Lara and the trauma of killing

[Gabanuka]

I'm glad that she actually reacted to her first kill. One thing that always pissed me off about games like AC2 was that the protagonist accepted killing so fast.

Personally I'm going by the theory shes running on adrenaline, as soon as its all over im pretty sure she'll start feeling a bit more regret.

 

[dyre]

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

Ah right, I remember that now. Though, I also remember thinking "you guys totally added that conversation to avoid having to deal with the killing-gets-easy-over-time-but-sucks-at-the-beginning issue." I guess your mileage may vary.

It's just a little weird to me that the very first kill was so damn hard but the rest were easy. Then again, I have no experience in the matter, so maybe things really are like that, dunno

 

['Record Stops.']

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

You lost points for using Trope's there friend. Sorry. Can't take you seriously in the least. Your opinion might as well be invalid now. Perhaps you'd like to speak in normal people talk instead of Troper speak? Why not just say, that was just the developers mocking the cliches, or the developers throwing up their shoulders and not explaining it properly? Just saying.

OT: Everything about the new Tomb Raider game seems to be progressing well, I'm actually digging the idea's shown here. Too bad the whole "rape thing because she's a woman" issue got brought up.

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

You lost points for using Trope's there friend. Sorry. Can't take you seriously in the least. Your opinion might as well be invalid now. Perhaps you'd like to speak in normal people talk instead of Troper speak? Why not just say, that was just the developers mocking the cliches, or the developers throwing up their shoulders and not explaining it properly? Just saying.

I can't even tell if you're serious. If you are then know that I'm just torn apart inside knowing that I didn't score your points [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonusPoints].

 

[Risingblade]

I'm so glad I didn't have to stealth in this game, I hate stealth it's so freaking boring.

 

[DioWallachia]

your choices and actions during gameplay actually alter the personality of the main female protagonist and the story, from an innocent bystander to a murderous hypocrite,

Why does that detail matter? Makes no difference to me. In that regard, she has a decent story now and the gameplay doesn't suck like earlier games so it's all good imo.

It's the same kind of journey Jason Brody had only without the amount of cultist mindfuck, I see nothing wrong with it.

Why it matters? well gee, i dont know, maybe its because its a VIDEOGAME? and, you know, audience participation should shape the plot with their actions?

Or you want to play movies instead of playing games? or you like games like Spec Ops: The Line where you are forced to kill and then being called out on it? just an honest question. The failings of Tomb Raider can also be atributed to the fact that they didnt mesh gameplay and story correctly. I will let Total Bizcuit explain it:

20:27

That is why i pointed out a superior game like IJI that does the "breaking an innocent character into a murderer with PTSD" both in gameplay and story. It just baffles me that a game done for almost nothing ends up doing everything that the AAA industry cannot do for some reason.

And then....there is the plot. I know its cliche and all that stuff, and part of that comes from trying to make a Hero's Journey sort off plot, but really? shouldnt this kind of plot be so abismally easy to make at this point given how many times it has been done already?

Spoiler

Pretty much everyone is too stupid to be alive for trusting Whitman at the beach. It's not that it's his word against Lara's about collaborating with Mathias. He outright admits in front of everyone that he cooperated with the Solarii in the palace to save his own neck.

Whitman himself has several stupid moments but the biggest one results in his painful death at the hands of the Oni. He calmly walks towards two armored undead Samurai and tries to strike up a conversation. Whilst they approach him with swords drawn. Mathias had decieved him into thinking that the Stormguard would let them pass willingly but he really didn't need to walk right up to them to introduce himself!

Alex in a massive case of Love Makes You Stupid. The Non-Action Guy going alone to retrieve tools from the wreck of Endurance with psychotic cultists with a hair-trigger about just to impress the girl he's crushing on? Yeah. that will end well.

 

[DioWallachia]

Man, I hate when people post pics without the title. After some internet sleuthing I finally found the game. It is Iji (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iji_%28video_game%29).

OT, I actually liked how Tomb Raider presented violence.

Its a game from 2008 and even Destructiod review it. I am pretty sure that just a simple image is just enough for people to recognize (and i was right, it didnt take long for someone to post the name already, and we are still on the first page)

 

[DioWallachia]

I'm glad that she actually reacted to her first kill. One thing that always pissed me off about games like AC2 was that the protagonist accepted killing so fast.

Personally I'm going by the theory shes running on adrenaline, as soon as its all over im pretty sure she'll start feeling a bit more regret.

But didnt we see Etzio having a fist fight and being absolutely hot blooded about it? i am pretty sure he already beat someone to dead before to the point of being over it quickly.

 

['Record Stops.']

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

You lost points for using Trope's there friend. Sorry. Can't take you seriously in the least. Your opinion might as well be invalid now. Perhaps you'd like to speak in normal people talk instead of Troper speak? Why not just say, that was just the developers mocking the cliches, or the developers throwing up their shoulders and not explaining it properly? Just saying.

I can't even tell if you're serious. If you are then know that
I'm just torn apart inside knowing that I didn't score your points [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonusPoints].

*Slow claps* Well played. Well played.

 

[Epic Fail 1977]

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

You lost points for using Trope's there friend. Sorry. Can't take you seriously in the least. Your opinion might as well be invalid now. Perhaps you'd like to speak in normal people talk instead of Troper speak? Why not just say, that was just the developers mocking the cliches, or the developers throwing up their shoulders and not explaining it properly? Just saying.

I can't even tell if you're serious. If you are then know that
I'm just torn apart inside knowing that I didn't score your points [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BonusPoints].

*Slow claps* Well played. Well played.

I must admit I was rather pleased with myself.

 

[jcfrommars9]

Meh, no one likes penalties for having fun.

However, I think Lara should at least have had a verbal reaction for the next several kills after her very first. Just have the character say "oh God, I'm so sorry" or w/e after skewing some guy with an arrow. Because it's a little weird that she feels so bad about killing that first guy (who was trying to rape/strangle her), but has no reaction to the next ten guys (who are just walking around and get ambushed by her) she kills almost immediately after that.

I believe Far Cry 3 incorporated some verbal responses that changed over time as the character became more of a survivalist; I think Tomb Raider would have benefited from that too.

But she does. She kills a few guys and within minutes Roth talks to her over the radio, says "that can't have been easy" and she says "it's scary just how easy it was". Admittedly this is just a handwave [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HandWave] or lampshade [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LampshadeHanging] (depending on how you look at it) but it's better than nothing.

There's also another time during the gameplay, when more of the men start firing at her and she says "please, you don't need to do this". While Lara feels bad about having to kill, that doesn't mean she won't be willing to when cornered and she often is. Also Mathias hand picked these men specifically because they don't hesitate to kill or have any interest in showing mercy. Lara knows this because she reads it in Mathias' journals.

 

[Ghaleon640]

A game where your choices and actions during gameplay actually alter the personality of the main female protagonist and the story, from an innocent bystander to a murderous hypocrite, who wants to stop a bunch of genocidal aliens by being a genocidal powerhouse? and the story reacts to it by making everyone of your enemies call you on it? and you can avoid all that by not killing anyone if you so choose?

Spoiler

Nop. Never heard that one before. It is OBVIOUSLY clear that the Triple A industry cannot make such a thing for their scripts because its too hard to do. And if they cant do it in 2013, then nobody will, amaright? not even back in 2008.

No sir. What a shame.

Wow you sure seem to rage a lot and pretend that everyone and their cousin knows what indie game you're talking about.

I think OP has some good points for a triple A game, and I don't feel that your one example of a pretty small time game warranted such sarcasm.

 

[Juan Regular]

Why it matters? well gee, i dont know, maybe its because its a VIDEOGAME? and, you know, audience participation should shape the plot with their actions?

Come on now. This is all I´ve been hearing lately. Videogames should do this and that...
Audience participation is awesome, shaping the story by what the player does is one of the things that make videogames unique, but hell, it´s not all there is. Sometimes I just want a cool story with good gameplay to entertain me through the weekend. A game doesn´t automatically suck because it doesn´t offer player choice. People over analyze and criticize games like Tomb Raider way too much.
That being said, I also wish the AAA industry would be a bit more daring and use the medium´s strenghts more, but that´s just the way it is with multi-million dollar productions. They´ll get there eventually.

 

[m19]

Why it matters? well gee, i dont know, maybe its because its a VIDEOGAME? and, you know, audience participation should shape the plot with their actions?

If I get a good combat system I want my proper fun with. How's that for audience participation.

 

[Blood Brain Barrier]

So why not go further and bring some of that into the gameplay?

Because similar things have been tried before in AAA games and the majority of players hated it. People want to feel like they're in full control of their avatar, anything less and they feel frustrated,

But that's the last thing I felt in TR - in control of Lara. Every 5 seconds the control was taken away from me to show a bit of "story", most often about how traumatised she was. And yet I didn't feel that when I was leaping from ledge to ledge gunning down enemies with abandon. Besides, what I'm suggesting isn't taking away control, simply changing it, making it more realistic if you like.

I also mentioned D&D. Is a "to hit" dice penalty also what you call taking away control? Or do you mean taking control of the mouse/joystick? So we really just want our target practice to be done in peace, because it's no different from killing when someone's shooting back at you and you're terrified.

I'm glad that she actually reacted to her first kill. One thing that always pissed me off about games like AC2 was that the protagonist accepted killing so fast.

Personally I'm going by the theory shes running on adrenaline, as soon as its all over im pretty sure she'll start feeling a bit more regret.

Which is a good theory, and makes sense. I do think gameplay is important too. I still feel it would have been a more interesting and challenging game if the realism of survival came into it more, which the game itself proclaims it is about. This would include the limitations/restrictions of using weapons in panic mode.

In other words, it needed to be more than just a third-person shooter with "OMG I just killed a dude" flavored icing.

 

[DioWallachia]

Why it matters? well gee, i dont know, maybe its because its a VIDEOGAME? and, you know, audience participation should shape the plot with their actions?

If I get a good combat system I want my proper fun with. How's that for audience participation.

You do realize that such thing is inconsecuential, right? It will come down to this, and always this for the medium:


At 6:12

 

[DioWallachia]

Why it matters? well gee, i dont know, maybe its because its a VIDEOGAME? and, you know, audience participation should shape the plot with their actions?

Come on now. This is all I´ve been hearing lately. Videogames should do this and that...
Audience participation is awesome, shaping the story by what the player does is one of the things that make videogames unique, but hell, it´s not all there is. Sometimes I just want a cool story with good gameplay to entertain me through the weekend. A game doesn´t automatically suck because it doesn´t offer player choice. People over analyze and criticize games like Tomb Raider way too much.
That being said, I also wish the AAA industry would be a bit more daring and use the medium´s strenghts more, but that´s just the way it is with multi-million dollar productions. They´ll get there eventually.

Its always the same lie we tell to ourselves, isnt it?

They´ll get there eventually
They´ll get there eventually
They´ll get there eventually


How long has passed already since the last time we say this? it seems that the more we wait, the more the developers are producing movies instead of games. And worse, people seem to think that graphics is the way to achieve emotion from games.

When was the last time you enjoyed a game that contradicted its story with the gameplay? how many times can you tolerate to do the same mission over and over on a Final Fantasy game because a plot critical person on the party died, and yet you can ressurrect just fine with a Phoenix Down?

Its not about player choice, its making the story not conflict with the gameplay and viceverza. I am not asking for Deus Ex, i am asking for the script to consider the gameplay as another tool to tell the story rathen than a section where the action takes place.

Imagine how disjointed would it be to have a movie that, so far, its a serious drama where 2 adults confess their inavility to take action in their lives for fear for consequences, but then comes an action scene right the fuck out of nowhere, the adults pull a assault riffle and a bazuka out of their asses, start saying one liners and killing people without caring about the repercutions, and ride a Robot Metal Unicorn while escaping a literal rain of ninjas from the sky out to kill them?

 

[IamGamer41]

When your pushed....Killing is as easy as breathing.

 

[m19]

You do realize that such thing is inconsecuential, right?

Yeah... Sometimes it's supposed to be, that's my point. Because it's a game, and because you participate. That's why 99% of games with combat are unrealistic, because fighting 3 guys instead of 300 is boring. I don't need the narrative to justify that. I don't need realistic consequences for that because there can never be.

 

[Juan Regular]

Imagine how disjointed would it be to have a movie that, so far, its a serious drama where 2 adults confess their inavility to take action in their lives for fear for consequences, but then comes an action scene right the fuck out of nowhere, the adults pull a assault riffle and a bazuka out of their asses, start saying one liners and killing people without caring about the repercutions, and ride a Robot Metal Unicorn while escaping a literal rain of ninjas from the sky out to kill them?

Sounds pretty awesome, honestly.

Look, I know where you´re coming from, I really do and I agree with a lot of what you say. I just think that you´re overreacting a fair bit. Tomb Raider is a good game. It doesn´t change the face of the industry or sets a standard for anything really, but it´s a lot of fun still and it shouldn´t be completely dismissed for playing it safe. And I do think video games are getting closer to realizing their own, unique potential. If I compare this generation to the last, looking at how player choice and narrative are used and presented, I think a lot has been greatly improved.