Let's say we had a choice to not use the white phosphorous (Spec Ops: The Line spoilers)

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Spector29

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Oct 16, 2009
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Telling the player they can just turn the game off really urks me. If you force me to do something, then spend the rest of the game hating me for it, it's really not my fault. True, I could have turned the game off, but that's a waste of my time and money.

If I have to pay for a game the developers seemingly don't want me to play, they don't get to whine when I am forced to do things they made me do if I want to progress.

Saying i'm just like Walker and that I didn't have to play it isn't a valid argument, because the devs wanted people to play it. They don't get to have their cake and eat it, too.
 

Sectan

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Aug 7, 2011
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Gethsemani said:
Sectan said:
I'm seeing a lot of "The point of the game is to see whether you keep playing or not." Don't know about you, but if I had dropped cash to get the game I'd keep playing it. Or at least get pissed off for the game going "YOU MONSTER YOU DIDN'T QUIT PLAYING A GAME YOU SHELLED OUT CASH FOR HOW DARE YOU!"
Welcome to the world of deconstructions, this is pretty much how lots of satirical or counter-culture art works. Sure, it might not be very nice to the consumer, but on the other hand I as a consumer also paid money to play a wargame in which I would perform war crimes...
You're probably right, but it still seems wrong to me.

"HERE KIDS PLAY THIS AWESOME MILITARY SHOOTER!"
"Ok Spec Ops we'll try it out!"
"Oh by the way you are all monsters and terrible people you should feel bad about yourselves! If you were a decent human being you would have quit playing! Thanks for the cash though."
 

Hargrimm

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Rednog said:
People harp on the game because the game spends a great deal of time harping that there's always a choice and when it actually matter they take the choice away from you and then harp on and on about how you're the bad guy for making a choice when you didn't actually make one. And please don't give me the bs of "you could've turned off the game", that's not making a choice at all, that's a non choice. If I'm supposed to be in Walker's shoes and actually care about what happens in the game then I don't have the choice to poof out of existence.
When does the game ever do that? All choices in this game are false choices.
Whether you shoot the prisoner or not, the 33rd will always fight you.
Gould always dies and the civialians will die of dehydration like the rest.
The two hanging dudes are already dead and the snipers will always attack you.
Riggs always dies.
The mob either gets shot or dies of dehydration.
You can't affect the narrative. I don't know where you got the idea that you could.

In the WP phosphorus scene Walker all but outright tells you that there is no choice.

If you look at that scene logically, it's also obvious that there is no choice but to use it. Three dudes with rifles and possibly some grenades against a fortified and entrenched position with vastly superior numbers and vehicle support?
Only in those bullshit macho-man jingoistic power fantasies of modern military shooters that Spec-Ops spends the whole game deconstructing would that even occur to someone as a possibility.

In a more realistic game like ARMA or Operation:Flashpoint you'd have no chance at all.
 

BakaSmurf

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Dec 25, 2008
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Murais said:
snip

BakaSmurf said:
saintdane05 said:
Is this developer willing to happily refund the full $60 that many paid on day one to get the game to begin with? Somehow I doubt it, which frankly, causes the validity of their argument to go soaring out the window. Expecting someone to put aside a game you made them pay a good deal of money for and call them a MUNSTAR! for doing otherwise is an absolutely bullshit move.
You're the one who paid $60 to shoot people in the desert. Don't be surprised if the game then uses that fact to call your morals into question.
If that's the case I'm going to call into question the morals of the guys that developed a game about shooting people in the desert in which slaughtering civilians is made necessary to progress in the game, 'specially when nobody forced said developers to make killing civs mandatory and most people got said game to begin with to shoot people that had until that point been believed to be attempting to kill said civilians. Funny how that argument can cut both ways, no?
 
Jun 16, 2010
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The whole point of that scene is that you don't have a choice.
Just like soldiers in the real world don't have the luxury to refuse orders or take a contrived "good" option and have everything work out.

You're supposed to be thinking "I'm the hero, damnit! Sure I killed a bunch of innocents, but I only did it because it was the only way to continue my mission!"
 

BakaSmurf

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Dec 25, 2008
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j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
BakaSmurf said:
j-e-f-f-e-r-s said:
Murais said:
snip

BakaSmurf said:
saintdane05 said:
Is this developer willing to happily refund the full $60 that many paid on day one to get the game to begin with? Somehow I doubt it, which frankly, causes the validity of their argument to go soaring out the window. Expecting someone to put aside a game you made them pay a good deal of money for and call them a MUNSTAR! for doing otherwise is an absolutely bullshit move.
You're the one who paid $60 to shoot people in the desert. Don't be surprised if the game then uses that fact to call your morals into question.
If that's the case I'm going to call into question the morals of the guys that developed a game about shooting people in the desert in which slaughtering civilians is made necessary to progress in the game, 'specially when nobody forced said developers to make killing civs mandatory and most people got said game to begin with to shoot people that had until that point been believed to be attempting to kill said civilians. Funny how that argument can cut both ways, no?
Yager explicitly didn't endorse the act

[HEADING=3]Yager explicitly didn't endorse the act[/HEADING]

[HEADING=2]Yager explicitly didn't endorse the act[/HEADING]

[HEADING=1]Yager explicitly didn't endorse the act[/HEADING]
And the players that have nothing but complaints about being rail-roaded into performing the act by Yager did? Finding the action you're forcing someone else to do morally reprehensible doesn't change the fact that you gave them no other choice but to do it. It MAY have had a HELL of a lot more of an emotional impact if using the white phosphorous was optional (this could have been easily achieved by having the mortar have regular bombs available for use alongside the WP bombs), but it wasn't, and the in-game and mechanical explanation for NEEDING to use it is hacky at best, making it very, very clear that the lead writer just wasn't up to chops for making the player feel shitty for something they did without literally forcing the decision down their throat.

So no, my argument is nothing like claiming Moore endorses genocide because he didn't force the people watching the movie commit the action themselves followed by attempting to act morally superiour towards the people he forced said action upon.

And if you're going to try and pull that "YOU CuLD HAVE TURNDED DEH GARME OFF AT ANY TIM HURR DURR DURRRRR!!!1!" crap just say it now so I can cease attempting to debate with you when you choose to stick by that hilariously flawed argument... But if you are going to try a well thought out rebuttal that isn't just repeated half-baked spew by the lead dev that is on the same level of Corey Hudson's "artistic integrity" bull shite, then by all means, go right on ahead good sir. Otherwise, I won't even bother replying anymore.

EDIT: Incidentally, I just remembered a sequence from Homefront, a modern military shooter that at one point forces you to witness the horrible effects of WP mortar bombs and does a much, much better job of making you understand that these things should be banned for use against human beings, which is just sad, because Homefront's writing was sub-par, at best, which really says a lot about Spec Ops' writing in turn.
 

Thoughtful_Salt

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I personally wasn't that all affected by the white phosphorous scene. Sure, it bugged me a bit, but it didn't really hit me. What did hit me was the scene where you are faced with the choice of shooting or not shooting a crowd of civilians who had just killed lugo. That was a powerful experience for me.
 

Weaver

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Apr 28, 2008
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saintdane05 said:
But guys... you do have a choice! Its there, since the beginning of the game!


You turn the game off. The thing wasn't barraging you for killing the civilians, it was barraging you for doing so under blind orders. The only way to win is to not play. This has come from one of the head developers.
Let's all not even buy their next game, then we'll all be the ULTIMATE winners! Just leave the thing on the shelf and not even participate, the studio will close and then there will be no more vile depictions of war. We'll have ended all war itself, and be sung as heroes and fantastic players by the developer.

I quit around 30 minutes after the very obviously telegraphed white phosphorous scene because I was bored of the incredibly bland mechanics and tired of the game's trite, high horse bullshit. So what do I get for "beating" the game the right way? I don't know how the story ends, but I won, right? I think Cory Davis should email me a proper "you win" screen or something.

Really, a game like this isn't meant to be 'beaten' the idea was a story to experience. If they really didn't want people to experience the story, they wouldn't have made the fucking thing and put it up for sale in the first place.
 

Spitfire

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WaitWHAT said:
Zhukov said:
Oh for fuck's sake. I do not like having my opinion misrepresented.

The problem isn't that it doesn't give you a choice. I understand that any decent story requires a degree of linearity/railroading.

The problem is that it spends the rest of the game trying to make you feel guilty for something you had no hand in.

"We're not going to let you proceed until you firebomb those civilians."
"Ooookay then, here goes."
*Whoomph!*
"YOU MONSTER, YOU FIREBOMBED ALL THOSE CIVILIANS!"

PS. I actually quite liked the game.
Here's one I prepared earlier!

WaitWHAT said:
Machine Man 1992 said:
Captain Walker (i.e. me) didn't decide to use white phosphorus. The developers forced us to use it.
This is a complaint I see a lot, and it's one I'm going to have to object to. A lot of people claim that the shocking moment in Spec Ops is 'meaningless' because it's scripted. In reality, the whole game is scripted. If the game ever gives you the objective "fight through this building and kill Joe Bloggs", you'll have to fight through the building and kill Joe Bloggs; you'll never have the option of sneaking round the side and talking to Joe and maybe convincing him to help you or something.

You see, the whole "do you do a bad thing or not" isn't the real choice of the game. The real choice is:

Whether you keep playing or not.

The game throws you into a hellish warzone with a gun and tells you "You're the hero! You can fix this!". The question is: how long are you going to believe it when the evidence is mounting otherwise? Will you get so sick of committing atrocities that you'll throw away a whole portion of a $60 game? And if you do decide to stick it through to the bitter end, then you'd better be ready when the game turns around and asks you what the hell you thought you were doing.

So, that's why I don't think it's fair to say that Walker "didn't choose" to use the white phosphorus. Sure, he didn't have a choice in the situation he was in. But that's only part of it....
^Pretty much that.
By that same logic, I suppose that Bad Rats is a commentary on the cruel nature of the person playing it, and Duke Nukem is really a sublime deconstruction of the morality of 1980's action heroes.

If you accept that quitting a game can be part of the game's experience, where do you draw the line?
 

EHKOS

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My problem was that I didn't know anything about Walkers background, thus not having a psychological profile thus not knowing a thing about his hero complex. And that I didn't know if Walker was meant to be blank-slate or story set character. Still a fun game, and Dubai was oddly beautiful at points, but it did have its flaws.
 

Hargrimm

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Spitfire said:
By that same logic, I suppose that Bad Rats is a commentary on the cruel nature of the person playing it, and Duke Nukem is really a sublime deconstruction of the morality of 1980's action heroes.
Way to throw all context out the window. I have no idea where you are pulling this bullshit from. The only thing quitting the game says is that you couldn't stomach it. The reasons for that vary, but that doesn't affect it's commentary and deconstruction of MMS.

It only tells you something about yourself. It's merits are not dependent on this factor alone, it is simply one of many reactions it evokes.
 

Legion

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Oct 2, 2008
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Abandon4093 said:
And the rest of us get that it was telling a story, not letting you make one.
That was my assumption.

Just because you play as a character doesn't mean that you are supposed to "be" the character. Not all games are supposed to put you in the shoes of the character, just because you are controlling their movements.

The player is essentially the narrator.
 

Loonyyy

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Daystar Clarion said:
It would have probably worked if it wasn't so blatantly obvious.

A huge mass of white specks all concentrated in one area? I fucking knew what was going to happen before I did it (no, the game wasn't spoilered before I played it).

I appreciate what the game was trying to do, but for me, it just failed at every attempt at emotional manipulation.

I wasn't trying to be a hero like the game kept accusing me of, I just wanted to play a good game, and unfortunately, this game relies on its story and not it's gameplay mechanics to entertain the player.

If the story doesn't grab you, like it didn't with me, then all you're left with is a really mediocre shooting gallery.
Pretty much this. Yager themselves made the comment that you weren't supposed to twig that these were civilians, because the way the game railroads you into killing them doesn't make sense otherwise. You can simply not shoot them, and you'll fail the mission. Which doesn't help their narrative overmuch, and their later criticisms of you for doing it fall flat, particularly if you played the game because you'd been told it had a critical and interesting perspective. Yes you can just turn off the game and refuse to play it, a point the game makes numerous times. Of course, if you want to hear out the entirety of their message you can't, so I guess there's a pretty massive problem with their message being contradicted by the way you'll have to recieve it. It's hard yelling at deaf people. I don't really buy the part about being able to not play it to avoid this either. There are plenty of other points where you're railroaded, but it doesn't have that same disconnect. Following orders, or Walker's crazy plans, working with the CIA, including the part with the water, that crazed soldier, the buildings etc. The difference is in this one, you get time to think, it's possible to see through it, and it's too gamey. When the game criticises you for making the lives of the people you're trying to save worse, or for mass-murdering Americans, at least that criticism works. I did those things, in full knowledge of what I was doing, and at the time, I didn't really care. I was just doing what the game told me, and the story made that make sense. It falls flat when I refuse to do something which in the context of the game should not be a failure state, and which in the context of the narrative, constitutes a decision which the narrators would presumably approve of, so that the developers can criticise me for a position I don't actually hold, and construct an entire narrative around something that I did so that I could hear what they had to say. It's like showing up for a lecture, and having the lecturer curb stomp you to make you show up to the lecture. It's fucking stupid. It's the Bono of video games.

And while the game tries not to cheat, they do take advantage of the Walker-is-crazy/Unreliable Narrator thing several other times, and the game would have done well to exploit this. Because when the player chooses not to shoot the civilians with the mortar, that shouldn't result in a game over. There are other points in the game where you're given similar choices, and there are peaceful solutions, and some of these are really excellent (Particularly the mob scene). The game gives you the choice immediately before: You can refuse the white phosphorous, and try to shoot your way through. You'll die, but you can try. The game gives you the choice, if only for a moment. Hell, if they mixed the soldiers with civilians, or had the soldiers retreating through them, I probably would have killed them all and not noticed.

I played the game for their narrative on games and choice. The constant "DO YOU FEEL LIKE A HERO YET?" BS that you encounter later was incredibly annoying, since I was not playing it in a mindset that needed to be told how horrific everything was. Instead you get lambasted, even if you're agreeing in part, or whole with their message, which I think would have to be the only reason someone would continue with the game. When the game starts trying to make you feel like a monster, because you want to hear what the game has to say, and you don't give two shits about Gears of War in Modern Warfare's clothes, and you're left thinking that you've put more thought into the message of the game than the devs? That's a massive failure.

Honestly, I think SO: The Line does a really shitty job of the criticism it does, and especially the games it criticises, which it doesn't even manage to replicate on a visual level. The reason it's so good is the absence of anything better, of any navel gazing at all from developers about shooters. It's great criticism, only because there is no criticism.
 
Dec 14, 2009
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Loonyyy said:
Daystar Clarion said:
It would have probably worked if it wasn't so blatantly obvious.

A huge mass of white specks all concentrated in one area? I fucking knew what was going to happen before I did it (no, the game wasn't spoilered before I played it).

I appreciate what the game was trying to do, but for me, it just failed at every attempt at emotional manipulation.

I wasn't trying to be a hero like the game kept accusing me of, I just wanted to play a good game, and unfortunately, this game relies on its story and not it's gameplay mechanics to entertain the player.

If the story doesn't grab you, like it didn't with me, then all you're left with is a really mediocre shooting gallery.
Pretty much this. Yager themselves made the comment that you weren't supposed to twig that these were civilians, because the way the game railroads you into killing them doesn't make sense otherwise. You can simply not shoot them, and you'll fail the mission. Which doesn't help their narrative overmuch, and their later criticisms of you for doing it fall flat, particularly if you played the game because you'd been told it had a critical and interesting perspective. Yes you can just turn off the game and refuse to play it, a point the game makes numerous times. Of course, if you want to hear out the entirety of their message you can't, so I guess there's a pretty massive problem with their message being contradicted by the way you'll have to recieve it. It's hard yelling at deaf people. I don't really buy the part about being able to not play it to avoid this either. There are plenty of other points where you're railroaded, but it doesn't have that same disconnect. Following orders, or Walker's crazy plans, working with the CIA, including the part with the water, that crazed soldier, the buildings etc. The difference is in this one, you get time to think, it's possible to see through it, and it's too gamey. When the game criticises you for making the lives of the people you're trying to save worse, or for mass-murdering Americans, at least that criticism works. I did those things, in full knowledge of what I was doing, and at the time, I didn't really care. I was just doing what the game told me, and the story made that make sense. It falls flat when I refuse to do something which in the context of the game should not be a failure state, and which in the context of the narrative, constitutes a decision which the narrators would presumably approve of, so that the developers can criticise me for a position I don't actually hold, and construct an entire narrative around something that I did so that I could hear what they had to say. It's like showing up for a lecture, and having the lecturer curb stomp you to make you show up to the lecture. It's fucking stupid. It's the Bono of video games.

And while the game tries not to cheat, they do take advantage of the Walker-is-crazy/Unreliable Narrator thing several other times, and the game would have done well to exploit this. Because when the player chooses not to shoot the civilians with the mortar, that shouldn't result in a game over. There are other points in the game where you're given similar choices, and there are peaceful solutions, and some of these are really excellent (Particularly the mob scene). The game gives you the choice immediately before: You can refuse the white phosphorous, and try to shoot your way through. You'll die, but you can try. The game gives you the choice, if only for a moment. Hell, if they mixed the soldiers with civilians, or had the soldiers retreating through them, I probably would have killed them all and not noticed.

I played the game for their narrative on games and choice. The constant "DO YOU FEEL LIKE A HERO YET?" BS that you encounter later was incredibly annoying, since I was not playing it in a mindset that needed to be told how horrific everything was. Instead you get lambasted, even if you're agreeing in part, or whole with their message, which I think would have to be the only reason someone would continue with the game. When the game starts trying to make you feel like a monster, because you want to hear what the game has to say, and you don't give two shits about Gears of War in Modern Warfare's clothes, and you're left thinking that you've put more thought into the message of the game than the devs? That's a massive failure.

Honestly, I think SO: The Line does a really shitty job of the criticism it does, and especially the games it criticises, which it doesn't even manage to replicate on a visual level. The reason it's so good is the absence of anything better, of any navel gazing at all from developers about shooters. It's great criticism, only because there is no criticism.
You've pretty much described how I feel about the game but am too dumb to put it to paper :D

The game assumes you're playing from a certain mindset, that of the dudebro frat boy, if you're not, then it just fails.
 

Loonyyy

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BakaSmurf said:
And the players that have nothing but complaints about being rail-roaded into performing the act by Yager did? Finding the action you're forcing someone else to do morally reprehensible doesn't change the fact that you gave them no other choice but to do it. It MAY have had a HELL of a lot more of an emotional impact if using the white phosphorous was optional (this could have been easily achieved by having the mortar have regular bombs available for use alongside the WP bombs), but it wasn't, and the in-game and mechanical explanation for NEEDING to use it is hacky at best, making it very, very clear that the lead writer just wasn't up to chops for making the player feel shitty for something they did without literally forcing the decision down their throat.

So no, my argument is nothing like claiming Moore endorses genocide because he didn't force the people watching the movie commit the action themselves followed by attempting to act morally superiour towards the people he forced said action upon.

And if you're going to try and pull that "YOU CuLD HAVE TURNDED DEH GARME OFF AT ANY TIM HURR DURR DURRRRR!!!1!" crap just say it now so I can cease attempting to debate with you when you choose to stick by that hilariously flawed argument... But if you are going to try a well thought out rebuttal that isn't just repeated half-baked spew by the lead dev that is on the same level of Corey Hudson's "artistic integrity" bull shite, then by all means, go right on ahead good sir. Otherwise, I won't even bother replying anymore.

EDIT: Incidentally, I just remembered a sequence from Homefront, a modern military shooter that at one point forces you to witness the horrible effects of WP mortar bombs and does a much, much better job of making you understand that these things should be banned for use against human beings, which is just sad, because Homefront's writing was sub-par, at best, which really says a lot about Spec Ops' writing in turn.
That's a really good point actually. The "You're a monster for killing these civilians in a game" narrative doesn't say anything nice about their testers, QA team, or the people who designed and animated these people and their deaths. That's a much better way of expressing how stupid their blanket accusations of monstrosity are to the player (Who may just want to hear what Yager have to say). If we're evil for consuming it, they're evil for selling it. And if we should turn off the game, then they shouldn't profit from the game. If turning off the game is the correct response, then Yager should not profit from the game, by corrolary. And before someone comes at me with some bullshit about them needing money, we paid for it, so we "need" by the same argument, our entertainment. They could have done the game much more cheaply, and likely effectively (Since they didn't even try to look like CoD, MoH, Battlefield, or the many clones they spawned). If they're counter-culture revolutionaries, they have to be willing to do things which could reduce their sales. If profiting contradicts their message, they're hypocrites.

And I definitely agree about the WP moment from Homefront. You're involved in the acquiring and use of these weapons, and you're forced to walk among both your own, and your enemies, screaming as the flesh melts from their bodies, which was far more traumatising than "HURR DURR: YOU'RE EBEEIIIILLLL" (Which, would be giving Yager far too much credit for their sophistication).
 

blackdwarf

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I think it also had a lot to do with the idea that people think they were Walker. You aren't. They use the story of Captain Walker to make a point about the way we play and think about the games of this specific genre. in most shooters you are put in the role of a character who is a low ranking officer in an army. You are ordered around, because your country is threatened by a certain threat. This set-up is easy relate-able. Enemy is attacking you, defend yourself from them. That is why we can place ourselves easy in those games. This is the mindset you probably started in, when you started Spec Ops.

You hold this feeling for awhile, but how more you progress, how more you are questioning your motives for fighting/playing. This is also the point where you are having conflicted ideas about the situation compared to Walker himself. He is damn sure about his reasons and he knows he is doing the right thing. This carries on for awhile and the breaking point is with the white phosphorous scene. Walker saw no other answer to the situation. Lugo Disagrees, but Walker already made up his mind. This shows that Walker is his own character and that we, the players, are just along the ride.

After this scene, Walker start to say that this all wasn't his fault, that he was forced into doing it and lays the blame on Konrad. We, the players, are at the same time saying that it wasn't our faults, but that we were forced by the developers. Still, we carry on, we keep playing, because we are not the monster. We didn't choose, right? No, you aren't monster, walker is. But who allows him to do his deeds? You, who keeps on playing.

I think they are trying here to get the same idea across as in Bioshock. In that one certain scene of that game, your character is doing something, in which you have no say. Some people didn't like that scene, because they hadn't any choice in it. That was the point, showing that games are predetermined events that we the player are allowed to enjoy. and that choices in-game are illusions. Look at that the Me effect games, a lot of choice, right? sure, but you can only choose between the events, that were put there by the developers. They don't happen because of your choice.

Spec Ops is different in the way that the scenes that are happening, are not scenes which allow us to enjoy our fantasy, they make us feel like assholes. To get the point across, that we are just interactive spectators in games. They have to smash that point into our faces and the best way to do that, is making us responsible for something horrible, instead of making us the glorious hero.
 

Loonyyy

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Daystar Clarion said:
-snip-
You've pretty much described how I feel about the game but am too dumb to put it to paper :D

The game assumes you're playing from a certain mindset, that of the dudebro frat boy, if you're not, then it just fails.
You've just simplified that post down to one sentence which sums everything up. I think you're the one who deserves credit for their intellect.

"The game assumes you're playing from a certain mindset, that of the dudebro frat boy, if you're not, then it just fails."