let's debate piracy and the hypocrisy behind it

[RathWolf]

You know what,just a question to those who support piracy. And please, just give me a straight answer.

Why do you think you deserve to get a game for free?

 

[lwm3398]

i really wished you lived in my country please come with your latest cell phone, clothes not bought from second-hand and a laptop maybe [which is still high-tech here], oh and bring your nintedo DS because i have not seen one in my entire life except in a store. and please find a job where 25 year old student are fighting for a job to clean toilets. let's remember something: i, jack and all the people he represents for me live in an undeveloped country which is still suffering from economic crisis. today i found out that some of my colleagues have tick's because they don't have money to buy shampoo. old computers can run new games if you know hot to improvise. keep oil in a freezer or any non conductive liquid, then find a tub-like thing for your unit, put it there then pour the oil in. then you can overclock for about 2 hours if your lucky and then repeat.
oh did i recall the countless walks through the city to find free stuff? like shampoo? i have long hair and my mother told me the shampoo bought per month stays the same but i need about double so i have to scavenge the city for free samples or take from the 30$ dollars i get a month.
and please tell me how many times did you take partially eaten food from other people table after they left because u can't afford fast-food in your runs from finding free classes to prepare and going to free classes to prepare.
i have plenty of problems and i need something to unwind, unfortunately most of my playing friends are playing halo 2 [original] me being stuck still with halo:Combat Evolved and counter-strike and thrust me i have the biggest motivation to buy halo 2 [and figure a way to make it work on windows xp but that's another issue] but i can't.

I don't see why you don't just cut your hair a bit so you need less shampoo. You could make that sacrifice if it helped you, couldn't you? So why not? Bad thinking.

If you need something to unwind with, read a book that you can find for free. You don't need to pirate games. It's stealing, plain and simple. If you need to unwind with a game, fine, then, save up and buy it. You say you get $30 and try to spread it and use it as little as you can so you have more money. That little bit that you save at the end, keep that, then try to save up for a game.

I understand that you're in a bad country right now. I can't relate to it, but I understand it. But you know what sucks? You flaunting it. You try to make it seem like we're all these spoiled, snotty assholes who are rich off their rockers who own all the new things in the world of technology. We aren't. We simply are saying that pirating is stealing and stealing is wrong, and that you don't need games to live. There's no way to justify it with your sob story.

if you want to play games on steam you need a credit card. somethings that isn't so common in an ex-communist country in which all politician are degenerates who don't lie to people faces and no one says a thing.
secondly i see a trend here: Pirates are second-class citizens. everyone treats pirates like garbage. don't blame your problems on the only guys who are NOT ALLOWED to sustain their point. pirates don't have the right to write on a forum and declare their pirates without a risk of probation/ban or other sanctions.

No, you misunderstand. It's ILLEGAL. You shouldn't try to persuade someone to do illegal things or say that you think illegal things are okay. And what is this point of which you speak? You have not made one sustainable point, all you say is "I need to play games to unwind and I can't afford them so please believe that it's okay for me to pirate them because I need them". Well you know what? You don't. So stop making it sound like you do with sob stories.

in my country drug addicts are treated as victims [which makes sense] and not only did they chose to take drugs they chose to pay for them [and probably selling stuff from the house to buy drugs] but pirates are horrible human beings that can't think and have no regard for anyone.

Of course they are, you can die from drug abuse!!! It's hard to stop abusing drugs and you have to be nearly chained up for a half a year to stop doing them. They are the victims. Nothing is keeping you pirating. It isn't addictive. You don't need these games, there are other, better things to do with your spare time, like getting some of that money you so desperately need.

And I never said you couldn't think, I just said your thinking is a little off. Flawed.

 

[PhiMed]

3. Piracy has the same effect on game developers as renting games or buying used games, they don't get a single penny from them. These two are perfectly legal.

Except for the fact that rental retailers have to PURCHASE copies of the games, meaning more sales for the Dev. rental retailers also acquire copies for re-sale and provide another advertising outlet for the devs. This arrangement is still mutually beneficial.

The crackers buy the game first as well.

Biiig difference..... a couple dozen crackers can feed millions and millions of hacked copies while there are thousands of sales to retail establishments that are lucky if they make their money back on the rental itself. The ratio is so very different that you can't even compare the two in terms of lost sales.

Millions? I think not.

You make it sound like the retailer is struggling. Surely if it were the case they would stop running them?

Most brick-and-mortar rental places have gone out of business, which is why Gamefly exists, because only by taking advantage of economies of scale are they able to make a decent profit. Excellent precognitive skill!

The point is, beyond the original purchase, the devs see no more money. The retailer gets to sell the game, then sell the same game an indefinate amount of times without paying the developers. Bare in mind also the size of games retailers compared to the piracy scene, used games and renting costs the developers waaaaay more in imaginary currency.

Retail sales companies are only able to sell each copy they purchase once. Retail rental companies purchase each rentable copy at full retail price (often with a premium paid to the publisher for right to rent). Also, the amount of time their customers are able to enjoy the game is limited by the number of copies they purchase (24 hours * number of days renter owns game * number of copies purchased). Pirates purchase one copy, and are able to (in theory) provide an infinite number of hours of gameplay to downloaders.

 

[RathWolf]

from where do they have the numbers?

Piracy numbers: http://torrentfreak.com/the-most-pirated-games-of-2009-091227/

The data for these lists is collected by TorrentFreak from several sources, including reports from all public BitTorrent trackers. All the data is carefully checked and possible inaccuracies are systematically corrected.

 

[TPiddy]

Millions? I think not.

You make it sound like the retailer is struggling. Surely if it were the case they would stop running them?

The point is, beyond the original purchase, the devs see no more money. The retailer gets to sell the game, then sell the same game an indefinate amount of times without paying the developers. Bare in mind also the size of games retailers compared to the piracy scene, used games and renting costs the developers waaaaay more in imaginary currency.

Actually, rental retailers are struggling. Game development studios are closing. They've started limiting their supply because less people are renting, and this in turn means less copies purchased and less money from devs.

My point... is that the initial purchase from a rental retailer of a copy intended to be used for renting on average is rented by let's say, 100 people over the course of it's life before being sold by the retailer. Whereas a pirated copy is typically distributed to hundreds of thousands of users with no money exchanged at all. So not only do the devs miss out, but the rental retailers miss out as well.

 

[JonnWood]

Your fictional character can afford a computer and full speed internet?

I see some contradictions in this testimony.

"OBJECTION!"

"It's their own fault for not guarding it very well, so I'm going to steal it."

Actually, pirates will steal something because it's guarded well. DRM, dontcha know.

 

[secretsantaone]

3. Piracy has the same effect on game developers as renting games or buying used games, they don't get a single penny from them. These two are perfectly legal.

Except for the fact that rental retailers have to PURCHASE copies of the games, meaning more sales for the Dev. rental retailers also acquire copies for re-sale and provide another advertising outlet for the devs. This arrangement is still mutually beneficial.

The crackers buy the game first as well.

Biiig difference..... a couple dozen crackers can feed millions and millions of hacked copies while there are thousands of sales to retail establishments that are lucky if they make their money back on the rental itself. The ratio is so very different that you can't even compare the two in terms of lost sales.

Millions? I think not.

You make it sound like the retailer is struggling. Surely if it were the case they would stop running them?

Most brick-and-mortar rental places have gone out of business, which is why Gamefly exists, because only by taking advantage of economies of scale are they able to make a decent profit. Excellent precognitive skill!

The point is, beyond the original purchase, the devs see no more money. The retailer gets to sell the game, then sell the same game an indefinate amount of times without paying the developers. Bare in mind also the size of games retailers compared to the piracy scene, used games and renting costs the developers waaaaay more in imaginary currency.

Retail sales companies are only able to sell each copy they purchase once. Retail rental companies purchase each rentable copy at full retail price (often with a premium paid to the publisher for right to rent). Also, the amount of time their customers are able to enjoy the game is limited by the number of copies they purchase (24 hours * number of days renter owns game * number of copies purchased). Pirates purchase one copy, and are able to (in theory) provide an infinite number of hours of gameplay to downloaders.

Many retails stores run a trade-in system where they will pay pittance for a game and resell it for about half of retail price. This happens thousands of times a day all over the world. The developers don't see a penny. The developers lose millions in 'potential sales' to people who simply wait to buy it used rather than new.

 

[Petromir]

The real question is: Why is piracy illegal? Supposedly it is because it leads to lost revenue for those who create the content. YES, in much the same way that libraries lead to lost revenue for books and are thus illegal. OH WAIT. To read an interesting viewpoint on online piracy from a content creator in general look up Eric Flint and the Baen Free Library (baen.com/library).

You do realise that each time a book is taken out from a libary money is paid to the those who'd get the money from a purchase, its not as much as they get from a sale, but it adds up.

Hmmm... Not sure if true... I'm thinking no, at least in my country.

It is in the UK, I can't believe it isnt true elswhere.

 

[TPiddy]

Many retails stores run a trade-in system where they will pay pittance for a game and resell it for about half of retail price. This happens thousands of times a day all over the world. The developers don't see a penny. The developers lose millions in 'potential sales' to people who simply wait to buy it used rather than new.

This is true, but it's also the lesser of two evils as... retailers will typically have already purchased new copies of said game from the devs, and retailer profit margins on the used game sales are way smaller. Additionally, rental retailers still have to sustain themselves and be profitable in order to provide a medium for developers to distribute their content. It's a necessary evil. Piracy on the other hands, generates no revenue for any party involved save the few original copies purchased for making the pirated versions.

EDIT: Not to mention, most stores only give store credit, which is then likely turned around and used on new games anyhow. For example. I traded in my copy of Dragon Age: Origins and used my credit to purchase a copy of Dragon Age: Awakenings. I've still purchased full license versions of both games so Bioware gets their due, even if I used store credit to do it.

 

[RathWolf]

3. Piracy has the same effect on game developers as renting games or buying used games, they don't get a single penny from them. These two are perfectly legal.

Except for the fact that rental retailers have to PURCHASE copies of the games, meaning more sales for the Dev. rental retailers also acquire copies for re-sale and provide another advertising outlet for the devs. This arrangement is still mutually beneficial.

The crackers buy the game first as well.

Biiig difference..... a couple dozen crackers can feed millions and millions of hacked copies while there are thousands of sales to retail establishments that are lucky if they make their money back on the rental itself. The ratio is so very different that you can't even compare the two in terms of lost sales.

Millions? I think not.

You make it sound like the retailer is struggling. Surely if it were the case they would stop running them?

Most brick-and-mortar rental places have gone out of business, which is why Gamefly exists, because only by taking advantage of economies of scale are they able to make a decent profit. Excellent precognitive skill!

The point is, beyond the original purchase, the devs see no more money. The retailer gets to sell the game, then sell the same game an indefinate amount of times without paying the developers. Bare in mind also the size of games retailers compared to the piracy scene, used games and renting costs the developers waaaaay more in imaginary currency.

Retail sales companies are only able to sell each copy they purchase once. Retail rental companies purchase each rentable copy at full retail price (often with a premium paid to the publisher for right to rent). Also, the amount of time their customers are able to enjoy the game is limited by the number of copies they purchase (24 hours * number of days renter owns game * number of copies purchased). Pirates purchase one copy, and are able to (in theory) provide an infinite number of hours of gameplay to downloaders.

Many retails stores run a trade-in system where they will pay pittance for a game and resell it for about half of retail price. This happens thousands of times a day all over the world. The developers don't see a penny. The developers lose millions in 'potential sales' to people who simply wait to buy it used rather than new.

One copy of a game, pirated, can provide thousands of people with copies of a game within a day. This can reach millions within weeks.

One copy of a game used, can provide one person with access to the game. Then, after they are finished, one more person can have access to the game. If during this time, some one else wants to buy the game, they will have to buy another copy.

See the big difference?

 

[JonnWood]

The developers don't see a penny.

Yes they do; when someone first purchases the game. There's also the fact that piracy is fractal, not linear; an effectively infinite number of people can play a pirated game, while only one person can play a used one at a time, no matter how many times it's sold.

 

[secretsantaone]

Many retails stores run a trade-in system where they will pay pittance for a game and resell it for about half of retail price. This happens thousands of times a day all over the world. The developers don't see a penny. The developers lose millions in 'potential sales' to people who simply wait to buy it used rather than new.

This is true, but it's also the lesser of two evils as... retailers will typically have already purchased new copies of said game from the devs, and retailer profit margins on the used game sales are way smaller. Additionally, rental retailers still have to sustain themselves and be profitable in order to provide a medium for developers to distribute their content. It's a necessary evil. Piracy on the other hands, generates no revenue for any party involved save the few original copies purchased for making the pirated versions.

Food for thought indeed.

However, my original point was not which was worse, but that other means through which the developers lose thousands of sales already exist, leading to this very rational debate.

Anyway TF2 time :3

 

[TPiddy]

Ultimately, a small amount of piracy is not a problem.... when piracy runs rampant, then you get into bigger problems. For example... look at the music industry.

The music industry now, more than ever, manufactures talent that it believes will have the best chance of being successful, while indie acts are forced to grind it out for years and push their music out for free in the hopes of some day becoming successful. This has somewhat stifled creativity and access to said creativity. It's also forcing many bands to become more 'commercial' as big tours are the only way they can really make money.

We're starting to see some of this in the gaming industry now as franchise cash cows are being milked to death as they are 'safe bets' while some of the more creative and open releases are falling by the wayside because the bar for a game to be successful has been set very high, in part due to piracy.

 

[numaiomul]

if you want to play games on steam you need a credit card. somethings that isn't so common in an ex-communist country in which all politician are degenerates who lie to people faces and no one says a thing.
secondly i see a trend here: Pirates are second-class citizens. everyone treats pirates like garbage. don't blame your problems on the only guys who are NOT ALLOWED to sustain their point. pirates don't have the right to write on a forum and declare their pirates without a risk of probation/ban or other sanctions.

No, you misunderstand. It's ILLEGAL. You shouldn't try to persuade someone to do illegal things or say that you think illegal things are okay. And what is this point of which you speak? You have not made one sustainable point, all you say is "I need to play games to unwind and I can't afford them so please believe that it's okay for me to pirate them because I need them". Well you know what? You don't. So stop making it sound like you do with sob stories.

as i said earlier i'm not pro-piracy, i'm anti-anti-piracy and pro-finding way to help people buy the games they like. treat the piracy problem like a wound and find a way to heal it. and besides it's easy for people to say to quit something but when that something is all you have it's a bit hard. quit finding ways to be anti-piracy and find ways to help people buy games. i've been reading through all the posts and i haven't seen one persona to recommend something else then free games [tested A LOT of them, cave story rocks btw]

in my country drug addicts are treated as victims [which makes sense] and not only did they chose to take drugs they chose to pay for them [and probably selling stuff from the house to buy drugs] but pirates are horrible human beings that can't think and have no regard for anyone.

Of course they are, you can die from drug abuse!!! It's hard to stop abusing drugs and you have to be nearly chained up for a half a year to stop doing them. They are the victims. Nothing is keeping you pirating. It isn't addictive. You don't need these games, there are other, better things to do with your spare time, like getting some of that money you so desperately need.

And I never said you couldn't think, I just said your thinking is a little off. Flawed.

they chose to take drugs. they don't have the willpower to quit drugs because they have an addictive nature. pirate chose to take games. that's their nature. and besides: you can die from games last time i checked.

You know what,just a question to those who support piracy. And please, just give me a straight answer.

Why do you think you deserve to get a game for free?

i never said i deserve a game, and i never said i'm doing something good and i'm not trying to make excuses for myself. in a country like this a conscious brings only trouble and most go insane by the time they reach 14. i'm trying to make a bridge between developers and pirates so that developers find out what pirates what [i am speaking of the ones that genuinely don't have the means to buy i game but still want it] and sell their game and make some profit and the pirates get a legit game with full feature thus everybody is happy. if we keep a chasm between pirates and developers stuff like DRM will seem child's play compared to the future security measures.

 

[TPiddy]

i never said i deserve a game, and i never said i'm doing something good and i'm not trying to make excuses for myself. in a country like this a conscious brings only trouble and most go insane by the time they reach 14. i'm trying to make a bridge between developers and pirates so that developers find out what pirates what [i am speaking of the ones that genuinely don't have the means to buy i game but still want it] and sell their game and make some profit and the pirates get a legit game with full feature thus everybody is happy. if we keep a chasm between pirates and developers stuff like DRM will seem child's play compared to the future security measures.

Well, then tell us why we should have to pay for it while you don't have to? Should the government grant you special designation? Maybe add a games budget to your welfare cheque?

Our problem is not with you and your kind. Our problem is with those who can afford it but choose not to pay for it. Now, the reason there is no system in place to say that it's ok for you to get it for free and not someone who can afford it (like food stamps, for example) is because games are ENTERTAINMENT. They are a non-essential luxury item, meaning that YOU are no better than anyone who CAN afford it but pirates it anyways.

This is my whole complaint. Why should I have to pay when you don't? Hell, in that case, why should any of us have to pay when you don't? We are paying for and supporting the industry while you leech off it for free.

 

[JonnWood]

they chose to take drugs. they don't have the willpower to quit drugs because they have an addictive nature. pirate chose to take games. that's their nature.

Uh...huh...

and besides: you can die from games last time i checked.

Through self-neglect and loss of emotional control, yes, not as a direct consequence.

Yi'm trying to make a bridge between developers and pirates so that developers find out what pirates what [i am speaking of the ones that genuinely don't have the means to buy i game but still want it]

They want something for free, and no amount of moral St.Vitus dancing will change that.

and sell their game and make some profit and the pirates get a legit game with full feature thus everybody is happy.

A pirate, by definition, is someone who doesn't want to pay for a game. Even 99cent iPhone games are being pirated. If you can afford an iPhone, but not spend less than the amount of a fast food lunch on a game, you need to reprioritize.

we keep a chasm between pirates and developers stuff like DRM will seem child's play compared to the future security measures.

Blame pirates, not devs. It's nice to act like devs came up with DRM out of the blue, but it's a defensive measure, not a preventative one.

 

[numaiomul]

read next post. i fail at deleting and editing posts on this forum.

 

[numaiomul]

i'm not talking about the bad type of pirates. the one that HAVE money but don't pay. i'm taking about the ones that don't have money and would pay. they both are called the same way and treated the same way despite intentions. if the G(ood)Pirates would have an opportunity to buy a game they would. i for one am still looking for a halo 2 game and still clicking ads to make 4 cents a day. the B(ad)Pirates will always steal no matter what you do so you don't have to bother with them. a drug addict must be allowed to confess before he can get help but pirating is shot in the foot from the start.

and besides: you can die from games last time i checked.

Through self-neglect and loss of emotional control, yes, not as a direct consequence.

You can die from aspirin as i recall. the fact that you can die from something and not from another isn't a very good argument. and besides drug-addicts usually manifest self-neglect and loss of emotional control [or having it before they started taking the drugs.[/quote]

i never said i deserve a game, and i never said i'm doing something good and i'm not trying to make excuses for myself. in a country like this a conscious brings only trouble and most go insane by the time they reach 14. i'm trying to make a bridge between developers and pirates so that developers find out what pirates what [i am speaking of the ones that genuinely don't have the means to buy i game but still want it] and sell their game and make some profit and the pirates get a legit game with full feature thus everybody is happy. if we keep a chasm between pirates and developers stuff like DRM will seem child's play compared to the future security measures.

Well, then tell us why we should have to pay for it while you don't have to? Should the government grant you special designation? Maybe add a games budget to your welfare cheque?

Our problem is not with you and your kind. Our problem is with those who can afford it but choose not to pay for it. Now, the reason there is no system in place to say that it's ok for you to get it for free and not someone who can afford it (like food stamps, for example) is because games are ENTERTAINMENT. They are a non-essential luxury item, meaning that YOU are no better than anyone who CAN afford it but pirates it anyways.

This is my whole complaint. Why should I have to pay when you don't? Hell, in that case, why should any of us have to pay when you don't? We are paying for and supporting the industry while you leech off it for free.

No one said you should pay for a game. You have the financial possibilities to make the choice of buying games [probably even regularly] and you made it. most of us in my country don't have that choice available. i'm not saying we're good or bad i'm saying we're a bit more limited.