla rather annoying, with her whole, "I'm so awesome, I can battle meditate and everything is up to me" snobbery.

I will give you that Kreia was a somewhat annoying character to have on the team, since you kind of get the feeling that talking to her is an exercise in futility, since she gets some sick pleasure in playing mindgames with everyone, and her only responses to your views are "I like you More, Your a bloody twit, or Your an idealistic fool." Which led to me leaving her to wander about the Ebon Hawk more often than not.

But really, other than Kreia, and hanhaar(that was the other woookie), I must say that every other character was great, and their storylines were better. Visas Marr <3 had great story. Especially her redemption, and her showdown with Darth Nihilus was great. She was, In my opinion, the most developed, and possibly best, supporting character in KotOR II.

I dont think you can really say that the characters were bad when all you did was compare handmaiden to Bastilla, you didn't really give any examples or points to your argument there, other than droids.

My response, good sir.

*EDIT*
@Woodsey
lol, its cool, I've written a few full blown essays here as well, I dont fully disagree with your views, but I do love a bit of "Point, Counterpoint."

Well I'll be happy to engage in some "point, counterpoint, counterpointpoint, etc."

First off, Revan is canononically male you fiend! And yes I know whilst not canon, that shouldn't be an excuse of putting any less effort into a character - especially one that was tied very closely to important points of the game. Light Side choices are canon in both games, but you don't want a downgraded experience just because you play on the dark side, do you?

If by Visas and Juhani being similar you mean they were both annoying and dull then yes, you would be correct Seriously though I hated Juhani and Visas I felt was just boring. The connection she had to Nihilus was seriously under played (as was every aspect of him).

The reason I liked Bastila was for the exact reason you disliked her funnily enough, I felt as if her character had a progression - something which many characters in KotOR 2 didn't have. Yes she was a brat, but that portrayal was spot-on! She's young, but with an exceptional talent and with a lot of pressure on her - that would make many people act cocky and snobbish.

I think the characters in KotOR 2 create more of an illusion as to being more well rounded with the use of the gimmicky influence system - it really didn't need to be there, and you could miss entire chunks of the game unless you licked everyone's arse. The first game was more structured - you learnt more about people simply by gaining levels and making sure you spoke to them often. In KotOR 2 conversations felt like a mini-game; having to replay them over and over until you say the right thing and gain influence.

Again this amplified Kreia being annoying; even in a game, it's annoying to agree with views that you feel are stupid just to find out tit-bits about something. I don't mind the crypticness of her character (at times I enjoyed it), but in this case it was overused and poorly implemented.

I think I came across wrong about the characters. If I said they weren't bad, just not as good would that make it clearer? I was just trying to match a few that I felt were similar in characteristics. And don't discriminate against the droids (especially HK-47 you meat bag) they were implied to play a very important role and in the end were underplayed again I felt.

GO-TO was just a stupid character and that's that. Canderous was so prolific I thought in the first game, and him and Revan had a bond of respect for each other - I suppose that was another problem that I felt; you felt as if you were only there to be a sidekick to a better and more powerful character that you'd already played.

Atton Rand I must admit was a very interesting character, and would of been someone who I would of been happy to see appear in either game - very well written and very well acted. He had a dark back story, but he was layered so that he just acted like he didn't care about anything. This was something similar to Carth who blamed himself about his family's death (his wife's at least) and the betrayal of Saul Karath. He became different to hide it.

I just enjoyed finding out about the characters in the first game, and found them to be better written and performed then those in KotOR 2.

By the way, quote me if you want to talk about it or I may never know you've replied!

lol, I wanted to avoid a quote back-and-forth of epic proportions, and I dislike *snip*ing comments.
CONDESCENDING STATEMENT: Yes, Woodsey, HK was important...

lol, just kidding, HK was really funny as heck, and I'm glad he was another character who carried on in the second game.

Juhani was dull, and.... actually kinda hard to look at... like a gargoyle with a topknott, so I agree there, but I disagree with your statement about Visas Marr <3 of course, lol.

I must say that I dont believe adding the system to produce deeper dialogue cannot be viewed as a bad idea. Most of the system was really easy and you didnt have to compromise on most of your speech choices, because influence was a two-way street, so there were ways to say good or bad things and change the influence. The system would have been nice to have in the first game as well.

Anyway, i cede to you that I was wrong about Revan's gender, but I was right about the Outcast. ^_^ And a fully fleshed out storyline is to be expected from either story side, but due to her gender requirement and the already known rushed game release, she wasnt so smooth. Also, I think that at some point, they had originally wanted to have Jedi Master Atris, since she's on the cover... and posters.... and booklets... and there is one frame where she is in a character portrait on the protagonist's team.(also the apprentice should have been a non-gender based character, since besides kreia, he is the only other force based character.(jedi Master or Sith Lord, and the handmaiden is just female Bao Dur without the awesomeness of his lil' droid (yes, I like droids, especially his.)

Yeah, I don't like Brianna the handmaiden much.

Anyway, i still stand by my point that the influence system was a game *improvement* in the sequel, and really DID make the characters more endearing than in the first game.

 

[Woodsey]

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

I am aware of the canon my friend. It still doesn't make sense. No one runs off and says "I'm going to save the universe! Don't follow me!..." And is sane.

If Revan was a great a leader and tactician as he is supposed to be from KotOR 1, he would see the logic of uniting the galaxy against this threat. If he can beat it on his own, well and good. But to think he goes ALONE, without any way of contacting the outside galaxy of his success or failure is stupid. Yes, T3 does get sent back, but if he failed then that means this threat KNOWS where the galaxy is, and is about to desend upon it!

IT MAKES NO LOGIC SENSE.

Forgive me for wanting more complicated plots than, "He left."

Well I'm with you on the fact it was a stupid backstory but there's nothing I can do about it xD

I might look it up and see if any more explanation is given.

Sadly there isn't.

*sigh* Why must the greatest of things be plagued with follow ups of poorer quality?

Star Wars especially so.

Alright I've got a half-arsed explanation with some assistance from wookieepedia about the matter.

What you said about him and if he failed, it was stupid because the threat was still there and the galaxy was still in trouble. He did however leave Carth to lead the republic and Canderous to reunite the mandalorians in his clan (and the others that would join him). The republic was a large force, but due to the recent war it was in a pretty shit state. It was important for it to gather it's strength - rushing off to fight another enemy which was probably more powerful would of been stupid; especially as they'd have to leave uncharted space - what if they never found the threat? They'd of left the galaxy exposed with no protection what so ever. That's where the mandalorians come in, as Canderous was always very admiring of Revan. Canderous would of been willing to lead his Mandalorians with the republic, especially if it was on Revan's orders.

So you've then got the Mandalorians and the Republic growing stronger again - take a weak force in to attack an enemy you have no information on would be stupid. Revan left Bastila and the others so they weren't hurt.

It's also unknown when in the space of time he decided to leave - Nihilus and Sion could already have been wiping out Jedi - especially with the massacre on Katarr that was caused by Nihilus.

So maybe I don't agree with you so much anymore, he made plans, and if anyone was going to be able to stop the 'True Sith' it was him. And if something happened to him, T3 was set by Bastila to return to her - meaning they'd be informed of the threat. Better he go alone and only he dies then take a weak force (and the only chance of protection should there be another war) and have that destroyed as well.

It makes sense to me.

 

[Woodsey]

@Woodsey

*cracks nuckles*

Hmm, I see what your saying, but at the same time, I disagree with your outlook on the characters.
Comparing Handmaiden, a gender triggered accomplice in your mission that wont even JOIN if you have a y chromosome, to the heroine of the first game is rather stilted. If you notice, I wont even talk about her or Apprentice. Actually though, if i remember correctly, both Revan AND the Outcast are canonically FEMALE, so Handmaiden is completely out of canon. I compare Visas <3 more to Juhani, as both of them have taken a walk on the dark side, and as far as just about everything concerning the two of them, Visas Marr <3 could kick Juhani's butt any day of the week.

I also found Bastilla rather annoying, with her whole, "I'm so awesome, I can battle meditate and everything is up to me" snobbery.

I will give you that Kreia was a somewhat annoying character to have on the team, since you kind of get the feeling that talking to her is an exercise in futility, since she gets some sick pleasure in playing mindgames with everyone, and her only responses to your views are "I like you More, Your a bloody twit, or Your an idealistic fool." Which led to me leaving her to wander about the Ebon Hawk more often than not.

But really, other than Kreia, and hanhaar(that was the other woookie), I must say that every other character was great, and their storylines were better. Visas Marr <3 had great story. Especially her redemption, and her showdown with Darth Nihilus was great. She was, In my opinion, the most developed, and possibly best, supporting character in KotOR II.

I dont think you can really say that the characters were bad when all you did was compare handmaiden to Bastilla, you didn't really give any examples or points to your argument there, other than droids.

My response, good sir.

*EDIT*
@Woodsey
lol, its cool, I've written a few full blown essays here as well, I dont fully disagree with your views, but I do love a bit of "Point, Counterpoint."

Well I'll be happy to engage in some "point, counterpoint, counterpointpoint, etc."

First off, Revan is canononically male you fiend! And yes I know whilst not canon, that shouldn't be an excuse of putting any less effort into a character - especially one that was tied very closely to important points of the game. Light Side choices are canon in both games, but you don't want a downgraded experience just because you play on the dark side, do you?

If by Visas and Juhani being similar you mean they were both annoying and dull then yes, you would be correct Seriously though I hated Juhani and Visas I felt was just boring. The connection she had to Nihilus was seriously under played (as was every aspect of him).

The reason I liked Bastila was for the exact reason you disliked her funnily enough, I felt as if her character had a progression - something which many characters in KotOR 2 didn't have. Yes she was a brat, but that portrayal was spot-on! She's young, but with an exceptional talent and with a lot of pressure on her - that would make many people act cocky and snobbish.

I think the characters in KotOR 2 create more of an illusion as to being more well rounded with the use of the gimmicky influence system - it really didn't need to be there, and you could miss entire chunks of the game unless you licked everyone's arse. The first game was more structured - you learnt more about people simply by gaining levels and making sure you spoke to them often. In KotOR 2 conversations felt like a mini-game; having to replay them over and over until you say the right thing and gain influence.

Again this amplified Kreia being annoying; even in a game, it's annoying to agree with views that you feel are stupid just to find out tit-bits about something. I don't mind the crypticness of her character (at times I enjoyed it), but in this case it was overused and poorly implemented.

I think I came across wrong about the characters. If I said they weren't bad, just not as good would that make it clearer? I was just trying to match a few that I felt were similar in characteristics. And don't discriminate against the droids (especially HK-47 you meat bag) they were implied to play a very important role and in the end were underplayed again I felt.

GO-TO was just a stupid character and that's that. Canderous was so prolific I thought in the first game, and him and Revan had a bond of respect for each other - I suppose that was another problem that I felt; you felt as if you were only there to be a sidekick to a better and more powerful character that you'd already played.

Atton Rand I must admit was a very interesting character, and would of been someone who I would of been happy to see appear in either game - very well written and very well acted. He had a dark back story, but he was layered so that he just acted like he didn't care about anything. This was something similar to Carth who blamed himself about his family's death (his wife's at least) and the betrayal of Saul Karath. He became different to hide it.

I just enjoyed finding out about the characters in the first game, and found them to be better written and performed then those in KotOR 2.

By the way, quote me if you want to talk about it or I may never know you've replied!

lol, I wanted to avoid a quote back-and-forth of epic proportions, and I dislike *snip*ing comments.
CONDESCENDING STATEMENT: Yes, Woodsey, HK was important...

lol, just kidding, HK was really funny as heck, and I'm glad he was another character who carried on in the second game.

Juhani was dull, and.... actually kinda hard to look at... like a gargoyle with a topknott, so I agree there, but I disagree with your statement about Visas Marr <3 of course, lol.

I must say that I dont believe adding the system to produce deeper dialogue cannot be viewed as a bad idea. Most of the system was really easy and you didnt have to compromise on most of your speech choices, because influence was a two-way street, so there were ways to say good or bad things and change the influence. The system would have been nice to have in the first game as well.

Anyway, i cede to you that I was wrong about Revan's gender, but I was right about the Outcast. ^_^ And a fully fleshed out storyline is to be expected from either story side, but due to her gender requirement and the already known rushed game release, she wasnt so smooth. Also, I think that at some point, they had originally wanted to have Jedi Master Atris, since she's on the cover... and posters.... and booklets... and there is one frame where she is in a character portrait on the protagonist's team.

Yeah, I don't like Brianna the handmaiden much.

Anyway, i still stand by my point that the influence system was a game *improvement* in the sequel, and really DID make the characters more endearing than in the first game.

Well we can agree to disagree on that point, but I think I'm on the minority on the influence system but that's the way it goes sometimes. It was good to be able to make and take fair points on each game without being called a fanboy or twat for once though.

 

[WillSimplyBe]

He left on his own so none of his friends would be harmed, and he needed them to take care of other things (Carth for instance became a military general). And he was one of the most powerful Jedi/Sith in existence - it's not arrogant to know your own power.

That's all if you played canon. It's also thought Revan didn't descend to the dark side for power - but because he knew of the threat in the unknown regions. That's why he went looking for the Star Forge to begin with. Then between KotOR 1 and 2 he remembered what he'd discovered and headed out - because it was a threat to everybody, not just the Jedi but the Sith as well.

I am aware of the canon my friend. It still doesn't make sense. No one runs off and says "I'm going to save the universe! Don't follow me!..." And is sane.

If Revan was a great a leader and tactician as he is supposed to be from KotOR 1, he would see the logic of uniting the galaxy against this threat. If he can beat it on his own, well and good. But to think he goes ALONE, without any way of contacting the outside galaxy of his success or failure is stupid. Yes, T3 does get sent back, but if he failed then that means this threat KNOWS where the galaxy is, and is about to desend upon it!

IT MAKES NO LOGIC SENSE.

Forgive me for wanting more complicated plots than, "He left."

Well I'm with you on the fact it was a stupid backstory but there's nothing I can do about it xD

I might look it up and see if any more explanation is given.

Sadly there isn't.

*sigh* Why must the greatest of things be plagued with follow ups of poorer quality?

Star Wars especially so.

Alright I've got a half-arsed explanation with some assistance from wookieepedia about the matter.

What you said about him and if he failed, it was stupid because the threat was still there and the galaxy was still in trouble. He did however leave Carth to lead the republic and Canderous to reunite the mandalorians in his clan (and the others that would join him). The republic was a large force, but due to the recent war it was in a pretty shit state. It was important for it to gather it's strength - rushing off to fight another enemy which was probably more powerful would of been stupid; especially as they'd have to leave uncharted space - what if they never found the threat? They'd of left the galaxy exposed with no protection what so ever. That's where the mandalorians come in, as Canderous was always very admiring of Revan. Canderous would of been willing to lead his Mandalorians with the republic, especially if it was on Revan's orders.

So you've then got the Mandalorians and the Republic growing stronger again - take a weak force in to attack an enemy you have no information on would be stupid. Revan left Bastila and the others so they weren't hurt.

It's also unknown when in the space of time he decided to leave - Nihilus and Sion could already have been wiping out Jedi - especially with the massacre on Katarr that was caused by Nihilus.

So maybe I don't agree with you so much anymore, he made plans, and if anyone was going to be able to stop the 'True Sith' it was him. And if something happened to him, T3 was set by Bastila to return to her - meaning they'd be informed of the threat. Better he go alone and only he dies then take a weak force (and the only chance of protection should there be another war) and have that destroyed as well.

It makes sense to me.

I agree, Revan's leaving makes sense to me too.