Lack of gaiety in gaming

[likalaruku]

I'm a woman with an unnamed sexuality who will play any game that suggests two guys are more than just friends. I used to think I was a freak, but now one 1 out of every 10 women is into that.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

Does it really matter that much what a character's sexual preference is? Gordon Freeman could quite easily be homosexual, but would it change any part of Half Life 2?

It'd make the whole Alyx thing awkward... i'm sure Eli made some comments and Alyx blushed at one point, but it has been a while since i've played it. It always seemed to me like she was 'the interest'.

Perhaps Alyx was just 'interested' and he really fancied Eli? That would put a whole new spin on Half-Life 2:3?

 

[scotth266]

Ah, I'm an American, so I was referring to America, of course.
I wouldn't know about Europe/other countries, I was just making a point about my society.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

Uh, what's the swan? And I buy Cosmo. And read it for the articles. No to look at women.

In buying cosmo you are contributing to an industry that objectifies and exploits women and makes a whole lot more girls unhappy about themselves than most of us guys ever will.

 

[Sccye]

This topic has restored a lot of my faith in the internet. It's been really interesting to read some of these posts that have made a lot of sensitive and intelligent points around a fairly controversial issue. Woot.

I think the general consensus on the issue is that having a token homoseuxal character purely for the sake of having a homoseuxal character isn't the way forward. Token minorities are more patronising and actually quite detrimental to furthering the acceptance of any given minorities as 'normal', because they're so obviously 'the gay one' or 'the black one' surrounded by a generally white, heteronormative gender binary.

If I were to try to tackle the issue myself, I'd add some sexual ambiguity to character interactions. Not having a clear cut 'gay', 'straight' or 'bisexual' but adding tearing off the labels and letting people simply exist as individuals. Not quite on the level of Russell T. Davies and his epic bisexual sledgehammer (Watch Torchwood if you're curious to see what I mean), but the odd lingering glance here, the odd comment there; nothing too blazé, but that just hints at breaking the mould a little bit. The best example I read here would be changing Alyx to an Alex - that'd have made HL2 incredibly interesting.

I quite liked the sexual freedom that games like Fable and Mass Effect gave you - where there was no question of gender or specified sexual preference, but that people were just people and you happened to be attracted to some of them and not others. Of course, this is all coming from a white, middle-class, self-identifying straight male so I can hardly speak for the gay community or gay gamers.

 

[cobra_ky]

i completely agree it's not something you should do unless it's integral to the game.

I used to see the reason in this argument and agree with it. But the more I think about it the more I find myself asking what is and what isn't "integral" to the game - If a character's sexuality is not, what about his or her gender? Race? Religion? If I don't need to know what my alien-blasting protaganist does in the bedroom, what exactly about his identity do I need to know? I'm clearly playing the devil's advocate here, but I honestly can see how the line between "integral" and not gets awfully blurry.

sure, generally you don't NEED to know anything about the character. but some like using games to tell stories, and it would be nice if more of those stories included deep, relatable minority characters instead of stereotypes.

that or i guess we could just make every game character Master Chief.

 

[Radelaide]

Uh, what's the swan? And I buy Cosmo. And read it for the articles. No to look at women.

In buying cosmo you are contributing to an industry that objectifies and exploits women and makes a whole lot more girls unhappy about themselves than most of us guys ever will.

The same can be said about porn. Then again, that same argument can be used on a lot of things. Can we please move on from this feminist movement and get back on topic. I do recall any further discussion of this should be PM'd to me, not said on this thread to derail it.

 

[mark_n_b]

i completely agree it's not something you should do unless it's integral to the game.

I used to see the reason in this argument and agree with it. But the more I think about it the more I find myself asking what is and what isn't "integral" to the game - If a character's sexuality is not, what about his or her gender? Race? Religion? If I don't need to know what my alien-blasting protaganist does in the bedroom, what exactly about his identity do I need to know? I'm clearly playing the devil's advocate here, but I honestly can see how the line between "integral" and not gets awfully blurry.

sure, generally you don't NEED to know anything about the character. but some like using games to tell stories, and it would be nice if more of those stories included deep, relatable minority characters instead of stereotypes.

that or i guess we could just make every game character Master Chief.

Ahhh Master Chief, he doesn't care if your black, white, gay, or methodist And he let's a girl tell him what to do most of the time.

No, we don't need to know what the covenant do to reproduce (maybe the tiny ones are boys and the big ones are girls? I haven't played the whole trilogy yet so I don't know), but the campaign does need to show us the political views and moral philosophies of the characters in the game. It's very clear that Master Chief cares for his comrades deeply and that the fact they are people is all that matters, from the very first game when he put his shoulder on that skiddish kid's shoulder.

But what about Cortana? She was a female (as indicated by the voice) but the choice was not to depict her as an disembodied presence (like HAL for example) or a robotic character, she is portrayed as a sexy lady with a shapely bum. This sexualizes an intrinsically nonsexual character. Falling back to the stereotype: "video game girls on the good guy's side gotta be hot" to sell games? Is that integral to the game?

Most video games rely heavily on stereotypes, be they race, sexuality, or religion. its just the way the medium is right now, I dont think it will last forever.

To close this post: I agree with that statement, but gaming is over thirty years old, and it has been that way since the beginning. Is there anything to support that it won't last forever?

 

[ganpondorodf]

The thing is, anytime there's a gay character in a movie or a book or whatever, if it has any impact on the plot it's usually a drama film of some kind. You don't get many gay characters in action movies, and games are pretty much just action... I can't see a videogame adaptation of Milk or Brokeback Mountain anytime soon.

I suppose my point is pretty much what other people... Including homosexual characters in games wouldn't have much (if any) impact on the gameplay, and so would feel totally arbitrary.

 

[Jumpman]

i completely agree it's not something you should do unless it's integral to the game.

I used to see the reason in this argument and agree with it. But the more I think about it the more I find myself asking what is and what isn't "integral" to the game - If a character's sexuality is not, what about his or her gender? Race? Religion? If I don't need to know what my alien-blasting protaganist does in the bedroom, what exactly about his identity do I need to know? I'm clearly playing the devil's advocate here, but I honestly can see how the line between "integral" and not gets awfully blurry.

sure, generally you don't NEED to know anything about the character. but some like using games to tell stories, and it would be nice if more of those stories included deep, relatable minority characters instead of stereotypes.

that or i guess we could just make every game character Master Chief.

Ahhh Master Chief, he doesn't care if your black, white, gay, or methodist And he let's a girl tell him what to do most of the time.

No, we don't need to know what the covenant do to reproduce (maybe the tiny ones are boys and the big ones are girls? I haven't played the whole trilogy yet so I don't know), but the campaign does need to show us the political views and moral philosophies of the characters in the game. It's very clear that Master Chief cares for his comrades deeply and that the fact they are people is all that matters, from the very first game when he put his shoulder on that skiddish kid's shoulder.

But what about Cortana? She was a female (as indicated by the voice) but the choice was not to depict her as an disembodied presence (like HAL for example) or a robotic character, she is portrayed as a sexy lady with a shapely bum. This sexualizes an intrinsically nonsexual character. Falling back to the stereotype: "video game girls on the good guy's side gotta be hot" to sell games? Is that integral to the game?

Most video games rely heavily on stereotypes, be they race, sexuality, or religion. its just the way the medium is right now, I dont think it will last forever.

To close this post: I agree with that statement, but gaming is over thirty years old, and it has been that way since the beginning. Is there anything to support that it won't last forever?

I think a basic comparison between the complexity of games now as opposed to games thirty years ago will undoubtedly suggest that the medium has certainly evolved. Even some of the most cliche moral dilemmas in today's games seem brilliant when compared to the relatively primitive methods of the past. Even the relatively basic moral conundrums of a game like Bioshock (to kill the little girl or not... hmmmm...) would have been unheard of in a game twenty years ago. Pacman didn't need a plot, it didn't need character development or immersion. As technology increases, so does the designers ability to tell story, to ad depth and hopefully shed light on moral or social issues he or she cares about. And as the medium evolves, so to do the expectations of the audience.

It is only recently that designers have been given enough freedom to scratch the surface of social commenting and moral issues, and so far, there's not much to see. But I believe as the medium continues to evolve, so to will its capacity to alter the gamers perceptions and cause him to question things he once wouldn't have. But like any art form, it cant be rushed.

I seriously can't imagine that thirty years will come and go without anyone making a game that features gay characters or examines their lifestyle and perspective.

 

[MiracleOfSound]

I think Fable 2 handled the issue better than any other game.

The mission where you had to help the not overly camp farmer's son to find the right way to tell his father he was gay was great fun.

People in that game who were gay or bisexual dispayed no cliched stereotypes to emphasise thier sexuality.

 

[mark_n_b]

The thing is, anytime there's a gay character in a movie or a book or whatever, if it has any impact on the plot it's usually a drama film of some kind. You don't get many gay characters in action movies, and games are pretty much just action... I can't see a videogame adaptation of Milk or Brokeback Mountain anytime soon.

I suppose my point is pretty much what other people... Including homosexual characters in games wouldn't have much (if any) impact on the gameplay, and so would feel totally arbitrary.

Falling back on the idea that games can't have complexity or anything other than a lot of explosions. Doesn't thsi take us back to the very beginning that games rely on cliches because they are sophmoric? The primary question posed was as someone who is in no position to really appreciate certain cultures, be it homosexuals or holocaust survivors, how can I or should I (I being the everyman of this equation) represent these cultures in games I design.

You suggest that I shouldn't because games aren't relevant to culture. Further, the suggestion in that assessment is that games can't be relevant to culture. Be fair, is that true? FFVII has a highly emotional death scene that makes it raved about to this very day (the one time phoenix down doesn't work), it contradicts the idea that drama is contrary to the medium.

 

[userwhoquitthesite]

Devil may cry 3. Arkham may not have been GAY but he definitely liked the pretty men...


Watch the virgil library cutscene at the beginning of DMC3: SE.

for those of you who HAVENT seen this, or who dont recall, letme paint the scene for you

Virgil is reading quietly, alone, when arkham walks up to him. when virgil draws his sword, arkham slowly, delicately, slides his thumbdown the sharp convex edge, proclaiming that "People inherently fear evil, but occasionally, a person may become... seduced... by evil"

you cant TELL me that isnt extreme phallic imagery.
besides, given arkhams apparent distaste for women (notice how his tone shifts anytime in the game he mentions one) is it entirely unlikely arkham married, but his confliction with an inner homosexual lead him to resent her, thus leading to his fall to evil and the murder of his wife?

also, link to the scene

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W8nD1vBTM9k

 

[Kiutu]

I just dont think it should be forced. As for stereotyping, they exist because they are often true. Not all gay males are extremly flamboyant...but many are. Its more a problem when gays are made to seem bad though.
Games are getting 'gayer' though, if only slowly. Fable series and GTA series for example are bring 'gaiety' to gaming.(Gay Tony anyone, though as Bernie is one example, it is more to the extremes, but its GTA so yeah)

 

[Twilight_guy]

Games are an industry. Industries market to there core audience's cultural tastes (and sterytoypes). Most gamers are middle class white dudes or at least suffer from hegemony from the white middle class. Therefor the game industry markets to these white middle class boys by offering games that show white male lead characters that fit there ideal image. Homosexuals are a minority and so are ignored by the gaming industry.

[digression]You'll also be wise to note that the sexual representation of women in gaming is linked to this advertising to white middle class (and often teenage) boys. It's a function of the social climate the ideal image in the gaming culture. It also reflects a deeper issue in that the ideal image presented is universally the white middle class ideal despite the variety of gamers. This reflects the overriding hegemony of the white middle class onto all racial groups, but that is a digression from your topic. [/digression] That bit of seriousness is a little too much for me *removes pants* there we go.