Lance Armstrong to be stripped of medals

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Longstreet

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Here's my 2 cents on the matter

NO physical evidence (as in, positive dope tests) have been found.
The ONLY evidence they apparently used are witnesses. Because, you know, people never lie.

This looks more and more like a wild goose chase because seriously pissed someone off.

USADA even looks back as far as 1999, correct me if i'm wrong but i believe they had a 8 year 'statute of limitation' thing going on there.

(USA)DA follows the guilty until you prove yourself innocent path.
 

BringBackBuck

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If they strip Lance of the TDF wins, who do they go to?

1999
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Alex Zülle (?98 busted for EPO)
3. Fernando Escartín (Systematic team doping exposed in ?04)
4. Laurent Dufaux (?98 busted for EPO)
5. Ángel Casero (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2000
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Christophe Moraue (?98 busted for EPO)
5. Roberto Heras (?05 busted for EPO)

2001
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Joseba Beloki (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Andrei Kivilev
5. Igor González de Galdeano (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2002
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Joseba Beloki (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Raimondas Rum?as (Suspended in ?03 for doping)
4. Santiago Botero (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Igor González de Galdeano (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2003
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Jan Ullrich (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
3. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ?07 for CERA)
4. Tyler Hamilton (Suspended ?04 for blood doping)
5. Haimar Zubeldia

2004
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Andreas Kloden (Named in doping case in ?08)
3. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ?07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
4. Jan Ullrich (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Jose Azevedo (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)

2005
1. Lance Armstrong
2. Ivan Basso (Suspended in ?07 for Operacion Puerto ties)
3. Jan Ullrich (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
4. Fransico Mancebo (?06 implicated in Operacion Puerto)
5. Alexander Vinokourov (Suspended in ?07 for CERA)
 

RoonMian

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Why is everybody claiming he was never caught cheating? 1999 he and 16 others had a eleveted level of corticosteroids found in a brand new kind of test the athletes didn't know about in advance.

Besides there has been a shitload of eye-witness accounts that he took doping stuff that was undetectable at the time. In the USA you convict people of felonies just because of eye-witnesses and here you ignore all those because you like the delinquent... Telling, really.
 

Jordi

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RoonMian said:
Why is everybody claiming he was never caught cheating? 1999 he and 16 others had a eleveted level of corticosteroids found in a brand new kind of test the athletes didn't know about in advance.
So why wasn't he banned from cycling then, in 1999? I don't understand this. If it (apparently) wasn't a big enough deal then, why is it now?

Darkgoosey666 said:
Hello everyone, this is his official statement on the matter

http://lancearmstrong.com/news-events/lance-armstongs-statement-of-august-23-2012

Definitely worth a read.
That was indeed interesting. Especially because of what he said about how USADA has no jurisdiction, and that a federal court, UCI, and USA Cycling basically all think that USADA has made great mistakes, doesn't play by their own rules and just generally sucks. Does anyone know just how founded these allegations by Armstrong are? Because it seems to me that if the USADA has no jurisdiction, and the bodies who do think USADA's procedures are improper, than what is the big deal?

My opinion is that this is all incredibly said. Whether he took doping or not. If he did do it, than I can understand why the USADA would want to bring him to justice, but they didn't have to be so goddamn gleeful about it. The man is a hero to millions of people, and the USADA should realize that if they are right, that is incredibly said news. But now it seems like they're basically dancing in the street, singing about how they're going to strip away titles that they have no say over. This alone makes them extremely suspicious in my mind, and the fact that they drafted the stupid and immoral rule that they don't even have to prove their accusations if a cyclist chooses not to fight only makes that worse (I don't care if the cyclists agreed to it, it is still a monstrous rule).

Also, I understand that they keep blood samples from doping tests on file. If that's true, why can't they just test Armstrong's old samples with today's technology for the specific drugs that they "know" he used? That would prove beyond the shadow of a doubt that he is guilty. And I know that because of their dumbass rules, the USADA doesn't have to do that, but I just really wish they would. Between Armstrong not fighting and USADA not proving anything, it seems we will never really learn the truth, and that just makes me said.

It also makes me wonder about whether maybe the cycling world is a little too strict about doping. I mean, yes, maybe 90% of the cyclists are big fat cheaters. But I've also heard an interview with a long-retired cyclist (who I don't think was ever caught) who said that it really isn't much worse than in other sports. The governing bodies just seem a bit overzealous. It almost seems that if you took a sip of coffee in 1998 it will disqualify your from this year's Tour.

JoeCool385 said:
Did you just glance over the part of your quote where it says it increases the chances of heart attack, stroke, and pulmonary embolism? Maybe it doesn't increase the risk greatly, but still. Furthermore, it seems to me that tapping and re-inserting your own blood could go wrong if you don't know what you're doing. Perhaps it would be safe (enough) if you have professional help, but many starting athletes won't have that. If all the professional athletes are using this doping, than it almost becomes necessary for ambitious non-professionals to do the same, but for them it would be very unsafe.

In fact, this applies in general. Some kinds of doping may not be unsafe or unfair for well-paid professional athletes, because they can all afford them and required the safety measures. But if you allow it, some amateurs may also want to use it. Some will not have the money for the doping itself (which is unfair), and some won't have the money for the required professional help (which is unsafe).
 

Albino Boo

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Krantos said:
smithy_2045 said:
But there is nothing conclusive to prove it, and until there is, there is no reason to strip him of his titles or medals or whatever.
And they won't until then. The USADA took his withdrawal as an admission of guild, but the UCI which is the only who can actually pull his titles isn't on board yet. They do want to see the evidence though, so...?

Who knows? The case may be a witchhunt or it may be legit. The USADA does seem to have a better case, if their claims to evidence are valid, but it's up to the UCI to decide, near as I can tell.
His former teams also state the Armstrong bribed the UCI to cover a failed drug test.


Lunar Templar said:
are the french STILL on about this?

fuck me ... talk about a group needing to get the fuck over something.

AN AMERICAN BEAT YOU, GET OVER IT
Its the United States Anti Doping Authority that have moved against him. The UCI, which is French dominated, have protected him. His American team mates are the one that have provided the evidence to the USDA and also the have alleged the French dominated UCI were bribed by Armstrong to cover up a failed drug test.






soren7550 said:
As far as I'm aware, the man hasn't tested positive for anything. And I don't see how a US company/group/whatever has jurisdiction over a French sporting event.
The USADA is responsible for enforcing the world anti doping code in the untied states. The UCI under whos remit the Tour de France falls is also a signatory to the same code. As an American, Armstrong's out of competition issues fall under the USADA jurisdiction. The UCI is legally required to recognise Armstong's ban in the same way the USADA is required to recognise the UCI's bans. Armstong chose not contest his ban and legally the UCI have no choice to either withdraw from the convention or strip Armstong of his titles. If the UCI withdraw from the convention cycling will no longer be allowed to take part in the Olympics.
 

RoonMian

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Jordi said:
RoonMian said:
Why is everybody claiming he was never caught cheating? 1999 he and 16 others had a eleveted level of corticosteroids found in a brand new kind of test the athletes didn't know about in advance.
So why wasn't he banned from cycling then, in 1999? I don't understand this. If it (apparently) wasn't a big enough deal then, why is it now?
I don't know. I'm not a fan of cycling as a sport. I just did a quick search because i was absolutely sure to have heard in the news that Lance Armstrong was indeed caught with his hand in the cookie jar/medicine cabinet so I was really surprised to read the claims in this thread that he wasn't. If I had to take a guess why he wasn't banned then I'd say it was because apparently the UCI is completely incompetent in fighting doping in their sport since it has been polluted by doping through and through for well over a decade now. Everybody knows it. Nothing is changing.
 

dyre

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BiscuitTrouser said:
thaluikhain said:
He cheated, knowing that if he got caught cheating he'd get his medals taken away.

He got caught cheating, so...

No sympathy from me.
If he hasnt failed a single drug test what evidence do they have to convict? The entire thing is a complete failure of justice.

Unless anyone can come forward with clear scientific evidence proving he cheated or doped or with a clear undeniable proof he has every right to live his life normally and not have to face baseless accusations.
This. Last time I checked, we had this whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing ingrained in our culture? I also find it odd that after so many years after his victories, they're still bitching about alleged cheating (and it's not like they held back when he was in the sport). Don't they have new cyclists to worry about?

That said, I'm inclined to believe he cheated, simply because everyone else cheats and he beat all those doping cyclists seven times. But my personal feelings can't really pass as evidence.
 
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Erja_Perttu said:
Well, if he cheated, he cheated. If you don't win fairly you shouldn't win at all.

It's too bad he had cancer and all, but I've had a cold recently, that doesn't mean I can win the marathon on a moped.
You're right; that's a perfectly equitable analogy.

Not disingenuous in the least.

Nope.



Is it really cheating when everyone is doing it? I'm not exaggerating; if he HADN'T won most of the races he did, the winner still would almost assuredly have been juicing. MANY participants have attested to this.
 

Albino Boo

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dyre said:
BiscuitTrouser said:
thaluikhain said:
He cheated, knowing that if he got caught cheating he'd get his medals taken away.

He got caught cheating, so...

No sympathy from me.
If he hasnt failed a single drug test what evidence do they have to convict? The entire thing is a complete failure of justice.

Unless anyone can come forward with clear scientific evidence proving he cheated or doped or with a clear undeniable proof he has every right to live his life normally and not have to face baseless accusations.
This. Last time I checked, we had this whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing ingrained in our culture? I also find it odd that after so many years after his victories, they're still bitching about alleged cheating (and it's not like they held back when he was in the sport). Don't they have new cyclists to worry about?

That said, I'm inclined to believe he cheated, simply because everyone else cheats and he beat all those doping cyclists seven times. But my personal feelings can't really pass as evidence.

The curial bit of evidence came from Armstrongs former righthand man George Hincapie who only just retired . George Hincapie only gave his evidence this year as well, so people who have raced in this years Tour de France are involved in this story.

Armstrong has been found guilty after due process, the evidence has been presented and assessed and after which he has been found guilty. Armstong has refused to appeal the decision, he was considered innocent and until he was proven guilty.
 

CAMDAWG

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No matter how you look at it, it's heartbreaking for the sport. If he wasn't doping, and he has to hand back all his wins, then one of the most spectacular and inspirational athletes in history has been hounded by a witchhunt, and his fantastic story and all the positive aspects of his life may be overshadowed by a false claim of doping for the rest of his life.

If he was doping, then the sport of professional cycling which has a million and one problems with drugs almost all day, every day, has lost one of its most famous and respected ambassadors.

It's a sad day no matter what.
 

Adeptus Aspartem

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He didn't want to keep up the struggling and they took it as a "I'm guilty" sign.

As long as there's no proof he did cheat, they shouldnt be allowed to take his titles away.

I'm glad for him, that whatever happens, at least he has a peaceful time with his family. Counts for alot more.
 

Albino Boo

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CAMDAWG said:
No matter how you look at it, it's heartbreaking for the sport. If he wasn't doping, and he has to hand back all his wins, then one of the most spectacular and inspirational athletes in history has been hounded by a witchhunt, and his fantastic story and all the positive aspects of his life may be overshadowed by a false claim of doping for the rest of his life.

If he was doping, then the sport of professional cycling which has a million and one problems with drugs almost all day, every day, has lost one of its most famous and respected ambassadors.

It's a sad day no matter what.
Armstrong?s decision not to contest the latest doping charges against him will seem curious. It will also be interpreted by many as an admission of guilt, and so the question is why, and why now?

Unfortunately, a consequence of Armstrong?s refusal to fight the USADA charges is that we may never know for sure. Might it be that the sheer weight of evidence against him made the task of clearing his name far more daunting than anything he ever faced in the Tour de France?
 

dyre

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albino boo said:
dyre said:
BiscuitTrouser said:
thaluikhain said:
He cheated, knowing that if he got caught cheating he'd get his medals taken away.

He got caught cheating, so...

No sympathy from me.
If he hasnt failed a single drug test what evidence do they have to convict? The entire thing is a complete failure of justice.

Unless anyone can come forward with clear scientific evidence proving he cheated or doped or with a clear undeniable proof he has every right to live his life normally and not have to face baseless accusations.
This. Last time I checked, we had this whole "innocent till proven guilty" thing ingrained in our culture? I also find it odd that after so many years after his victories, they're still bitching about alleged cheating (and it's not like they held back when he was in the sport). Don't they have new cyclists to worry about?

That said, I'm inclined to believe he cheated, simply because everyone else cheats and he beat all those doping cyclists seven times. But my personal feelings can't really pass as evidence.

The curial bit of evidence came from Armstrongs former righthand man George Hincapie who only just retired . George Hincapie only gave his evidence this year as well, so people who have raced in this years Tour de France are involved in this story.

Armstrong has been found guilty after due process, the evidence has been presented and assessed and after which he has been found guilty. Armstong has refused to appeal the decision, he was considered innocent and until he was proven guilty.
Sorry, but what does curial mean? Online dictionaries are telling me it relates to subdivisions of ancient Rome :/

It's probably just out of my ignorance on the subject, but the due process that the USADA uses seems a bit stacked against the defense. Do you even get to represent yourself at the trial? I never saw any media reports on the trial itself.
 

Albino Boo

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dyre said:
[
Sorry, but what does curial mean? Online dictionaries are telling me it relates to subdivisions of ancient Rome :/

It's probably just out of my ignorance on the subject, but the due process that the USADA uses seems a bit stacked against the defense. Do you even get to represent yourself at the trial? I never saw any media reports on the trial itself.
I meant crucial, the perils of post lunch posting. To use the normal court system as model, in effect the USADA have charged him with a doping offence. Armsrtong chose not to contest the charge at which point an automatic ban is applied. In the past other athletes have taken the USADA to federal court in the US over the fairness of the process. The federal court have ruled in favour of the USADA process.
 

Toy Yota

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smithy_2045 said:
Second, Lance wasn't some guy who passed all his tests with flying colors and raised no suspicion until they started a "witchhunt". Throughout the Tour his watt/kg output was consistent with that of known dopers. He actually did positive, in '99, for a corticosteroid.
Hurrr durrr, "Lance is so good, he must be a doper!".

Also, he took corticosteroid with permission from the judges for his saddle sores.
 

Toy Yota

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RoonMian said:
Why is everybody claiming he was never caught cheating? 1999 he and 16 others had a eleveted level of corticosteroids found in a brand new kind of test the athletes didn't know about in advance.

Besides there has been a shitload of eye-witness accounts that he took doping stuff that was undetectable at the time. In the USA you convict people of felonies just because of eye-witnesses and here you ignore all those because you like the delinquent... Telling, really.
Those were for saddle sores... Motherfucking saddle sores, he obtained permission from the judges to apply it.
 

dyre

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albino boo said:
dyre said:
Sorry, but what does curial mean? Online dictionaries are telling me it relates to subdivisions of ancient Rome :/

It's probably just out of my ignorance on the subject, but the due process that the USADA uses seems a bit stacked against the defense. Do you even get to represent yourself at the trial? I never saw any media reports on the trial itself.
I meant crucial, the perils of post lunch posting. To use the normal court system as model, in effect the USADA have charged him with a doping offence. Armsrtong chose not to contest the charge at which point an automatic ban is applied. In the past other athletes have taken the USADA to federal court in the US over the fairness of the process. The federal court have ruled in favour of the USADA process.
Thanks for the explanation, though I'm afraid now I have even more questions than I did before :|

From the stuff I've read, it sounds like the USADA declared him guilty (without physical evidence, just a truckload of witnesses?) without a trial, and he has the right to appeal that decision, but chose not to keep fighting? I also have to wonder why double jeopardy doesn't apply here, considering he's fought doping charges before.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to reply with answers if you don't want to. It'd probably just lead to more questions :p
 

cuzant

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Before I weigh in on this I'd going to try and address the two things that keep coming up in discussions on the subject.

Firstly the 'never tested positive' argument. It's not strictly true and it's not hugely relevant either.

It's not strictly true becausethis [http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden] is an interview with the guy who came up with the test for EPO for the Sydney olympics (for those who don't know EPO was the drug of choice for dopers in the Armstrong cycling era and was impossible to catch for a time. In terms of effects on the body it is a hormone that stimulates red blood cell production, meaning more oxygen can be carried around the body). Anyway in the article it shows that they have tested preserved samples of Armstrong's and found that he did use synthetic EPO to boost performance.

And the reason its not hugely relevant: David Millar, Bjarne Riis, Marion Jones and others. These are all athletes who have admitted to doping (Millar and Riis specifically with EPO) and were not caught by drugs testing. So not having a positive test (even though Lance kinda does for EPO, and another for some form of steroid I believe) isn't proof of innocence, it's lack of evidence of guilt (Think of a murder case where you have several eyewitnesses seeing someone shoot somebody but can't find a gun, they still get a guilty sentence and the 'you never found the weapon' argument doesn't stand).



The second thing I keep seeing is "how does the USADA have the authority to take away his UCI awarded TdF titles". Well they kinda do and kinda don't. The USADA is a sub-division of the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) who set out the World Anti-Doping Code. The International Olympic committee (IOC, anyone sick of acronyms yet?) state that if any internation body doesn't stick to the WADA code then that sport is not allowed at the Olympics. So assuming the evidence is there and stands up to basic scrutiny the UCI will have to strip Lance of the titles or there will be no cycling events at Rio 16.


With that said, personally I'd bet my house that Armstrong did dope in his career. The testimony of 10 former team mates and doctors, the fact the rest of the top 10 in those Tours have nearly all been implicated in one doping scandal or another and the fact that pro cycling in those years is by any measure far quicker than pro cycling today (not just Armstrong but everyone), making it the only pro sport I know of to go massively backwards in speed.

The USADA will have to release it's evidence, which will be interesting to read but I think everything points to Armstrong doping. However it doesn't make his cancer recovery or awareness raising any less incredible but he did cheat on the bike, as did everyone in those days.

The good news is that in the last few years the sport has slowed down, and has many top riders who are staunchly anti-doping in every conceivable which points to it being a cleaner sport now, and hopefully cycling can move on after this and look forward rather than back.
 

Albino Boo

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dyre said:
albino boo said:
dyre said:
Sorry, but what does curial mean? Online dictionaries are telling me it relates to subdivisions of ancient Rome :/

It's probably just out of my ignorance on the subject, but the due process that the USADA uses seems a bit stacked against the defense. Do you even get to represent yourself at the trial? I never saw any media reports on the trial itself.
I meant crucial, the perils of post lunch posting. To use the normal court system as model, in effect the USADA have charged him with a doping offence. Armsrtong chose not to contest the charge at which point an automatic ban is applied. In the past other athletes have taken the USADA to federal court in the US over the fairness of the process. The federal court have ruled in favour of the USADA process.
Thanks for the explanation, though I'm afraid now I have even more questions than I did before :|

From the stuff I've read, it sounds like the USADA declared him guilty (without physical evidence, just a truckload of witnesses?) without a trial, and he has the right to appeal that decision, but chose not to keep fighting? I also have to wonder why double jeopardy doesn't apply here, considering he's fought doping charges before.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to reply with answers if you don't want to. It'd probably just lead to more questions :p

If Armstrong had decided to contest the charge, there would have been a full hearing. Armstrong would have the full use of lawyers and all the forensic experts he liked. Those sitting in judgement would also be independent lawyers, just like a court. The rules allow for bans based on eyewitness alone again just like a normal court. Armstong decided not to have a full hearing by not contesting the ban. So as in a civil case, by not contesting the evidence against him the the process moved on the next step which is an automatic ban. This case brought against Armstrong is relation to multiple uses of doping over a prolonged period and not just the EPO case of 2005.


When George Hincapie gave evidence to the USADA against Armstrong, is point at which Armstongs position became untenable. All the other eyewitness accounts against him came from sources that had an axe to grind themselves and a skilled lawyer could easily damage the credibility of the evidence. However Hincapie has no axe to grind against Armstrong and was part of his inner circle making his evidence more creditable.


From a PR perspective, not contesting the ban is better than having witness after witness appear in a formal hearing and say I saw Armstong cheat. The way he has chosen leaves more room for doubt in the public mind than 10 witnesses saying he cheated. If he had contested the ban, even if he won, the damage would be greater to his reputation.
 

dyre

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albino boo said:
dyre said:
albino boo said:
dyre said:
Sorry, but what does curial mean? Online dictionaries are telling me it relates to subdivisions of ancient Rome :/

It's probably just out of my ignorance on the subject, but the due process that the USADA uses seems a bit stacked against the defense. Do you even get to represent yourself at the trial? I never saw any media reports on the trial itself.
I meant crucial, the perils of post lunch posting. To use the normal court system as model, in effect the USADA have charged him with a doping offence. Armsrtong chose not to contest the charge at which point an automatic ban is applied. In the past other athletes have taken the USADA to federal court in the US over the fairness of the process. The federal court have ruled in favour of the USADA process.
Thanks for the explanation, though I'm afraid now I have even more questions than I did before :|

From the stuff I've read, it sounds like the USADA declared him guilty (without physical evidence, just a truckload of witnesses?) without a trial, and he has the right to appeal that decision, but chose not to keep fighting? I also have to wonder why double jeopardy doesn't apply here, considering he's fought doping charges before.

Anyway, don't feel obligated to reply with answers if you don't want to. It'd probably just lead to more questions :p

If Armstrong had decided to contest the charge, there would have been a full hearing. Armstrong would have the full use of lawyers and all the forensic experts he liked. Those sitting in judgement would also be independent lawyers, just like a court. The rules allow for bans based on eyewitness alone again just like a normal court. Armstong decided not to have a full hearing by not contesting the ban. So as in a civil case, by not contesting the evidence against him the the process moved on the next step which is an automatic ban. This case brought against Armstrong is relation to multiple uses of doping over a prolonged period and not just the EPO case of 2005.


When George Hincapie gave evidence to the USADA against Armstrong, is point at which Armstongs position became untenable. All the other eyewitness accounts against him came from sources that had an axe to grind themselves and a skilled lawyer could easily damage the credibility of the evidence. However Hincapie has no axe to grind against Armstrong and was part of his inner circle making his evidence more creditable.


From a PR perspective, not contesting the ban is better than having witness after witness appear in a formal hearing and say I saw Armstong cheat. The way he has chosen leaves more room for doubt in the public mind than 10 witnesses saying he cheated. If he had contested the ban, even if he won, the damage would be greater to his reputation.
Hey, thanks for taking the time to write this explanation. That pretty much clears everything up for me.

Not asking you specifically, but I've gotta say, Lance Armstrong must've been a real dick to Hincapie for the guy to turn on him right after retiring!