Least useful/most bureaucratic things at school or work, and why they are there

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aussiesniper

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Mar 20, 2008
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I made this thread because of two things: realizing that over the course of 3 English lessons I have made 28 pages of notes that I will never use again, and finishing a computing project that was not marked for the actual end result, but for the accompanying documentation. while writing 5 pages on the advanced features of "paint shop pro" for the computing project, I was thinking about other useless documentation. why must documentation be so comprehensive of all things done? why should we care about documentation so much? it serves little purpose outside of industries like finance, security and government agencies, and does nothing in most situations but increase workload. Documents do little to prevent corruption, as there is always some way to falsify a document or to otherwise corrupt the information.

On to "least useful" now, the 28 pages of English notes. At no point in most peoples lives outside of an English class will anything particularly important rest on their ability to analyse poetry, so why is it the only mandatory subject in school? mathematics and science can both be left out of the curriculum after you reach the senior years, but English must be taught over all else. I am not claiming that communications skills are useless, nor am I claiming that literacy is useless, I am saying that analysis of poetry is useless.

while the past two paragraphs could simply be passed by as mindless venting, I am certainly not the first to encounter useless bureaucracy and lessons. weather it be a staff meeting wherein no actual relevant information has been shared, or a piece of training in the area of "political correctness" (the overdone example of which being sexual harassment).

so, as I said, if bureaucracy is so common, how did it gain such an important place in modern business? it does not seem to serve a useful purpose, but as the capitalist drive for efficiency and cost-cutting continues, how does bureaucracy stay wedged in there, and how did useless pieces of training manage to get to be so important?
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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English teaches the process of analysis and response, not the act of reading Shakespeare.

The notes you make help you pass the tests you will do, and if nothing else you should make them damn good notes.

English is mandatory because you will[/will] use the skills you learn.

not he acts you perform, you will never analyze Shakespeare, but you will want to spot subtext.
You wont deconstruct poetry, you'll want to pick up metaphor or allusion.

Ect.

Bureaucracy is a necessary evil
 

aussiesniper

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While the process of analysis and response may be taught via analysing and responding to poetry, the notes were not of new information. we were taking notes either on very basic elements of writing (metaphor and simile) or on specifics of shakespearean language (eight pages on learning the old English used in his (admittedly good) plays).

other than this, there are more important subjects to be taught than English. there are only three days in total (per 10-day cycle) where I have no English lesson, yet all of my elective subjects are taught only 2-3 times per cycle. In general, communication skills are useful, and in my opinion are what really should be taught in English.

The process of analysis and response would be best done via debating, as that is what it is at its core. debating involves more useful techniques than poetry, and can be participated in more by students. spotting subtext would best be done, in my opinion, by complex narrative, as poems are normally limited in development due to short length.

however, your view on bureaucracy is a very good one, but I believe that it could be done with much less paper waste and time consumption.
 

Ultrajoe

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Apr 24, 2008
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you are one of those who have a good grasp of english.

they need to teach everyone, from the Dick-heads to the dickens, as such you are taught what comes naturally, while others find it challenging.

Communications skills cannot be taught to the degree of certainty that a syllabus requires, but the course does require vocal or oral tasks.
 

BlazeTheVampire

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I find your views of English class intriguing, as I am of the opposite opinion. I sincerely think, at least in America, that English classes need to be more comprehensive. My entire high school career consisted of reading "classics" and writing reports, nothing more. There were no grammar lessons, no poetry analyses, and absolutely no vocabulary lessons. I sincerely felt like I gained nothing from English in high school. I went to a private school before high school, and admittedly, their English lessons were fantastic in comparison to what my public high school taught. From my observations, those kids in the public school were in desperate need of a thorough English class. If America's high school English became more comprehensive, the college-level English could in turn become more challenging instead of teaching the elements of speech and writing that should have been taught in Jr. High.
 

aussiesniper

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Ultrajoe said:
you are one of those who have a good grasp of english.

they need to teach everyone, from the Dick-heads to the dickens, as such you are taught what comes naturally, while others find it challenging.

Communications skills cannot be taught to the degree of certainty that a syllabus requires, but the course does require vocal or oral tasks.
that's actually the most logical explanation I have heard all week.
 

Duck Sandwich

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BlazeTheVampire said:
I find your views of English class intriguing, as I am of the opposite opinion. I sincerely think, at least in America, that English classes need to be more comprehensive. My entire high school career consisted of reading "classics" and writing reports, nothing more. There were no grammar lessons, no poetry analyses, and absolutely no vocabulary lessons. I sincerely felt like I gained nothing from English in high school. I went to a private school before high school, and admittedly, their English lessons were fantastic in comparison to what my public high school taught. From my observations, those kids in the public school were in desperate need of a thorough English class. If America's high school English became more comprehensive, the college-level English could in turn become more challenging instead of teaching the elements of speech and writing that should have been taught in Jr. High.
Couldn't agree with you more. I used to get good marks in English, back when it was all about spelling, reading, and grammar. I used to be asked if I read the dictionary every day. Now in high school, it's just literary theory (view this book from a feminist perspective, a marxist perspective, a deconstructive perspective, etc) and analysing Shakespeare. Now it's just...ugh.
 
Feb 13, 2008
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We've run into similar problems at work. The weekly newsletter has been cut down from a reasonably well-written pamphlet to a badly spelled, badly punctuated piece of commandments.

I complained quite bitterly about this until I saw one of our shops, no names, where they had a 10 point list on how to scan a product and give change properly. No joke.

In this age of falling education and limited staff, you have to teach some people how to count; which draws the brainboxes down, rather than the other way up. It's a system that removes tiers, rather than promotes each.

More cost-effective, but you lose a lot of the base talent.

With education, you go from the Primary/Kindergarten: do what you want, through the Junior/Senior; do what I want you to want; through Sixth Form/College; learn how to do what I want; to University ; learn what others want to Masters: tell others what they want.

It's a sad state of affairs, but schools/businesses get more results on the amount of people they get to a C, rather than a few to an A+.
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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Just curious about general school stuff (I would assumme mostly the world over) like uniforms, not speaking out of turn, having to get permission to use the bathroom etc.

I mean, I understand that a lot of this stuff is to -teach- you things, like when and when not to speak, how to respect others. But what does witholding/giving permission to use the bathroom teach you? Granted, a lot of people were just using it as an excuse to go smoke, but still. And then uniforms, the only reason I was ever given was that people would only buy 'designer' or expensive clothing, and some people would feel left out or bad that they couldn't afford them. Feel bad like hell, however, maybe some people would, I can't really just base that on my own opinion.

Just seems that in order to teach you about all your rights and reponsibilites as a person that a lot of these rights must be taken from you as if that will make you appreciate them. Overall I know, school is designed to create workers who, at the very least, are literate, and possess a general knowledge in order to perform the most basic entry level tasks. This way even if you've got a lot of scientists, engineers(actually, we've got a problem with that here, where there aren't -enough- people taking up those kind of jobs), business people etc. that the country/government still has a basic workforce to work under them.
As I see it, education seems very little for the purposes of gaining knowledge, or rather, that knowledge is gained through education, but only for the purposes of being a productive worker.

However, having been working the past year or so within' a graphic design studio, I find myself using -none- of the crap I learned in school (Bar maybe anything I learned in art and english). Hell, I failed math and still managed to get onto a third level course even though that's specifed as a requirement that you at least pass ordinary level (not sure of the equivalent elsewhere.)

Sorry, I -really- hated school. And makes me think the only good education is one you come to on your own, that you truly enjoy. But...if that were the case, there would probably be a lot of people who simply wouldn't do much of anything with themselves if school weren't mandatory, and that would be bad for all.

As for work, luckily we don't have one, but I find dress codes make little sense... I realise, the purpose is to somehow present a better image of one's self to other people. Why that should be required in the first place is something I don't get, beyond cleanliness to one's person, and wearing sensible and comfortable clothing. What does a shirt a tie possibly do to increase the quality of your work? Their company, their rules I guess. Only, I'm not aware of dress codes being something that are legally binding, seems more to do with the culture surrounding the workplace than anything else...
 

aussiesniper

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Gothmogil:
Dress codes are, apparently, just there because they are. I would assume that the tradition started similarly to how school uniforms started; by being a "trendy" thing to wear at expensive private schools, the cheaper public schools imitated them to seem better. the same progression happens with names. in the book "freakonomics" [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freakonomics] by Stephen D. Levitt and Stephen J. Dubner, they provide examples of how the common names of the rich slowly change to the common names of the poor. It is not that far of a stretch to assume that the same trend could happen in other areas, such as businesses or schools.
 

Ambarato

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I hated High School school, thank goodness I left a few weeks ago. Exams are annoying but I only have 5 more left!

Now onto schools. ICT, which I took, still baffles me. We had three set assignments and one major project. Now why the hell did I have to do Analysis, Design, Implementation, Testing and Evaluation for all 4 of them? If you were asked to make a database I'm pretty sure they wouldn't ask you for a 50-page implementation on exactly what I did filled with over-sized screenshots. The main problem with this is that it allowed me to CHEAT! If I had a problem with what I made I could just make it look like I didn't. Now why can't I just give them a disk with the database on?
 

BlazeTheVampire

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Duck Sandwich said:
BlazeTheVampire said:
I find your views of English class intriguing, as I am of the opposite opinion. I sincerely think, at least in America, that English classes need to be more comprehensive. My entire high school career consisted of reading "classics" and writing reports, nothing more. There were no grammar lessons, no poetry analyses, and absolutely no vocabulary lessons. I sincerely felt like I gained nothing from English in high school. I went to a private school before high school, and admittedly, their English lessons were fantastic in comparison to what my public high school taught. From my observations, those kids in the public school were in desperate need of a thorough English class. If America's high school English became more comprehensive, the college-level English could in turn become more challenging instead of teaching the elements of speech and writing that should have been taught in Jr. High.
Couldn't agree with you more. I used to get good marks in English, back when it was all about spelling, reading, and grammar. I used to be asked if I read the dictionary every day. Now in high school, it's just literary theory (view this book from a feminist perspective, a marxist perspective, a deconstructive perspective, etc) and analysing Shakespeare. Now it's just...ugh.
Even that's more in depth than what I got. Our quizzes were just rote memorization of character names and events in the books.
 

aussiesniper

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Ambarato said:
I hated High School school, thank goodness I left a few weeks ago. Exams are annoying but I only have 5 more left!

Now onto schools. ICT, which I took, still baffles me. We had three set assignments and one major project. Now why the hell did I have to do Analysis, Design, Implementation, Testing and Evaluation for all 4 of them? If you were asked to make a database I'm pretty sure they wouldn't ask you for a 50-page implementation on exactly what I did filled with over-sized screenshots. The main problem with this is that it allowed me to CHEAT! If I had a problem with what I made I could just make it look like I didn't. Now why can't I just give them a disk with the database on?
That was almost identical to the computing project that I was talking about in the OP. The project was based 80% on documentation, and 10% on the end product (10% for speed and neatness of the documentation). I don't think that graphical designers care about exactly what settings you set a colour balance layer on, but what the image is in terms of beauty and/or effectiveness of the image created.
 

The Lawn

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The reason for the poetry analysis is to start training you brain to think critically and helps open up new pathways in your noggin.

I never took notes, so I don't know how useful those were, because I saw them as pointless time sinks. I have a quite good memory so I think I maybe studied once during my high school career.
 

Uskis

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At my University we have to do some papers which has to be passed in order for us to complete the course. These are not related to the main project we work on and are graded by. Two people from my group has failed these because one of the lectors decided it was poorly written, which angered my friends since they don't think they should be judged on their written language but on the comments. They decided to complain about it, and after a meeting they were told they could try to get a second opinion through another lector (the other guy who was there could not evaluate the papers). He told them however that they were wasting the university's resources by doing so, and told them to just go to the exam in december in stead, to get it over with. They never failed anyone anyways... Why do they fail them in the first place if they can't afford to have them for an exam or be able to revaluate them then??? It's mainly because a lack of funds, but it makes the papers more or less worthless if they can't afford to not let people pass...
 

stompy

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When the tests are placed all in one week, creating a cluster-fuck of tests. (No, not our finals... those'd be worse)

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about (and be glad about it), it's when the teachers decide to place their subject's test in a specific week... and so do the teachers in all the other faculties. The end result is a week with test after test after test.

No, seriously, it is pretty bad. I remember one week where there were 3 tests on the same day, and another instance where we had tests everyday except Wednesday (our sport day, so there was a danger half the grade could leave early for sport).

I mean, I get that teachers need to get the marks to write the reports, but come on, you could do it before the deadline. From what I've gathered, most faculties don't communicate with each other, and it stems from them not really caring about whether the students are are prepared for the test or not, but whether they can fill in the reports on time.

Gar, and it's really impacting on my sleep...
 

John Galt

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Dec 29, 2007
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stompy said:
When the tests are placed all in one week, creating a cluster-fuck of tests. (No, not our finals... those'd be worse)

For those of you who don't know what I'm talking about (and be glad about it), it's when the teachers decide to place their subject's test in a specific week... and so do the teachers in all the other faculties. The end result is a week with test after test after test.

No, seriously, it is pretty bad. I remember one week where there were 3 tests on the same day, and another instance where we had tests everyday except Wednesday (our sport day, so there was a danger half the grade could leave early for sport).

I mean, I get that teachers need to get the marks to write the reports, but come on, you could do it before the deadline. From what I've gathered, most faculties don't communicate with each other, and it stems from them not really caring about whether the students are are prepared for the test or not, but whether they can fill in the reports on time.

Gar, and it's really impacting on my sleep...
Yeah, that's how things work at my school. You'd figure with all the documentation embedded in public schooling, there would be better communication between teachers on what's best for students. If the school is trying to bring up it's overall GPA, it'd make sense to space the tests out so students don't have to scramble to prepare at the last minute. Failing that, telling your students they have a test should come at least four days before the actual test. When it counts as 25% of your grade, two nights are hardly enough time to prepare.
 

fyrh56

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Apr 2, 2008
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GothmogII said:
And then uniforms, the only reason I was ever given was that people would only buy 'designer' or expensive clothing, and some people would feel left out or bad that they couldn't afford them. Feel bad like hell, however, maybe some people would, I can't really just base that on my own opinion.
I assume you never attended private school or were never ostracized because your parents were picking you up with a Volvo instead of a Porsche/Mercedes. It's not "feeling bad", it's social rejection because you don't come from the same caste as everyone else does.
 

GothmogII

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Apr 6, 2008
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No, I didn't but, if I were comfortable with swearing, those type of people can go get f****d.
I can sympathise with social rejection, however, I could care less about what anyone thought of how I dress or what kind of car my parents drove, on that note, a car is a car, it get's you from a to b, it's stupid and hurtful basing any kind of judgement on a person on those types of things. Judge by actions right? Unfortunately, they have every right to think whatever the hell they want about a person, damn freedom of thought! *raises fist*
Best to ignore that crap if you can.
 

crimson5pheonix

It took 6 months to read my title.
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Jun 6, 2008
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But getting back to a point, the current curriculum (at least in America) is a focus on English and History. There is very little Math and Science required of current students. In fact I could have stopped taking Math courses my Junior year as I already had Algebra II, but I still took Pre-Calculus so I wouldn't be a poetic brick of a person. I retook IPC not because I failed it, but because I corrected the teacher most every day.

And for the final slap in the face they don't even take English or History seriously! English devolved from knowledge and communications skills to reading about struggling over adversity. They took out "The Adventures of Huckleberry Fin" which is a great novel for "Life of Pi" which is about a Hindu boy being stuck on a life raft with a sea sick Tiger for 8 weeks! That doesn't even work! It was an insipid story that supplanted a masterpiece for the sake of looking more PC. There wasn't even any critical thinking skill exercises. No poetry analysis, no grammer understanding, no detecting of undertones in stories. The biggest fuss in English was making sure you had the right colored pens. Yes in order to write a paper to their liking you had to do the rough draft, then go over it with a red pen, a green pen, a blue pen, a purple pen, a black pen, and a pencil. It was retarded and it did not benefit us in the real world in any way. I dare you to think of a writing job where that is useful!

They dumb down English, remove Science and Math, and History is how awesome America is and how we are superior.

And of course there are the inane rules about clothing and outer appearance. Some of it makes sense such as no gang affiliations on your body, but for every one of those logical rules there are three stupid rules like boys hair can't touch his back collar or go past his earlobe and no black pants. I can't make something that stupid up, there were no black pants allowed at my school. I am thankful for graduating to get away from that intelligence black hole.