KOTOR2 - Mass Effect 3. Apathy is death.

[JesterRaiin]

That doesn't make sense.

I digress.

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.

When morality is a vital part of game/interactive movie (even such flawed, "no gray area Paragon/Renegade" morality system) there's always lesson and experience.

So because kids may play it, it automatically means it's a bad lesson? And BioWare should do what exactly - if restricting the age of the audience doesn't work, how do they avoid screwing up the children?

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

By the same account, porn movies teach awfully bad lessons to kids. Seriously porn industry... Is it really the best lessons to teach youngsters nowadays ?

I may have a bit of experience with porno industry. What exactly is bad in such movies nowadays ?

Since when PEGI ratings or similar accessories prevented curious mind from tasting the forbidden fruit ?

Huh? I'm not sure I understand what this has to do with anything. And why are you bringing up ratings?
Or are you saying that just because in theory children are able to access a medium they should automatically become the one and only target audience?

Because no matter what accesories you use, no matter how big "Adults only" warning - games will still be played by children. Period.

KOTOR 2 was made by Obsidian, argument = invalid.

I never implied it. Sorry for lack of precision, but i wasn't able to construct proper "x in comparison to y" phrase.

 

[DeadYorick]

Every story that has poetic themes has lessons to tell the player.

While I'm not saying that Bioware should suddenly become moral guardians over what lessons it teaches people, the lessons it does teach people just promote apathetic decisions to choices.

 

[JesterRaiin]

Kind of sad how everyone seems to have devalued the word "troll" into "someone who's opinion differs from mine". Or "I don't quite understand, so this person is obviously a troll".

I love how everyone automatically assumes that he's trolling or an idiot. I can vouch for Jester to say that he would not make a troll thread.

Thanks guys. Unfortunately i was cursed with very poor language skills and most of things i'd like to say are often mistaken with trolling. Ah well, such is life, i'll survive - i hope. ;]

 

[pearcinator]

*cough* Indoctrinated *cough*

 

[Radoh]

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Completely and totally irrelevant point.
These games are adult oriented and as such have far more 'adult' things in them.
By your suggestion we should make these games knowing kids are going to play them, and thus tone them down. Take a game series that revels in blood, guts, gore, and sex and alter it to fit child eyes, and what are you left with exactly? Nothing.

 

[JesterRaiin]

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Completely and totally irrelevant point.
These games are adult oriented and as such have far more 'adult' things in them.
By your suggestion we should make these games knowing kids are going to play them, and thus tone them down. Take a game series that revels in blood, guts, gore, and sex and alter it to fit child eyes, and what are you left with exactly? Nothing.

What a coincidence ! I have exactly the same impression about your suggestion. :]
Games that deal with gore, violence etc are void of moral systems. Their purpose is different.

ME3, Kotor and similar games do HAVE moral systems (flawed or not). There's outcome of actions that's either awarded or punished and by thus considered "right" or "wrong".

 

[KingofMadCows]

It's not just the ending but also other parts of the narrative that impact impressions of previous games. KotoR 2, despite the limitations of not being able to import KotoR 1 saves, helped give more context and a better understanding of the events of KotoR 1 while ME 3 invalidated much of the main plot of ME 2.

KotoR 2 expanded upon Revan, explaining that he wasn't just a stereotypical power hungry Sith Lord but a visionary who sacrificed himself to the Dark Side to unite the galaxy. Similarly, it added much more to the lore of the Mandalorian War, its effect on the Republic and its part in the True Sith's plan. KotoR 2 added to the experience of KotoR 1.

ME 3 made most of the main plot of ME 2 pointless. When you're playing ME 2, you're thinking or are led to think:

1. Collectors were a major asset to the Reapers and stopping them would seriously hurt the Reapers, right?

Nope, there's nothing in ME 3 to suggest that the destruction of the Collectors was a big setback for the Reapers. In fact, the Reapers arrived just a few months after the Collectors were destroyed.

2. Destroying the Collectors made Shepard an even bigger hero, helped bring more attention to the Reaper threat, brought the different races together, and gave the galaxy a much better chance against the Reapers, right?

Nope, "The Arrival" completely wiped out all the goodwill Shepard got from destroying the Collectors. People continue to ignore Shepard's warnings and remain ignorant of the Reapers. Everyone is still unprepared.

3. This awesome team you gathered against the Collectors will be a huge asset and continue to fight with you against the Reapers, and that gives me an extra incentive to keep them alive, right?

Nope, the whole team disbanded and went their separate ways after "The Arrival" DLC. A few of your team members do some cool stuff but most of them have other stuff to do and don't have time to fight alongside you.

4. Surely, the decision to keep or destroy the Collector base was significant, whether or not Cerberus is still on my side no doubt depends on it, right?

Nope, Cerberus becomes evil. Destroying the Collector base has no real consequences. Keeping it gives you access to a different ending that's mostly same with the "best" ending.

 

[Deadyawn]

I always found that bit in KOTOR 2 hilarious. I would say that I didn't care and then they would all say apathy was death and attack me...and I would MURDER THEM ALL EASILY. Totally undercut their point.

 

[DoPo]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.
Additionally, Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.

Closing statement, I suspect this be trolling.

I love how everyone automatically assumes that he's trolling or an idiot.

I love how you make sweeping generalisations.

So stop and think for a moment before throwing out the word Troll.

You were literally the second person to use the word "troll" in this thread. And you used it twice as much as everybody beforehand. Stop and think for a moment before you accuse people of things they haven't done.

So because kids may play it, it automatically means it's a bad lesson? And BioWare should do what exactly - if restricting the age of the audience doesn't work, how do they avoid screwing up the children?

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Again, you didn't answer the question - if kids may play it, what exactly must BioWare do? They clearly don't want kids to play the game. They shouldn't make their games for kids when the game isn't for kids.

By the same account, porn movies teach awfully bad lessons to kids. Seriously porn industry... Is it really the best lessons to teach youngsters nowadays ?

I may have a bit of experience with porno industry. What exactly is bad in such movies nowadays ?

Oh, you mean besides teaching youngsters awful techniquest and unrealistic expectations? How about bad life lessons. Or how about promoting rape? There are porn movies which simulate rape and the poor fragile mind of kids may get the wrong impression from that - that women love to be raped.

KOTOR 2 was made by Obsidian, argument = invalid.

I never implied it. Sorry for lack of precision, but i wasn't able to construct proper "x in comparison to y" phrase.

Again, why did you choose KotOR 2 - you could have chosen Postal. Or Fable. Or Morrowind. Or Shift. Or Unreal 2. Or Blood. Or numerous others. You never established why you compared ME 3 to KotOR 2 exactly.

 

[Soviet Heavy]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Neither of these things are aimed at giving children the Aesop ending, considering both have subject matter in them not exactly squeaky clean for kids to see.
Also, they don't need to give any "final lessons" to be learned, like at all.
Additionally, Bioware didn't make Kotor 2.

Closing statement, I suspect this be trolling.

I love how everyone automatically assumes that he's trolling or an idiot.

I love how you make sweeping generalisations.

So stop and think for a moment before throwing out the word Troll.

You were literally the second person to use the word "troll" in this thread. And you used it twice as much as everybody beforehand. Stop and think for a moment before you accuse people of things they haven't done.

So because kids may play it, it automatically means it's a bad lesson? And BioWare should do what exactly - if restricting the age of the audience doesn't work, how do they avoid screwing up the children?

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Again, you didn't answer the question - if kids may play it, what exactly must BioWare do? They clearly don't want kids to play the game. They shouldn't make their games for kids when the game isn't for kids.

By the same account, porn movies teach awfully bad lessons to kids. Seriously porn industry... Is it really the best lessons to teach youngsters nowadays ?

I may have a bit of experience with porno industry. What exactly is bad in such movies nowadays ?

Oh, you mean besides teaching youngsters awful techniquest and unrealistic expectations? How about bad life lessons. Or how about promoting rape? There are porn movies which simulate rape and the poor fragile mind of kids may get the wrong impression from that - that women love to be raped.

KOTOR 2 was made by Obsidian, argument = invalid.

I never implied it. Sorry for lack of precision, but i wasn't able to construct proper "x in comparison to y" phrase.

Again, why did you choose KotOR 2 - you could have chosen Postal. Or Fable. Or Morrowind. Or Shift. Or Unreal 2. Or Blood. Or numerous others. You never established why you compared ME 3 to KotOR 2 exactly.

If Apathy is Death, then forgive me if I really don't give a shit about semantics. People were questioning his comparison and being dismissive of Jester, so I stood up for him. Also, nice of you to do the lovely tactic of taking a single line out of context of the rest of my post. I also offered an interpretation of what I assumed Jester was talking about, unlike whoever decided to post "KOTOR 2 is Obsidian, invalid argument."

 

[tautologico]

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

I know the hope for a happy ending is strong, but anyway, this doesn't prevent us from thinking, I would guess.

Did you understand the ending at all? Shepard saves the whole galaxy, not just in the present, but for all time. There are sacrifices, people (and maybe whole races) die, and there's (we assume) the loss of the relays, but most of the technology remains and people can rebuild with time. All this without fearing an extinction event at every 50 thousand years. It's a huge sacrifice, but one that results in a huge payoff (being free from the Reapers forever).

I don't think the endings are perfect but to infer from it that "struggling is useless" is so far from the mark. Shepard only managed to end the cycle because of his/her struggle and the help (and sacrifice) of most of the galaxy's advanced races.

Shepard saved the galaxy, even if there was no "riding into the sunset" in the ending.

 

[Antari]

Just an impression.
KOTOR2 tried to teach us about the value of action, struggling, choosing even worst case scenario over doing completely nothing.

Mass Effect 3 ? Considering possible endings i think that it would be best to pack my crew at the end of Mass Effect 2 and leave known space, hide somewhere safe with enough resources to live "happily ever after". There's no reason to struggle, since all we can count on is at best Pyrrhic victory.

Seriously Bioware... Is it really the best lesson to teach youngsters nowadays ?

Edit : Guys, guys, calm.the.f*ck.down please. Seriously.

- First of all, this is simply comparison between similar products. Both are of same genre, both deal with similar atmosphere, theme, setting etc. etc. It doesn't matter - at least not for me - if they are made by different people. I should stress it more. Sorry, details aren't my kind of thing.

- Secondly : With moral decisions and their outcome there's always experience. Always. Not everyone has to blindly accept what is implied, but sure there's lesson, sure there's impact.

- Thirdly : Don't change it into _jihad_ please. Instead of throwing "not aimed at kids" argument, think about message we're receiving here. As i stated before : ME3 suggests that it's pointless to fight and struggle. I don't get it, i'm curious about your opinion.

That is the message of EA in a nutshell. Do not resist. Do not complain. Just be a happy little sheep handing over money. And there's nothing you can do to change it. It bleeds into every company they touch. Its unavoidable, and unmistakeable. I've seen it many times before, and I'll see it many times again. I have a feeling it works its way into the games so firmly because the people working for EA live under a similar lifestyle. Fortunately I don't buy anything with an EA symbol on it anymore. Things are pretty good now.

 

[Irridium]

I always found that bit in KOTOR 2 hilarious. I would say that I didn't care and then they would all say apathy was death and attack me...and I would MURDER THEM ALL EASILY. Totally undercut their point.

Not really. If you picked a side, some would be dead, and some would be alive. You chose to do nothing, and as a result of that they all died.

Apathy is death.

 

[DoPo]

People were questioning his comparison and being dismissive of Jester, so I stood up for him. Also, nice of you to do the lovely tactic of taking a single line out of context of the rest of my post.

Nice of you to make a claim for everybody on this thread based on a single comment. I was just courteous to return the gesture. But the important thing is that you understood why your words bothered me. I trust you will take your own advice and not toss "troll" around so easily and insert it in other people's mouths

I also offered an interpretation of what I assumed Jester was talking about, unlike whoever decided to post "KOTOR 2 is Obsidian, invalid argument."

JesterRaiin never explained that initially why KotOR 2 exactly. That was my question. What is the reason to use that exact game when there are countless others. The whole argument was in one game you can choose to do something in another it is pointless. Therefore, BioWare are bad example for people who aren't their audience.

You can see how that doesn't add up, correct?

I can see the OP is edited. The argument is exactly the same. I do not believe that works should be responsible for groups outside their scope. Whether or not kids do indeed play ME3 is irrelevant as it was never intended for them. The same way you shouldn't blame a porn studio for potential teenage pregnancies. The product is restricted and is not targeted at kids, hence what it teaches them is irrelevant as it simply doesn't - it doesn't teach kids stuff.

Furthermore, why in Hastur's name does he assume that it's immediately bad for the kids. Does ME 3 really teach them the wrong lessons? Because, as I recall, there are tons and tons of children, lots of them grown up now, who have played/seen/read thing that should have been bad for them. I do not see them broken, mentally scarred or equivalent. Kids aren't given enough credit. They can extract the appropriate lessons from themselves. And sometimes they are given too much credit - sometimes they do not get the right lessons because they don't even get any lessons from a work.

 

[Radoh]

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Completely and totally irrelevant point.
These games are adult oriented and as such have far more 'adult' things in them.
By your suggestion we should make these games knowing kids are going to play them, and thus tone them down. Take a game series that revels in blood, guts, gore, and sex and alter it to fit child eyes, and what are you left with exactly? Nothing.

What a coincidence ! I have exactly the same impression about your suggestion. :]
Games that deal with gore, violence etc are void of moral systems. Their purpose is different.

ME3, Kotor and similar games do HAVE moral systems (flawed or not). There's outcome of actions that's either awarded or punished and by thus considered "right" or "wrong".

Except that there is no right or wrong in the morality system in Mass Effect, they are two different ways to achieving what could be considered a morality just end. It is the difference between being a paragon of virtue, risking greater success by trying to help everyone along the way, or the renegade who doesn't take risks and ends up being responsible for more death.
And Kotor 2 is much less useful in choosing between the two, since choosing 'evil' is downright comical."Not only will I not help you, but now I'm going to kill you for even asking!" being the primary sentiment for dark side choices. This takes away any real credibility to a system of 'morality'.
Maybe next time you should consider actually backing up your arguments and making a full thought out of them before posting half a comment that could be easily misconstrued as something completely different then what you are trying to argue against/for.

Also, saying something that which could be considered inflammatory followed then by a smiley face does not lessen accusations of trolling, but increases them. Food for thought if you want people to not call you out on trolling.

 

[JesterRaiin]

So because kids may play it, it automatically means it's a bad lesson? And BioWare should do what exactly - if restricting the age of the audience doesn't work, how do they avoid screwing up the children?

Oh, c'mon, you don't really think that with all this hype kids won't try ME.

Again, you didn't answer the question - if kids may play it, what exactly must BioWare do? They clearly don't want kids to play the game. They shouldn't make their games for kids when the game isn't for kids.

I answered it.
To be honest, i'm not sure who exactly ME is aimed at. Adults mostly know and prefer rather gray area, not some b/w path.

By the same account, porn movies teach awfully bad lessons to kids. Seriously porn industry... Is it really the best lessons to teach youngsters nowadays ?

I may have a bit of experience with porno industry. What exactly is bad in such movies nowadays ?

Oh, you mean besides teaching youngsters awful techniquest and unrealistic expectations? How about bad life lessons. Or how about promoting rape? There are porn movies which simulate rape and the poor fragile mind of kids may get the wrong impression from that - that women love to be raped.

Nowadays is the keyword here. I made a comparison between old and new. I don't think that porno industry changed that much since good old days.

KOTOR 2 was made by Obsidian, argument = invalid.

I never implied it. Sorry for lack of precision, but i wasn't able to construct proper "x in comparison to y" phrase.

Again, why did you choose KotOR 2 - you could have chosen Postal. Or Fable. Or Morrowind. Or Shift. Or Unreal 2. Or Blood. Or numerous others. You never established why you compared ME 3 to KotOR 2 exactly.

We have this saying around here : "willing finds possibilities, unwilling finds problems".
Why ? I stated it already. No game you suggested here contains such elements.
Well, now...
We had our laughs, but i don't think you're #1 fan of out-of-the-box thinking and dialogue, so, i bid you good day sir. I've nothing more to say to you.

Did you understand the ending at all?

Which one ? Color me puzzled, but i thought that ME3 had a few endings, and none is officially considered canonical right now.

Except that there is no right or wrong in the morality system in Mass Effect, they are two different ways to achieving what could be considered a morality just end.

Mordin, old chap, have a shiny bullet in the back, courtesy of your buddy Shep !
Paragon : over 9000 !

Also, saying something that which could be considered inflammatory followed then by a smiley face does not lessen accusations of trolling, but increases them. Food for thought if you want people to not call you out on trolling.

Some years ago i've met this interesting guy. We had a nice, a little enlightening talk about nature of things. He told me interesting thing : sometimes people are fools, but sometimes it is you who wants them to be fools.
Just a thought.

That is the message of EA in a nutshell. Do not resist. Do not complain. Just be a happy little sheep handing over money. And there's nothing you can do to change it. It bleeds into every company they touch. Its unavoidable, and unmistakeable. I've seen it many times before, and I'll see it many times again. I have a feeling it works its way into the games so firmly because the people working for EA live under a similar lifestyle. Fortunately I don't buy anything with an EA symbol on it anymore. Things are pretty good now.

I'm not the greatest supporter of conspiracy theories, but during my gameplay of ME3 i got that impression. "Forget it, pack your sh*t bro, take your buddies, find some hideout, live happily ever after".

 

[SajuukKhar]

Did anyone else notice how the ending of mass effect 3 was almost the same as the episode of stargate in which they kill off all the replicators?

In stargate they find a giant ass weapon capable of destroying all life in the galaxy and SG1 uses it to send a energy pulse made up of "space magic" through the stargates to kill all the replicators.

 

[Deadyawn]

I always found that bit in KOTOR 2 hilarious. I would say that I didn't care and then they would all say apathy was death and attack me...and I would MURDER THEM ALL EASILY. Totally undercut their point.

Not really. If you picked a side, some would be dead, and some would be alive. You chose to do nothing, and as a result of that they all died.

Apathy is death.

Yeah but its not MY death so I don't really care.

I feel like we're going around in circles a bit here...

 

[Metalix Knightmare]

I always found that bit in KOTOR 2 hilarious. I would say that I didn't care and then they would all say apathy was death and attack me...and I would MURDER THEM ALL EASILY. Totally undercut their point.

Not really. If you picked a side, some would be dead, and some would be alive. You chose to do nothing, and as a result of that they all died.

Apathy is death.

Yeah but its not MY death so I don't really care.

I feel like we're going around in circles a bit here...

So you admit that the point went right over your head then?

Your allies are asking you to make a choice, kill your mentor Kreia for being sithy, or kill them in an attempt to defend your teacher. It's a crap decision either way, but if you do nothing you have to kill them ALL and you are left with no one else to help or guide you. Even the Droids get in on this! Bad options made WORSE through inaction!

 

[Deadyawn]

I always found that bit in KOTOR 2 hilarious. I would say that I didn't care and then they would all say apathy was death and attack me...and I would MURDER THEM ALL EASILY. Totally undercut their point.

Not really. If you picked a side, some would be dead, and some would be alive. You chose to do nothing, and as a result of that they all died.

Apathy is death.

Yeah but its not MY death so I don't really care.

I feel like we're going around in circles a bit here...

So you admit that the point went right over your head then?

Your allies are asking you to make a choice, kill your mentor Kreia for being sithy, or kill them in an attempt to defend your teacher. It's a crap decision either way, but if you do nothing you have to kill them ALL and you are left with no one else to help or guide you. Even the Droids get in on this! Bad options made WORSE through inaction!

I...huh.
Yeah, I never really got that. I played that game ages ago when I didn't really do much thinking. That kind of makes sense now. Sort of.
When I played that game I never really felt as though I new why I was doing anything. Shit, I really didn't pay attention. Maybe I should go back and play it.
Wait, maybe not. I'd have to go through peragus again. Screw that place.