Ledger's portrayal of The Joker in "The Dark Knight"

[kiltmanfortywo]

Anybody can get guns and kill people. What really makes a man afraid is to take his power away from him. Batman has been shot, stabbed, beaten, and just about anything the mobsters throw at him. The Joker actually touches on this with his line "you have nothing to threaten me with, with all your strength."

Take a man who is used to being feared. Pit him up against a creature that flies, comes out of shadows to beat your partners to bloody pulps, is bullet proof, has single handedly stopped some of the biggest shit from happening, and tell this man that all his usual tools, tricks and weapons will not work against this creature. Slightly scarier than a man with a gun, no? Remember that the criminals do not know what we do about Batman. What they do know has been told to them by people who know even less. They very well think that he kills people or is one step away from it.

Kiltman

 

[Treblaine]

hmm, well Kiltman, I sense a debate!

First of all, I have yet to see Batman beat even the most reprehensible villain into a "bloody pulp" as he seems to prefer very discrete blows to disarm and disable them, then tie them up for the police to arrive. Hell, the Scarecrow looks far more annoyed that batman had tied him up yet-again than writhing in pain and fear. When Batman says "If I catch you doing this again..." he trailed off because he had no other cards to play.

Remember in X-men 2 when the machine gun wielding goons invaded the school and started kidnapping the kids and shooting people, did you expect Wolverine to unsheathe his Adamantium claws and just scratch them? No, he was a complete BADASS and sliced those child-napping bastards to pieces. Hopefully in the next Batman movie, he will grow some balls and accept that a murderous psychopath on a killing spree can be killed in the defence of the innocent.

I'm not saying Batman should get some guns and become The Punisher (he just goes too far) but a Katana sword would be useful for when the shit hits the fan. After all, Bruce Wayne used one extensively in his training in Batman Begins. How about he takes a leaf out of Bruce Lee's book of how to teach criminals a lesson with martial arts that are administered with such brutality the last one standing runs away screaming. I mean when you saw him fight, every kick was bone-shattering and every punch was pulverising. Plus, Batman with Nunchucks...

... that's what I'm talking about.

What I want is a PROPER anti-hero like James Bond, The Hulk, Wolverine, Hellboy, the Man with No Name, Jack Bauer, Vic Mackey, Lara Croft and Sam Spade just to name a few. I want a Byronic hero that makes difficult moral decisions rather than dodging them to keep his self-preserving morality, that makes him seem more like an anti-villain. I mean Batman was supposed to be the anti-hero counterpart to Superman that wasn't afraid to get his hands dirty.

Maybe Batman will always be a PG-13 character, showing that killing is never justified even when a maniac is threatening the lives of thousands or shooting at you with a sub-machine gun. Unless you're a cop, then you can do what the hell you like.

 

[Anton P. Nym]

Treblaine, perhaps you're not looking for Batman. Maybe you're looking for this guy [http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0098141/]... but I'm not.

Then again, I am speaking as someone who loathes Jack Bauer with full, righteous, Constitutional passion.

-- Steve

 

[kiltmanfortywo]

Batman does not kill people. Period. There is nothing to debate there, it has been this way for 60+ years and will never change.

And as far as not beating people to a bloody pulp, you seem to have a slightly more liberal idea of that. It is not pounding them to the point where they resemble a pile of red jello but a figure of speech for having kicked the shit outta someone(meaning to hurt/maim/cause massive pain to). But yes, he has gone very, very far into that territory. Remember in BB when Rachel is getting off the subway/e-train? He jumps down onto a thug, and after he hits the ground is standing on top of him wailing away. That is pretty close to what you seem to be looking for.

Asking, nah expecting, Batman to start killing people in the next movie is like hoping Superman will be ripping people in half like oreo cookies, it just ain't gonna happen.

Remember his motivation; his parents were killed by a gunman, so he refuses to use them. He instead brings them to justice vs killing them.

Kiltman

P.S. I know having the threat of a giant "batman" swooping down on me in the dark be enough to keep me from doing most any crime. Except maybe indecent exposure...

 

[TerribleTerryTate]

I've got to admit, when I first heard Heath Ledger was going to be playing the Joker, I just thought - you've gotta be kidding, right?

There was no doubting he was a great actor before the Dark Knight, but his movies were just so...different. If years ago, after seeing 'A Knight's Tale' and '10 Things I Hate About You,' you'd told me he'd play the Joker, I'd probably just have shoke my head.
I was so sceptical about him playing the Joker, and genuinely worried he'd truly suck. What a HUGE, HUGE mistake I made.

For me, this is one if not the best performance I've ever seen by an actor. Not just because of his tragic death, I genuinely believe, if Mr.Ledger were still with us, I'd feel the exact same way. I'd be amazed if he doesn't pick up an Oscar, but having said that, Oscars aren't always based on merit. Have a look through the years, some crappy actors have won them. A brilliant performance, and a good review dude. RIP Mr. Joker.

 

[Treblaine]

Well let me make this clear (and I did state this before) I Don't Want Batman To Become The Punisher! The Punisher is a joke, like Rambo crossed with professional wrestling, I can admire how noble Batman is for not using guns as that comes from how his parents were killed by a gun (apparently the criminal who actually pulled the trigger held some responsibility but the gun gets most of the blame). Guns would completely jar with his serene persona. But if anything Batman should stick to blunt ninja-style weapons but if he goes up against some seriously deadly guys then he should not be afraid of wielding a blade just like Sandy Collora's acclaimed short-film "Batman: Dead End" (a.k.a. the internet viral video 'Batman vs Alien vs Predator').

I'm a real big fan of kung fu movies, even the awful ones from the 70's with terrible low budgets and bad acting. These generally follow a regular guy who must turn vigilante to fight a band of brutal gangsters or oppressive regime. But I've been kind of disappointed by how restrained Batman fought in TDK even compared to BB where Batman couldn't roundhouse kick Harvey Dent/Two-face as he flipped a coin to decide if he should execute a little girl. I mean come on!

The Joker has come a long way from the terrible 60's era of camp comic shenanigans to become really brutally scary though Batman has seemed to lack depth by comparison. And no I don't want Batman executing criminals in cold blood out of revenge or twisted justice, but if the fight is clearly deadly then Batman would be justified in returning with lethal force. It just feels like the A-Team where they never actually killed anyone to spite firing hundreds of rounds. Maybe this was because they were aiming for a younger market with the PG-13 rating so don't want Batman getting into any serious fights, oh no, got to be family friendly.

BTW; do you really think I would expect Superman to rip someone in half? Maybe The Hulk (he actually did that to Wolverine) but not the idealistic American hero. In the comic book series 'No Man's Land', where Gotham City was walled off when the place descended into anarchy after a series of disasters, Superman visited to see if he could help but eventually left on Batman's advice that he didn't know how to deal with this dirty situation.

 

[Divinegon]

First I'll give props to Jack Nicholson. Whatever you think of Heath Ledger, Nicholson gave a very good interpretation of The Joker, as a "bigger than life" type of evil character.

Now back to Ledger. I have to say, in a very long, long time, I haven't felt so edgy as when The Joker was on screen. And it was the character that terrified, you take Nicholson for example with his crazy antics in Batman and you'd think "Oh that Jack is sure a crazy sun of a gun". Because basically, Nicholson doesn't deviate much from his evil roles. He's the kind of guy that gives a loony aura. Now Ledger, like said so many times. He wasn't there, nowhere in the movie would you see anything that made you shout "That's Ledger alright".

And from that, I do consider this the best interpretation of The Joker. Why? Well, take the Joker card in any set of cards. What does it represent? Something funny? Rarely. That card has always represented the wild card. One that in any given card game she's accepted, turns into a game breaker, game ender or simply turns the tables around on everyone. That is what you see in Joker, he is a human wild card. Nobody can guess what he'll do when he appears and no one can guess the effects it'll have on everyone's lives.

And it's terrifying, isn't it? Have a man, take away any consistency on him and you get something that has no restrictions in his actions and thus, no softening blow on his effects.

I resent Ledger's death. I gained true respect for the actor not when I saw him creating The Joker, but when I see the number of roles he did that barely had anything to do with each other at all, showing astounding acting flexibility.

 

[GuerrillaClock]

Batman does not kill people. Period. There is nothing to debate there, it has been this way for 60+ years and will never change.

But in the early comics, and in both Tim Burton films, he does kill a few people.

 

[kanyatta]

Ledger didn't impress me any more than Nicholson did. Javier Bardem's Oscar for Best Supporting Actor was well-earned, he had an amazing performance. Ledger, THUS FAR, is the best supporting actor I've seen all year, but we have to wait for the year to finish out.

This is what bugs me, and bugs me it does.

Themoment an actor plays in their last movie, everyone can't help but focus on said actor.
It's because he is dead god damnit that everyone is kicking up a fuss. Yes it was a good movie, yes he played it rather well, no you should not quote every fucking line that he says at every given moment. This is what happens to me every day. Someone is always quoting a line he says in the movie in their bad representation of his voice. Another things is that because he is dead, his piss is liquid gold and anyone who so much doesn't bat an eye at his excellent performance will get raped by 14 different fans that have only just joined in "the batman craze" and who haven't even probably seen the first one.

That's what bugs me, yes he did a pretty good job, I enjoyed the movie, but he can't of been that fucking great. I hate to say it but, if he wins an oscar for it, it may be that it's a sympathy vote and not just the roll he plays. The way he plays the joker is good, and he does get quite in depth in the character, but if he does win, there will be SOME votes that are just because of sympathy.

Sorry for the rant, it just fucking bugs me that people think that he was the real star of batman, hell even the producers made it seem like the movie focused around him and not really batman.
It's almost at the point where the movie will be called "The Joker.... And possibly batman, but The Joker!"

Does it bug anyone else, or am I just insane?

This is basically exactly how I feel. The Joker's lines are reminiscent of Napoleon Dynamite, in the fact they're over-quoted and in very bad amateur voices. Yeah, the performance was good, but if Ledger was still alive, hardly anyone would have said a word, and there is nothing anyone can say that will convince me otherwise, because I know that it is 100% true.

 

[Shadowtek]

The Joker in this film was the best villain i have ever seen in any live action film. period. Never before has anyone brought so much anger and pure insanity to a character so well. you will be fixed at the edge of you seat watching this movie until the ending credits roll and the theater is empty. This is one to remember.

 

[Serious_Stalin]

He played the role very well and in my opinion is the best joker so far, I think they made a new batman novel to cover his back story called "Lovers and Madmen" which is truly dark, which is what I have come to expect of all the new batman novels and films.
I think credit to how the joker was played also has to go to christopher nolan who has brought upon the new age of batman by making the entire plot insanely darker than any of the previous films (none of which I am a fan of). I don't think this joker would have fitted into any of the previous films.
Having said that I don't think any other actor could of made this role humorous in a sick sick way and be taken seriously (well, as serious as the joker is ^^)

 

[WlknCntrdiction]

This is what bugs me, and bugs me it does.

Themoment an actor plays in their last movie, everyone can't help but focus on said actor.
It's because he is dead god damnit that everyone is kicking up a fuss. Yes it was a good movie, yes he played it rather well, no you should not quote every fucking line that he says at every given moment. This is what happens to me every day. Someone is always quoting a line he says in the movie in their bad representation of his voice. Another things is that because he is dead, his piss is liquid gold and anyone who so much doesn't bat an eye at his excellent performance will get raped by 14 different fans that have only just joined in "the batman craze" and who haven't even probably seen the first one.

That's what bugs me, yes he did a pretty good job, I enjoyed the movie, but he can't of been that fucking great. I hate to say it but, if he wins an oscar for it, it may be that it's a sympathy vote and not just the roll he plays. The way he plays the joker is good, and he does get quite in depth in the character, but if he does win, there will be SOME votes that are just because of sympathy.

Sorry for the rant, it just fucking bugs me that people think that he was the real star of batman, hell even the producers made it seem like the movie focused around him and not really batman.
It's almost at the point where the movie will be called "The Joker.... And possibly batman, but The Joker!"

Does it bug anyone else, or am I just insane?

This is what I thought before I went to see the movie and then I went to see it and was amazed, his acting was good. But we are all a bit biased towards it because he died, we may even watch this film 10 years from now and ask ourselves what we thought was so good about his acting but because now everyone is caught in this furor over his death we are inclined(whether we admit it or not)to think his acting is excellent and that he deserves the Oscar. There has to be a line that you draw between his death and his acting ability, no one can do that right now because we are all still "reeling" from his death and TDK just reminds us that he's no longer going to be able to play the Joker because he's dead.

I thought his acting was excellent, it brought a gritty and realness to the Joker that I hadn't ever seen before but I'm not going to say that there can't ever be a person who plays the Joker better than him, I'm sure someone else could but at the moment he has played the Joker the best imo. I'm sad he died, who isn't, but you can't give him the sympathy vote just because he died, no one can judge him with a clear head because they are biased towards his death and as such will ramp their view of his performance up several notches, "professional" critics shouldn't do this especially since most of us rely on their honest, unbiased views as a guide for which movies to see and which to not, how can we ourselves judge whether his performance was truly great? If those who we "trust" the most can't judge unbiasedly themselves?

 

[Kiytan]

nice review.

If the joker is in the next movie, I recon ben foster could do a pretty damned good job at playing him. (watch him in 3:10 to yuma and 30 days of night - not xmen 3 )

EDIT: thinking about it, he would make a great riddler as well/instead

 

[qbert4ever]

This is what I thought before I went to see the movie and then I went to see it and was amazed, his acting was good. But we are all a bit biased towards it because he died, we may even watch this film 10 years from now and ask ourselves what we thought was so good about his acting but because now everyone is caught in this furor over his death we are inclined(whether we admit it or not)to think his acting is excellent and that he deserves the Oscar. There has to be a line that you draw between his death and his acting ability, no one can do that right now because we are all still "reeling" from his death and TDK just reminds us that he's no longer going to be able to play the Joker because he's dead.

I thought his acting was excellent, it brought a gritty and realness to the Joker that I hadn't ever seen before but I'm not going to say that there can't ever be a person who plays the Joker better than him, I'm sure someone else could but at the moment he has played the Joker the best imo. I'm sad he died, who isn't, but you can't give him the sympathy vote just because he died, no one can judge him with a clear head because they are biased towards his death and as such will ramp their view of his performance up several notches, "professional" critics shouldn't do this especially since most of us rely on their honest, unbiased views as a guide for which movies to see and which to not, how can we ourselves judge whether his performance was truly great? If those who we "trust" the most can't judge unbiasedly themselves?

Or, ya know, he could just be a really good actor and deserve all the praise he's been getting. I for one can say that while I'm not big on all his movies, A Knights Tale has had a place on my movie shelf ever since it came to dvd (read: before he died). And while I would rather drill my eyes out before I watch him and Donnie Darko make out again, he was still really good in that movie. Him dying put even more hype on the movie to be sure, but only an idiot would say that this movie would have tanked if he hadn't kicked the bucket (yes, it's an example. I'm not calling you an idiot).

And anyways, who are you to say that nobody can draw the line between death and acting ability and accurately say that he deserves an Oscar? If anything, it will put even MORE scrutiny then usual on who will get the win. After all, how many people have won post-death Oscars? Three? Four? If he wins, he'll win because he deserves it, and not because people feel bad about his death.

 

[scoHish]

Ledger's joker is what made the Dark Knight so different from all of the other comic based movies this summer. In Iron Man and The Increadable Hulk, there are sections of the story that make sence in the real world, but for the most part you have to suspend belief. The Dark Knight on the other hand had a very real quality to it, mainly because of the fantastic acting and believable characters all around. Ledger's joker especially...

 

[kiltmanfortywo]

In the earlier comics and Burton films, he did kill people but not in the sense that he seems to want. I recall the fight on the top of the church in "Batman" where he is fight the black guy with mad kung fu skills. He ends up rolling and kicking the guy over him. The guy falls down the tower. It is a similar story in the comics too; he is not the killer but mistakes happen. He always tries to subdue his adversaries, if they fall down the stairs or get hit by a bus, it is not really his fault, it just sorta happens.

Kiltman

 

[Breedbate]

You know how some critics rave (mainly the Rolling Stones Magazine, bastards that they are) 'Keep you on the edge of your seat'...?

That's exactly what this movie did. I cried out of joy as the thugs head was slammed on the pencil, and I watched with glued attention as Batman plumbed through the depths of his soul, simply because I knew; this is what movies should be.

Heath Ledger, sympathy or not, played the role splendidly. Do not try denying it. If you can find me a critic who actually had a legitimate reason to rate his acting as 'second-rate', I will eat my words. He won't get any sympathy votes, all his votes will be because he acted insanely superb. Tell me this though... who is there to challenge him? Honestly, I've seen movies go from bad to worse in only my fifteen years of living. With Vin Diesel portraying his signature badass role for the thirty-second time, I've started to think of him as Vin Diesel, not the guy he is supposed to be acting. What else? A movie about a pot-head witnessing a murder? Funny, yes, but is it as dramatic... as breathtaking... and I'd even go so far as to say 'artsy' as Heath Ledger's portrayal of The Joker? I don't know, you tell me.

 

[Poyer]

Starting this off with a bit of information...

1. The oscar award is nothing important, it is infact irrelevant to everything regarding film-making. the Oscars are about marketing.

2. So, Heath died, yes its very sad, but he peaked, so its all good.

now, i dont know what i think of the movie itself, i think the Joker said it best, "im like a dog chasing cars, i would know what to do with one if i caught it". the whole movie just seems to boil down to just that. they had all this great talent but they just didnt know how to handle it. the movie dribles down at the end. they castrate the joker completely, he had a good point to his character and his life-legacy and they decided to go PG-13 on his ass. it just ended in a big "meh" i loved the Joker, but the other stuff, i guess i have to like it becasue it needed to be there in order for the joker to exist.
ill need to wait and see it again to realy form an opinion,

 

[UPS Express]

Yeah, I thought that Ledger was incredible.

He seemed more like the human personification of chaos and evil than an actual person to me.

Does anyone else agree?

I totally agree! His performance made it hard do distinguish the person from the thing he represented.

anyone want to comment on why he told two very different stories as to how he got his scars?

I loved his magic trick with the disappearing pencil.

 

[kiltmanfortywo]

The two stories about the scars is a allusion to one of the graphic novels(I forget which) where he says "If I must have a past, I want it to be multiple choice!" There is no set way the Joker became the joker. It changes in every iteration and even within one.

Kiltman