Let's step back and look at Batman.

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Matthew Jabour

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Batman is probably one of the most overexposed superheroes of all time. He's interesting, he's cool, and a million other things I could say. I love most of the Batman movies, and so do a lot of people. So understand, I have no underlying hate or malice for the character or his work when I say this:

Batman has no right to be taken as seriously as he is.

Don't take that the wrong way. That in no way means that the Batman movies, comics, TV series, or any other form of media, can't be good. On the contrary, the Dark Knight is one of my favorite movies of all time. But...well, just think about Batman for a moment. He's a man dressed up as a bat.

No, don't roll your eyes at the screen like that. Think about it just as two separate components.

Man

Bat

Man dressed up as a bat.

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

Again, that doesn't mean it's inherently bad to make movies out of him. But by god, why do they have to be so serious? Take Batman Begins. For the first hour and a half, you have a solidly put together story. A boy with his parents taken away. A city subjugated by organized crime. A secret organization with plans to destroy the entire city. Legitimately good concepts. But the gritty, realistic picture is shattered about halfway through, when Bruce Wayne takes out the crime lord. You have this cool scene where a few goons get eliminated one by one, all building up to the big reveal. That dramatic moment where he jumps out of the shadows in full costume and declares, "I'm Batman."

A little jarring, isn't it? For those not familiar with the mythos, up until that point you could change all the names and it might as well be a completely different movie. A serious, non-comic one, with the Nolan-style looping story that somehow manages to string 50 different plot threads into a cohesive story. And then Batman comes in, dressed in the silly rubber suit with those pointy ears, and we're still supposed to take it seriously. You almost expect Nolan himself to walk in and say, "What is Batman doing in my movie?"

Most of us - myself included - still loved that scene, and still took that movie seriously. But it's a little odd to take that much silliness at face value. Imagine if, instead of Batman, the buildup had been for a superhero called Owlman. Imagine his costume - a big Barn Owl mask, unusually large eyes, and a beak poking out a good 2 inches. For one thing, you'd have nightmares later on. For another, you'd never be able to take another scene of that movie seriously. So why should Batman get a free ride?

This is probably why I like Marvel better. They don't try to pretend their characters would make sense in any real-world scenario. "Here is Thor," they say. "He hits things with a hammer. Now watch these movies where he hits things with a hammer." I'm hard pressed to think of one DC movie series - aside from the original Superman - where they just let the superhero be a superhero. Steel's main problem was how long it spent without a hint of superheroism, Catwoman stuck its head in a toilet and just kept flushing, Green Lantern had Ryan Reynolds being Ryan Reynolds all over the place, and Man of Steel...yeah.

So, dear internet, I ask you: When did Batman become the paradigm of realism? Why was Batman supposed to grow up and sit at the big boy table while everyone else was playing around eating Oreos? And why does MacGyver get to be a cult classic of camp and cheese while the Adam West Batman series became some sort of internet punchline?

And don't say Batman and Robin, or I'll have to give you the cold shoulder.
 

schrodinger

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I guess it's because he's a beefed up millionaire that uses his intelligence and brawn equally. He doesn't need superpowers to fight supervillains like poison ivy, scarecrow, killer croc, or bane; he can out fight them or out smart them with his gadgets and smarts.
That's also probably why the Joker is a extremely popular Batman villain; he's not some super powered villain, he's an insane killer with a clown get up. They're potentially something a person could become, and i'm not saying someone could be exactly like batman or joker because you would need to bend some logic, but ideologically yes.

Funnily enough the Adam West show was basically saying how the batman comic had become at that point in time, so people today would interpret it as beyond silly
Shark repellent, ho!

I think batman needs to go on a break for a while, let other heroes take the lime light for a bit because Batman is reaching that point of oversaturation. I'm getting tried of batman honestly.
 

VanQ

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I don't think you know what the word paradigm means. I think you're looking for the word "paragon."

Anyway, on the topic of paradigms, gritty realism has been the paradigm of recent years. So it's hardly something exclusive to Batman. It's the in thing in movies and games at the moment, since we're just starting to become near indistinguishable from reality with the fidelity technology is currently capable of.
 

Matthew Jabour

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VanQ said:
I don't think you know what the word paradigm means. I think you're looking for the word "paragon."
Either suffices. Batman's realistic turn became something other superhero movies strived for. Man of Steel is a clear example of trying to fill that same paradigm.

Also, what is your profile gif from, and is it something my younger brother would be allowed to watch?
 

VanQ

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Matthew Jabour said:
VanQ said:
I don't think you know what the word paradigm means. I think you're looking for the word "paragon."
Either suffices. Batman's realistic turn became something other superhero movies strived for. Man of Steel is a clear example of trying to fill that same paradigm.

Also, what is your profile gif from, and is it something my younger brother would be allowed to watch?
Yes, but you wouldn't normally use the word paradigm to specifically refer to an individual. My avatar is from iDOLM@STER: Cinderella Girls and I doubt there's any reason your brother couldn't watch iM@S unless he's allergic to pop music.

There's only this PV released for the CG version of iM@S. You may wanna check out just the regular version of iM@S and hope this gets a full anime soon.
 

Thaluikhain

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My problem with superhero movies is when they try to be realistic whilst not trying to be realistic. It's one or the other.

If you are going for realism, your movie has to make sense...and so some guy dressed as a bat is not more effective than the whole police force (and military, in the last batman). The Joker can't run around like that, planting bombs everywhere without being noticed. So your story does not work.
 

Matthew Jabour

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VanQ said:
Matthew Jabour said:
VanQ said:
I don't think you know what the word paradigm means. I think you're looking for the word "paragon."
Either suffices. Batman's realistic turn became something other superhero movies strived for. Man of Steel is a clear example of trying to fill that same paradigm.

Also, what is your profile gif from, and is it something my younger brother would be allowed to watch?
Yes, but you wouldn't normally use the word paradigm to specifically refer to an individual. My avatar is from iDOLM@STER: Cinderella Girls and I doubt there's any reason your brother couldn't watch iM@S unless he's allergic to pop music.

There's only this PV released for the CG version of iM@S. You may wanna check out just the regular version of iM@S and hope this gets a full anime soon.
I was referring to the Batman movies, not just Batman himself.
 

Neverhoodian

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If you're looking for a good example of Batman being a bit goofy nowadays, I recommend checking out Batman: The Brave and the Bold. It's essentially a love letter to the Silver Age of comics, with over-the-top shenanigans and retro call-outs galore.
Having said that, even it couldn't always escape from the "tortured avenger crying for mommy and daddy" factor (I'm looking at you, "Chill of the Night!"). Sadly, the show was cancelled after only three seasons, partly because some fans felt it wasn't "serious" enough (and missing the point completely in the process).

Truth be told, I found the Nolan films to be too gritty and oppressive for my taste. Even the Arkham series of games gets a bit too dreary at times (ever try counting how many corpses you run across? It's downright depressing). For me, Batman: The Animated Series is the quintessential Batman experience. It has enough drama and gravitas without becoming all "doom and gloom."
 

RJ 17

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It's all about the darkness of his storyline. Little boy watches his parents get murdered right in front of him and vows to do something about the crime in his city. He hates criminals with a burning passion and as such he wants to literally terrorize them. And what's more terrorizing than some crazy ninja-trained psycho wearing black underpants swooping down to kick your ass? As for the "realism" aspect, it's the whole deal about Batman essentially just being a normal guy........with a bottomless checking account. The point is he has no traditional super powers. All of his powers just come from being an exceptional human. He has exceptional levels of human strength, exceptional levels of human reasoning, exceptional levels of human endurance, etc.

But I think if you raise the question "Why should we take this foppish dandy seriously?" Then you should raise that question for pretty much every super hero out there. They're all essentially a bunch of nut-jobs in silly costumes.
 

Foolery

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He watched his parents get gunned down, and was helpless to stop their deaths. Why the fuck wouldn't he dress up as a bat? Think about it. If you saw your parents get murdered in cold blood, you'd be seriously traumatized and have a pretty damaged psyche. I know I would. Even his villains have some kind of psychological flaw or quirk. Batman is a mental patient with a huge bank account, access to impressive tech/training, and a set of morals based around making sure nothing like what happened to his parents will ever happen again.
 

Heronblade

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The actions and behavior of batman in the Dark Knight is pretty damn close to how I would expect someone with that particular skill set, moral code, and motivations to act, and I happen to love it. The only thing I would change given the option is a little less focus on Batman the martial artist with cool gear, and more on Batman the genius level detective.

The way he acted in the previous movie series was... questionable, and the 60's tv series was utterly ridiculous. The comics were all over the place in terms of behavior, ranging from goofy to murderous thug.

To be frank, if the suit is a problem, he'd be better off changing the suit than his behavior in my opinion. But then, it wouldn't be batman, and the studio couldn't cash in on that fame.
 

Ruisu

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What is the point of a super-hero then? I ask then, why can't we have super-heroes being taken seriously, even if not completely realistic? Why does it have to be silly and dumb?
Why, because it is not possible? Because of the costumes, the colors?
Sure, marvel movies work with their "silly" tone, but it is really annoying when people act like that is the ONLY tone that super-heroes should have.

Sure, Batman is a man dressed as a bat.
But then, he isn't.
Nolan tried his best to avoid that though exactly because of that kind of reaction.
No, Batman is a man with a purpose. A man decided to fight crime, to save it's city from corruption. Batman is a man dressed in military gear, with a cape and cowl designed to make him more than a man in the eyes of criminals.
Why is that man dressed like that? To mess with their minds. To be something they can't understand. Because people fear what they don't understand.

We can take him seriously because we know it is NOT a rubber costume. It is not stupid.
It is also not supposed to make sense. That is the whole trick behind the idea of Batman. It doesn't make sense. And that is why it works. That's is why the grunts scream at the dark "What are you?".

...*sighs*

Well anyway, I don't expect to convice anyone anyway... nevermind.
 

KazeAizen

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schrodinger said:
I guess it's because he's a beefed up millionaire that uses his intelligence and brawn equally. He doesn't need superpowers to fight supervillains like poison ivy, scarecrow, killer croc, or bane; he can out fight them or out smart them with his gadgets and smarts.
That's also probably why the Joker is a extremely popular Batman villain; he's not some super powered villain, he's an insane killer with a clown get up. They're potentially something a person could become, and i'm not saying someone could be exactly like batman or joker because you would need to bend some logic, but ideologically yes.

Funnily enough the Adam West show was basically saying how the batman comic had become at that point in time, so people today would interpret it as beyond silly
Shark repellent, ho!

I think batman needs to go on a break for a while, let other heroes take the lime light for a bit because Batman is reaching that point of oversaturation. I'm getting tried of batman honestly.
Luckily whoever is working on the CW series is doing just that. Honestly that whole team just needs to be promoted to make the DC Cinematic universe because they seem to have a plan in place. It started with Arrow. They announced a Flash series and just had Barry Allen show up in the latest episode and he's supposed to be in two more with a slight lead in to his own series. Also Wonder Woman is supposed to show up at some point and they are trying to get a TV show called Amazon off the ground set in the Arrow universe. Its almost like the Marvel movies. They started with Iron Man and slowly but surely announced the other movies and had a full cohesive goal in mind. Now I'm cautiously optimistic at this point about MOS 2. I liked the first one well enough. I thought that despite its flaws it laid solid ground work for a good Superman sequel if they knew what to do with the character. I'm hoping that that the announcement of Wonder Woman mostly means that she is going to be like what Black Widow was in Iron Man 2. Not a major story point, in her civilian identity, and more of a supporting character that shows up to get one or two things done while letting Batman and Superman be the main focus.

Funny thing about the Arrow episode. With what little I know of Barry Allen I do know his basic origin story and they seemed to have more or less copy pasted the damn thing onto screen. He mentions his mother getting murdered as a kid when a "tornado" came tearing through his house. He tried to fight it and then found himself 20 blocks away in an instant. They couldn't have announced Professor or Dr. Zoom any more loudly if they tried. Point being that while Arrow was at first kind of a Nolanesque version of the Green Arrow (he still isn't even officially called Green Arrow) in season two it seems that it is embracing its comic book origins and characters. Black Canary, Brother Blood, League of Assassins. allusions to Red Arrow showing up. I think what DC needs to do with its movies is try to create a cohesive universe like Marvel but not necessarily the same tone as Marvel. The Man of Steel style is fine is you do eventually end up embracing the comic book origins of the characters. Batman does need a break but it seems that at least one person at the CW thinks so too and is going out of his way to make very superhero except Batman and Superman show up in these new series.

Also isn't it kind of a crime that Wonder Woman's big screen debut will be in The Lego Movie when Batman and Superman have had 7 and 6 solo movies respectively?
 

KazeAizen

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Heronblade said:
The actions and behavior of batman in the Dark Knight is pretty damn close to how I would expect someone with that particular skill set, moral code, and motivations to act, and I happen to love it. The only thing I would change given the option is a little less focus on Batman the martial artist with cool gear, and more on Batman the genius level detective.

The way he acted in the previous movie series was... questionable, and the 60's tv series was utterly ridiculous. The comics were all over the place in terms of behavior, ranging from goofy to murderous thug.

To be frank, if the suit is a problem, he'd be better off changing the suit than his behavior in my opinion. But then, it wouldn't be batman, and the studio couldn't cash in on that fame.
The only problem with Batman's suit in the movies is that besides Adam West no one has ever been able to freaking move in it. I mean I think George Clooney possibly got the worst version in terms of mobility.
 

Soviet Steve

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I guess it's the evolution of the character that has been underway for so long. Me and a friend have been watching the original batman series and it started out goofy as hell. One episode had the joker trying to take over the world by becoming the surfing champion, requiring Batman to defeat him in a surfing competition.

It's all the more hilarious knowing what they did with the character later on but I can see how much of this is easier to accept when it's step by step - The frog is being boiled slowly, with the evolution of the series being directed by the free market.
 

O maestre

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The problem is that even the Nolanverse isn't meant to be too realistic as the OT mentioned. The aspect of the Batman that has been missing from the adaptations has been the fact that he is just as insane as the criminals he deals with. A traumatized lunatic with endless funds. Love or hate Frank Miller, but he has been one of the few writers to actually take Batman seriously. Phoenix Jones despite his lack of wealth is a good example of the reaction a real world Batman would get.

Dead Century said:
He watched his parents get gunned down, and was helpless to stop their deaths. Why the fuck wouldn't he dress up as a bat? Think about it. If you saw your parents get murdered in cold blood, you'd be seriously traumatized and have a pretty damaged psyche. I know I would. Even his villains have some kind of psychological flaw or quirk. Batman is a mental patient with a huge bank account, access to impressive tech/training, and a set of morals based around making sure nothing like what happened to his parents will ever happen again.
sigh.... ninja'd, but yeah what this guy wrote.

Heronblade said:
The actions and behavior of batman in the Dark Knight is pretty damn close to how I would expect someone with that particular skill set, moral code, and motivations to act, and I happen to love it. The way he acted in the previous movie series was... questionable, and the 60's tv series was utterly ridiculous. The comics were all over the place in terms of behavior, ranging from goofy to murderous thug.

To be frank, if the suit is a problem, he'd be better off changing the suit than his behavior in my opinion. But then, it wouldn't be batman, and the studio couldn't cash in on that fame.
With all respect to your opinion, Batman's moral code and motivations are a flimsy excuse for a wealthy manchild to play dress up and deal with death and loss in the least productive way. Batman is a crime puncher not fighter, where was Batman when the banks screwed the country out of their homes and pensions? Granted it would make for a lousy and boring comic, but it highlights that he has no interest in changing the status quo, all he wants is to punch his own mental issues away. In most versions of the bat mythos, Thomas Wayne used his company to make Gotham a better place, his son instead of carrying out this legacy squanders it on military tech to help him beat bottom feeding thugs and other mental patients.

Can you imagine Tagg Romney, or Rory Gates doing the same thing and still regard them as sane?
 

Matthew Jabour

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Ruisu said:
What is the point of a super-hero then? I ask then, why can't we have super-heroes being taken seriously, even if not completely realistic? Why does it have to be silly and dumb?
Why, because it is not possible? Because of the costumes, the colors?
Sure, marvel movies work with their "silly" tone, but it is really annoying when people act like that is the ONLY tone that super-heroes should have.

Sure, Batman is a man dressed as a bat.
But then, he isn't.
Nolan tried his best to avoid that though exactly because of that kind of reaction.
No, Batman is a man with a purpose. A man decided to fight crime, to save it's city from corruption. Batman is a man dressed in military gear, with a cape and cowl designed to make him more than a man in the eyes of criminals.
Why is that man dressed like that? To mess with their minds. To be something they can't understand. Because people fear what they don't understand.

We can take him seriously because we know it is NOT a rubber costume. It is not stupid.
It is also not supposed to make sense. That is the whole trick behind the idea of Batman. It doesn't make sense. And that is why it works. That's is why the grunts scream at the dark "What are you?".

...*sighs*

Well anyway, I don't expect to convice anyone anyway... nevermind.
It is possible to take superheroes seriously. But super-realistically, trying to mix them in with everyday life, is impossible. Why? Because they are not meant for that purpose.

Batman is about a man dressed as a bat defeating a psychotic clown by punching him. Superman is about a guy in pajamas who has laser eyes, freezing breath, and probably tornado belches for all I know, whose only weaknesses are radioactive rocks and a cloudy day. Green Lantern is about a team of intergalactic space-beings with superpowered jewelry taking down a range of color-coordinated villains. I could go on.

That's why everyone loves Deadpool so much. He is completely aware of how ridiculous his own universe is, and spends most of his time making fun of the other superheroes who try to take it all seriously. But look what happened when they tried making him realistic. Yikes.

To be fair, there are comics that do tell a realistic, serious tale. They are not Batman, Superman, Flash, Green Lantern, Green Arrow, X-men, etc. Trying to be realistic with those things is like trying to play an orchestra where the brass section is entirely composed of people belching. They're just not compatible.
 

Dirty Hipsters

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Here's the thing, people in the movies, cartoons, comic books, they all acknowledge how silly the idea of Batman is, and the fact that he's a guy who runs around and beats people up while dressed as a bat. The Joker constantly comments on it to point out that Batman might be just as crazy as all the people who he fights.

Here's the thing though, even if the concept of a man fighting crime dressed as a Bat is in itself comical, what he does really isn't. Take for example your "owl man" who you think you wouldn't be able to take seriously if he appeared in Batman's place. Imagine that for years Owlman has been beating gangs of armed criminals to a bloody pulp with his bare hands, has alluded police officers at every turn, and has resources to have a super fast armored owl-mobile, and an owl plane. If at that point you met Owlman in a dark alley I'm going to guess you wouldn't be laughing in his face.

It doesn't matter how silly something looks if what it does is of no laughing matter. If a thug was mugging you and he had a pink gun I'm pretty sure you'd still be afraid of him, and take him seriously because he has a gun, regardless of color-scheme.
 

Silvanus

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From 'Whatever happened to the Caped Crusader', by Neil Gaiman, which shows a hypothetical Batman's wake;

Harley: "I can't believe he's really dead, puddin'".
Joker: "I can't believe he didn't die the first time he dressed up as a bat and jumped off the roof".

OT: Batman requires a suspension of disbelief, but less than hundreds of other franchises. It is the themes that make him relatively easy (for me, at least) to take seriously.

The fact that he is dressed as an animal is one of the least important things about him.