Let's talk about DotA 2 and its balancing issues.

[Tireseas_v1legacy]

Okay, if you've played DotA, you've probably been in the following situation:

One guy on the a team chooses one of a handful of characters (Riki or Sniper are the most common, but I've seen others), levels quickly to 6 with a few easy kills, and then at a speed almost double the other characters and butchers the opponents, allowing them to grab some of the top items and giving their allies way more room to level, which exacerbates the problem. By the 15 minute mark, it's essentially a slaughter where one team is just running from any confrontation because one character can take on all five. It results in terribly unbalanced games and miserable play experience for one team while the other side is almost boring. I've been both on the giving and receiving side of this. It doesn't require skill at all.

So I think that DotA 2 could use some changes to deal with balancing:

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

So this is what I think DotA 2 needs to make the game more balanced. Yes, some of this is straight up taking stuff from LoL, but DotA and LoL are essentially the same game to begin with with different heroes, tile sets, and marginal features. Embrace the similarities (because feature copyrights are much harder to fight in court than others).

So what do you think would help the game get more balanced? Are there any characters you think are "broken" and do you see how they could be fixed?

 

[CaseClosed343]

Overall I have about 1,100 hours on dota 2, so I have some experience with one-sided games. However, these one sided games are typical of when I first started playing, and im not talking about first 20 hours, I mean about first 100 hours.
1) Get rid of gold loss on death.

This is an essential mechanic, it shouldn't be removed. Yes, its annoying to lose 300 gold when you are only 100 gold away from your big item, but it's just as annoying for the enemy. It forces you to play smart, thinking "should i engage in this fight, or should i be safe and farm this extra gold?" Also when you get into higher play, certain heroes need certain "big items" before they start to make a big impact, you will want to prioritize killing them before they get that item to delay it as much as possible.
2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage.

Another major mechanic, but I don't really understand how this would enhance play. If the towers hit based on percentage of health, wouldn't it make it near-impossible to break down towers and open up parts of the map? Also, Juggernaut's healing tome takes one hit to destroy, that's it then he can no longer solo a tower. He is nowhere as annoying to deal with than a Nature's Prophet, but every hero has a counter.
3) Tower target priority.

You can get the tower to stop hitting you by a+clicking a friendly unit.
4) Larger killzone for spawns points.

I completely agree, had too many games where the enemy team just wanted to be jerks and prolong the match by fountain-camping.
5) Consider an experience curve.

Sorry I don't really understand this.
6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones.

In dota 2, the ultimates are pretty high impact, although they are not unbalanced. Riki's invisibility is rendered completely useless by 1.)sentries 2.)dust -really effective- 3.)gem

Sniper's ult is a little bit more annoying, but a lot of dealing with heroes in dota is how you play around them. For sniper, you need to get rid of him near the beginning of the fight before he can get all his dps out. You can also just buy a Eul's scepter and watch for the little icon that warns you of his ult.
Sorry for long post

 

[hazabaza1]

You're kind of missing how the game works.

If the enemy has carries, shut them down early. If they've got one carry then shutting them down ruins them, if they've got two you can split your efforts and do it just as well, if they've got loads then they probably have no supports and they're going to die anyway. Prevent the snowball early on and the gold loss is more balanced, if you don't work together then of course the snowball heroes are going to get stronger.

If towers did percentage of health then it basically nullifies half the point of getting powerful and split-pushing. It nerfs a whole lot of certain heroes utility.

If Sniper is too powerful get a gap closer, he's squishy. Get smoke and gank him. If Riki is going invisible get dust and wards and stun him.

The game is based around punishing people for playing bad in the early game and rewarding knowing how to counter the stuff that seems OP. Yeah a stomp sucks to be on the bad end of but 99 times out of 100 its your team's fault.

 

[DoPo]

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

It's an essential mechanic - you are talking about a core mechanic change, not balancing. The game is built around that, changing it means, you have to redo a lot of other stuff, too.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

If you are tower hugging at level 16, you are doing something wrong. The game works as intended - you get easily beaten down by the towers at low levels, at high levels, the game is out of the laning stage and you would be facing the enemy team.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

Issuing an attack against a friendly target de-aggros the tower. Works against creeps as well. The attack doesn't even need to happen (as you can't attack creeps with more than 50% HP) but issuing the command is sufficient.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

This is not a blance change. It would not really matter as if you're being spawn camped, you are losing anyway - there is no real chance of turning the game over if you manage to survive. Though, I agree - spawn camping sucks, and I'd like it reduced for it tends to drag the game. But, again, removing it would mean nothing to the balance.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

Again, the game works as intended - you can power level a character to gain an advantage over the enemy team. That's the idea behind having junglers and the reason for having 1 person lanes - mid being the most prominent. I've played DotA since 5.84b and the idea that you put the character who gainst the most from early levels, has always been in place - Zeus, for example, is a prime example of a mid hero (even though he can be used in the side lanes), for his spells do more damage and at level 6, he is very dangerous. Delaying his level 6 is not to the benefit of the team most of the time. Junglers operate on a similar principle - get more XP earlier. Which also leaves you with a lane with 1 person who also gets bonus XP as a result. Your change would not fix balance, it would throw it off and it would lead to a drastic change in playstyle, for one, 2-2-1 is no longer a viable competitive strat, laning is severely nerfed, roaming has an even higher risk vs reward, and jungling is a right mess. It changes many, many, core concepts of the game.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

The ultimates are fine. In fact, Riki's ultimate is one of the weakest in the game - it is very easily countered and once down, Riki is no longer a threat. That's why you don't see Riki often picked in any competitive environment - he's simply too weak for it. The only reason he owns the newbie scene is...because it's the newbie scene. Most heroes that are claimed to be OP are only so because people don't play properly against them. Invisible heroes are countered by dust and wards - dust is especially cost efficient - 180g nets you a kill. In fact, it nets you two kills, so you cover your costs and then add more on top, while hindering the enemy hero. Strategic sentry wards are also incredibly useful. If you're thinking "but why should I be buying those instead of a shiny new damage item", then you're doing it wrong. At the very least, you need to have supports who would buy you wards, sentries, dust, and probably build necro 3 or even buy a gem if the game goes well. Bottom line, it's not a balance issue.

 

[Trinab]

I would agree with the other three posters here. A lot of your problem stems from your own side not doing enough to counter the picks from the enemy. Picks like Riki, Sniper, and Drow are easily countered if people on your team know what they are doing.

Dota is a team based game, and if your team isn't working together, taking hero picks that oppose the enemies, playing support, and playing smart you will lose those games. Look at ways at improving your gameplay before you demand re-balancing. Watch tournaments, watch youtube 'how to play' videos, and make sure you're always improving.

Especially watch some pro players, and you'll see how balanced the game is. Watching mid-tier can be useful to, as you can see exactly what happens when someone takes riki, or sniper, and see how the enemy team destroys them. Dota is a game where you cannot be complacent about anything.

 

[Tireseas_v1legacy]

1) Get rid of gold loss on death.

This is an essential mechanic, it shouldn't be removed. Yes, its annoying to lose 300 gold when you are only 100 gold away from your big item, but it's just as annoying for the enemy. It forces you to play smart, thinking "should i engage in this fight, or should i be safe and farm this extra gold?" Also when you get into higher play, certain heroes need certain "big items" before they start to make a big impact, you will want to prioritize killing them before they get that item to delay it as much as possible.

Except you already achieve this by killing them without the penalty. 20 seconds out of the game can be anywhere from 300-1000g lost simply from being unable to kill creeps. The penalty is overkill and tips way too heavily in favor of the higher-level character.

Indeed, on its own, it's not a bad concept. But it's when combined with the leveling gaps that it starts to have serious imbalance issues. If anything, it may be better to have this mechanic set up as a separate game mode ("league-style" or something along those lines) with a less harsh mode as the "regular" game.

5) Consider an experience curve.

Sorry I don't really understand this.

I.e.: your experience is partially determined by deference between you and the average of your opponents' levels. To simplify this to a basic math equation:

(Base experience gain)((sum of opponents' levels/5)/Your level) = actual experience gain.

So, for example, if you were level 15 and your opponents were 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9, your experience would be 7/15ths of the base amount. Conversely, if you were 7 and your opponents were 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17, your experience would be 15/7ths of the base amount. The higher you are above your opponents, the less experience you gain per kill. The lower you are, the most experience you gain per kill. This helps narrow the gap between levels preventing excessive snowballing. Obviously, the actual equation would probably be much more fine tuned than that, but the idea is to scale leveling so that one side is not overwhelming.

I would agree with the other three posters here. A lot of your problem stems from your own side not doing enough to counter the picks from the enemy. Picks like Riki, Sniper, and Drow are easily countered if people on your team know what they are doing.

Yes, they are, but that requires a meeting of the minds within 60 seconds when you're crossing your fingers that everyone in your lobby speaks the same language and has the diversity of experience to actually know how to work together effectively. You see where that might be a problem.

Dota is a team based game, and if your team isn't working together, taking hero picks that oppose the enemies, playing support, and playing smart you will lose those games. Look at ways at improving your gameplay before you demand re-balancing. Watch tournaments, watch youtube 'how to play' videos, and make sure you're always improving.

Except I'm also able to do these things (and have several times) and I'm a relative novice, and that tells me that there are larger balancing problems in some of the hero set ups, not skill gaps between players.

Especially watch some pro players, and you'll see how balanced the game is. Watching mid-tier can be useful to, as you can see exactly what happens when someone takes riki, or sniper, and see how the enemy team destroys them. Dota is a game where you cannot be complacent about anything.

Except that effectively excludes anyone who likes to play a few games a week in favor of those willing to devote hours of time to memorize abilities and characters. It effectively mandates the use of voice chat in order to play as a baseline.

And it still doesn't address the issue of level gaps. If your team is at level 12 for the most part, and there's a level 25 that you're up against, it is almost assured that you're going to all die even in a 5v1 situation because odds are he's (1) capable of taking you down in only a few hits, (2) capable of outrunning you, and (3) has gear to absolutely maximize his efficiency. You can still win on a purely theoretical level, but 99/100, your entire team is about to be wiped by one character.

---

While league play is certainly an important part of DotA, the majority of players are not league players and don't use voice chat. The majority of players are interested in a fun game experience, not a outright competition. And the best game experiences are the ones that remain reasonably close throughout the match. Once a match gets lopsided, it get's frustrating for one side and boring for the other. And that's not a good game experience. I'm concerned that the baseline game experience (what one get's within a few games after starting up) is so grossly punishing to less skilled players that it ruins their game experience. And I think that it is a better game to LoL in terms of its overall mechanics, but I can't help but see how these elements harm the game experience for players who aren't diehard DotA players.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

While league play is certainly an important part of DotA, the majority of players are not league players and don't use voice chat. The majority of players are interested in a fun game experience, not a outright competition.

Eh. The game is billed as and played as an e-sport. You don't tune your e-sport to the skill level of your worst players. I'm not anything like a good DOTA 2 player, but I have some 250 hours into the game, and even in that short period of time I went from thinking heroes like Sniper, Drow, Riki, Ursa, etc were OP to the point of being fundamentally broken to recognizing how vulnerable hard carries are to anything remotely resembling a good team composition/intelligent players.

I knew going into DOTA that I was going to lose before I won, and honestly I got pretty close to a 50/50 win/loss ratio through my first 100 games because the matchmaker was doing what it was supposed to. Are 45 minute games that you fundamentally lost 5 minutes in fun? Obviously not. MOBAs are fickle, cruel mistresses at the best of times, most especially DOTA 2. That does not mean, however, that the game is awash in "balance issues".

Generally speaking, we're both relative novices, and neither one of us should be suggesting radical re-balancing ideas for a game with a skill cap as high as DOTA's. I know enough to know that I hardly know anything, and I certainly don't presume to think I could make sweeping changes to the core game and wind up making it anything other than worse.

 

[DazZ.]

There is so much here I don't know where to start. I will say you're wrong and the game doesn't need anything like the severe changes you're suggesting, then just pick a few things to quote and comment on.

Except that effectively excludes anyone who likes to play a few games a week in favor of those willing to devote hours of time to memorize abilities and characters.

Yes. Exactly. There's a huge learning curve to this game, that's a massive part of it's appeal (at least for me). This isn't a game you can play completely casually and be competent, it isn't pick up and play whatsoever.

If your team is at level 12 for the most part, and there's a level 25 that you're up against, it is almost assured that you're going to all die even in a 5v1 situation...

For starters you're not supposed to get into this position, but if you do this is where supports come in with their CC. Supports don't need farm to be incredibly effective, and even in 30min long games that they are winning can end up with just owning some boots and wards. But really, you just shouldn't be letting that happen and if you do see someone getting free farm for half the game you gank them so this doesn't happen and deserve to lose if you don't.

Yes, they are, but that requires a meeting of the minds within 60 seconds when you're crossing your fingers that everyone in your lobby speaks the same language

Generally at least one person goes support, you don't need to talk to pick a good team comp, just look at what your team has and pick around it. I'd say 75% of my games have a comp I'd be happy with, but of course theres still games where we have 4 of the same role, it's the way it is. If that really bothers you just play Captains Mode/Draft where that's a non issue. But if you do have 4 supports try to push and win early (<30min) and if you have an abundance of carries just hold out and defend until you're all fed and rape machines, this can take a long time and you need to defend hard.

that tells me that there are larger balancing problems in some of the hero set ups, not skill gaps between players

There's a huge skill gap between players. In public games Wisp (io) has one of if not the lowest winrate out of all heroes, however during TI3 there was only 2 or 3 games where he wasn't banned almost immediately or picked. He takes an immense amount of team coordination which novices just can't handle. This is the problem new people have with spirit breaker, furion and tinker, they can be anywhere and everywhere almost all the time and people don't know how to handle that so people think they're overpowered. Along with the people who are even more easily countered such as Drow and Sniper who have no getaways at all or Riki who you just need to buy dust/wards early like all roamers.

Basically most of the things I've read can be answered with "Not knowing how to deal with something doesn't make it overpowered". DotA is hard. I've been playing about 2 or 3 games a day for the past year and a half and I still have a lot of learning to do. I can say the constant one sided stomps do get better once you start getting to a level where people actually know what they're doing though instead of still experimenting and learning the basics, but people not knowing what they're doing really shouldn't be balanced for. If you're not finding it fun getting stomped on and don't want to push through the learning curve it might not be the game for you.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Bloodseeker can fuck off. If you want an example of lolol OP bullshit just look at Bloodseeker. He gets a single kill and he gets pretty much half his health back, his ult is bullshit, true sight on anyone under half health, over max move speed, his ult is bullshit.

Really talking about professional leet strats and "oh he's bad in pro scenes so he's fuckin' shit for everyone lol" stuff is slightly irrelevant because pub games are practically the polar opposite and almost removed from anything remotely like pro games.

But yes complaining about Riki is a really common thing and he's kind of easily countered. Pick a strength (Legion Commander is my pick,) buy Gem, instantly kill him with all your CC when he wanders into your team thinking he's invisible. It's often not even the character's fault in particular, it's just that Riki players find themselves incapable of switching their brains on and adapting to the fact that shit, i'm not invisible better not walk into the enemy team alone.

I'm also sick of people talking about shutting carries down early as if it's the easiest thing in the world. It doesn't even work, you cannot shut down carries hard enough. 0/8 Drow? Lol jk she still wins games because she picked Drow and is decent at basic carry positioning and Shadow Blade usage. I once played Medusa (never again, too hard) got really far behind then singlehandedly won a teamfight later on while still getting totally minimal farm and do NOT even get me started on Cancer Lancer. It's never the real one. The real one is probably chilling in base while his million clones farm for him.

I think it speaks volumes about some of DOTA 2's game design when pentakills happen every other game and nobody even remarks on them anymore. They're hype as shit in League!

Oh Bloodseeker's fountain diving 1v5 again. Better just die in three hits, I can never complain about Riven again. Why is the fountain so shit again? Any particular reason? No? Alright then.

Look DOTA 2 is fun but I have problems with the overall design of the game itself. Not even strictly about character balance either, the game engine is shockingly bad. Yes I know why, no I don't take that as an excuse for playing on what feels like 400ms all the time.

Also I don't like having to pray to my hastily set up shrine to RNJesus before every single game I play as or against someone like Phantom Assassin, Spirit Breaker or Ogre Magi. How is there a pro scene for this game again? One or two lucky stuns or crits can turn the advantage from one team to another and there's nothing to say but luck.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Sheepstick, Halberd, Dust > Sniper

Wait...why would dust help against Sniper, exactly? Am I misunderstanding some essential secondary function of dust? Is it not just for revealing hidden units?

I'm also sick of people talking about shutting carries down early as if it's the easiest thing in the world.

I don't recall anyone ever saying it was the easiest thing in the world. About half the time you should be losing, and in most of those cases it's likely going to be an uncorked carry rubbing the final salt in. That's rather the point of them.

 

[DazZ.]

Wait...why would dust help against Sniper, exactly?

Snipers tend to buy shadowblades as they have no getaway ability.

Most Snipers build so shitty items that you can pretty much counter them with Dust.

 

[BloatedGuppy]

Snipers tend to buy shadowblades as they have no getaway ability.

Oh.

I wouldn't really say that dust was some kind of hard counter for SNIPERS specifically, then, so much as Shadowblades.

Sniper always struck me as sort of the penultimate pub-stomp hero. The lower the skill level of the enemy team, the more outrageously effective Sniper is. He's one of my favorite picks because he's so frickin' easy to play, but whenever I pick him against competent competition I just get dived like a ************.

But seriously: Shadow Blade is the second most build item on Sniper after Power Treads. Dust from the point when he gets it is essential.

Fair enough.

 

[The Wykydtron]

major snip

While league play is certainly an important part of DotA, the majority of players are not league players

STOP! Stop right there. Now you lose all credibility. Professional players are the ones that discover new trends in the meta, they are the ones that set your pub experience. And they are the ones to speak about balance because they know the strength and weaknesses of each hero to an unbelieveable extend. There is a reason why Riki, at the very best, is a very situational surprise last pick hero. There is a reason why Drow and Sniper see no professional play. And if you start balancing for the lowest common denominator you'll end up ruining the balance of the game and render many heroes useless beyond repair.

Like League does.

Like League does? Sorry, when was the last time you looked at some patch notes? They nerfed Olaf into the ground for months because one guy played him superbly well in a few LCS games and built him back up as a damage guy rather than a tank, they've been changing tower stats around for ages to counter the really early 2v1 lane tower pushes top that you only see in pro games, in fact any nerfs or buffs you see will probably be on the characters played most in the pro games. Like Jinx for example with her old W damage being too high and the arm time on her chompers got increased because they had to nerf her kite for some reason. With the whole Esport thing taking off they cannot afford to aim for the lowest common denominators anymore and haven't been for quite a while now.

The only person who undergoes changes regularly is Riven because she's really hard to balance simply because she's Riven. As for older characters they're making them more relevant to the meta one at a time as well as making them look less shit. Remember when Annie was a circle and five triangles stuck together?

Also why is Drow bad? I don't really see why, she's got really good kite and stupid damage if you and/or your team can keep people a measly 450 range away from her. She doesn't even need items as badly as other carries, she gets massive Agility just from Marksmanship alone.

 

[The Wykydtron]

Bloodseeker can fuck off. If you want an example of lolol OP bullshit just look at Bloodseeker. He gets a single kill and he gets pretty much half his health back, his ult is bullshit, true sight on anyone under half health, over max move speed, his ult is bullshit.

Bloodseeker suffers from having only one good ability. Thirst. The ability draft mode is pretty much all you need to test it out. Each of his other skills is either highly situational or easy to counter by a single 135g item. Ult? TP the fuck out of it. He runs towards you with his neat 120% damage silence on him? TP the fuck out. He gotta go fast? TP the fuck out.

Seriously. Bloodseeker in his enterity is countered by 135g. TP is the second best item in the game, right after the GG branch.

How is there a pro scene for this game again? One or two lucky stuns or crits can turn the advantage from one team to another and there's nothing to say but luck.

Because it is exactly not like that. Yes, those RNG heroes may be annoying (even though you can control the RNG of many of those, you can reliably get a PA crit during her as buff) but when playing against them you should not expect to not get a multicast, first hit bash or crit. You should expect to eat their maximum damage output.

Also, all heroes you listed have pretty much no use in the current pro meta (or the ones before that). They each have design flaws and timings that simply don't fit and can easily be countered.

What does an Ogre Magi add as a support? He needs his levels, so he starves the carry out of exp. He can't protect him. As a melee support he has trouble zoning out the most common offlaner. Yes, he is bulky but he can be easily killed 10min into the game. Same goes for Spirit Breaker. His carry potential is countered by wards and a quick disable, both really common on higher levels. He is by far not the strongest hero.

I was just throwing any RNG people I could think of at the time, Legion Commander is another although she doesn't quite rely on hers as hard when compared to everyone else. Also doesn't Bloodseeker's ult base on distance travelled? I've immediately died from blinking away with Antimage before so wouldn't teleporting back to base just instantly kill me from the thousands of units instantly moved?

DOTA mechanics. Up there with the mysteries of the universe.

 

[endtherapture]

OP go and play League of Legends. What you're suggesting would basically turn the game into League of Legends.

Basically you've got pwned by some Snipers and Rikis at a low skill level and want the game to be changed. I say no - Riki and Sniper are weak heroes that can be really easily shut down and killed by simple ganking and harassment.

I understand as a new player you want the game to be less punishing but these are all important mechanics of Dota and your suggestions of "balance" would ruin the entire game haha.

 

[Weaver]

OP go and play League of Legends. What you're suggesting would basically turn the game into League of Legends.

Yeah, I kind of agree with this. I've played both LoL and DOTA 2 (probably lots more hours in LoL) but both games are what both games are, and their mechanics are actually pretty well thought out.

LoL has almost all the mechanics you're describing, so it sounds like the game for you.

DOTA 2 is more ... well, sporty than LoL. If the other team is better than you, there are no safeguards in place to give the losing team a break. If a AAA hokey team plays against some junior team, they're going to stomp them. DOTA takes on a similar philosophy and, as a result, is most fun when both teams are similarly skilled.

LoL is, of course, pretty much the same way but gold for kills scales to a ridiculous amount if a player is constantly farmed, to the point where killing a minion is more profitable than killing them.

Further, in DOTA you need to change your mindset. YOU are protecting the towers, the towers are not protecting you.