Let's talk about DotA 2 and its balancing issues.

[DoPo]

I was just throwing any RNG people I could think of at the time

There is one thing important to realise about the RNG in Dota 2 - there is no RNG. The game uses a pseudo random distribution (PRD) rather than a pseudo random number generator (pRNG). In short, the difference is that the PRD is "less random" - it balances out the random chance by smoothing out the success/failure spikes. You are less likely to get a streak of crits, also a streak of no crits. Just needed to mention it.

Except you already achieve this by killing them without the penalty. 20 seconds out of the game can be anywhere from 300-1000g lost simply from being unable to kill creeps. The penalty is overkill and tips way too heavily in favor of the higher-level character.

You do not seem to comprehend the extent of what you're proposing. Think of this - if a carry gets no gold penalty from death, then even if they die, they'll be able to get their items faster. That is entirely counter productive to what you suggest - they already lose the gold from not killing creeps, so when they suddenly stop losing gold from dying, they'll be pretty much unstopable.

And you keep referring to this mythical "higher level character" throughout your post. That shouldn't happen. If anybody has such a big level advantage over your team, it's because you let them. There is no inherent way for two equally matched (or at least close) teams to get a really huge level gap - it's only going to happen through feeding one of the other heroes repeatedly. It's not a balance issue you let that happen, it's an issue with your team.

If anything, it may be better to have this mechanic set up as a separate game mode ("league-style" or something along those lines) with a less harsh mode as the "regular" game.

Why? Why must Dota be...not-Dota to appease you? Why not play not-Dota to begin with?

So, for example, if you were level 15 and your opponents were 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9

Then the other team already lost, because they were unable to prevent you from overlevelling to this extent. I can only see this scenario happening if the other team refuses to even fight - maybe Ghandi got clones and is playing an entire team or something.

if you were 7 and your opponents were 13, 14, 15, 16, and 17

Then you already lost because you slept through the game. I don't see this happening in any sort of normal game without you leaving your hero idle for a lo-o-ong period of time.

the idea is to scale leveling so that one side is not overwhelming.

That's already possible and you don't need game mechanics to "balance" it. It's called playing the game and playing it well. Don't feed the enemy team, preserve your lanes. Buy wards, buy sentries, if needed, set up a perimeter, carry town portals - flee when needed, and assist team fights with them. Pick your fights as well - protect your carry, feed him the kills. There you go - now the enemy doesn't have a bajillion levels on top of you.

Except I'm also able to do these things (and have several times) and I'm a relative novice, and that tells me that there are larger balancing problems in some of the hero set ups, not skill gaps between players.

It's gaps between players - not balancing issues. Several veterans have pointed it out to you already. If I may, you actually sound like almost every newbie that comes to Dota. Why is it that you know better, than people who have played the game for much, much longer than you - especially when we tell you it's not an issue with the game but the players. It's a team based game - not playing as a team would of course lead to situations where team play would have prevented a situation.

Except that effectively excludes anyone who likes to play a few games a week in favor of those willing to devote hours of time to memorize abilities and characters. It effectively mandates the use of voice chat in order to play as a baseline.

It's harsh but...yes - you do actually need to be able to play the game, instead of the game playing itself for you. Your suggestions are stuff that is already not needed if you have experience. If your suggestion is "but make it not need experience", then this is perhaps not the game you're looking for. Should I also suggest changes to chess because I get beaten easily? Or is it perhaps a better idea to learn to play better and train myself to anticipate moves and to use strategies against my opponent?

Also, something I should note - no voice chat is not required. It's useful but not required. I've had many games when text chat sufficed - it certainly does if you're paired with other players that know what they are doing. Heck, in fact, there was no voice chat in WC3 custom games, and yet a team of complete random players were still able to play together. Granted, it's slightly harder to get a good team match-up[footnote]Oh the glory days of getting people who refused to buy boots and only got life and mana potions because they expected this to work like Diablo or something.[/footnote] but if it's capable of working there, then it's certainly able to work in Dota 2 where you have advanced way of non-voice chat - pre-set messages and three different map markings.

And it still doesn't address the issue of level gaps.

There is no issue.

If your team is at level 12 for the most part, and there's a level 25 that you're up against

Then it's time to call the relatives of the players on your team and tell them the poor person dropped dead in front of their PC. This is the most likely reason it has come to this - it's already hard enough to hit level 25, if the other team is still level 12 at this time, then they are most likely literally not playing. Again, this is only a situation that your team let happened. If in chess your opponent pulls out 5 queens, why exactly is the game at fault for this power gap between you two? You have the means to stop them, after all.

The majority of players are interested in a fun game experience, not a outright competition.

Then, simply put, Dota 2 is not the game for them. It's really that simple. I may come across as rude but I don't mean to be - they are really just looking for a different game for their needs. Heroes of the Storm, whenever it comes out, would probably be more down their alley. Dota already works - if players refuse to let it work as intended, it's not the fault of the game. Again, I'd draw comparison to chess - if I zerg rush my opponent with pawns, I'll most likely lose. Instead of that I can either play another game or learn to play chess.

 

[the doom cannon]

There are no balance issues in Dota 2. Everything is OP as fuck, which means nothing is OP as fuck. Learn to play your characters and how to counter other characters

 

[DoPo]

snip

Scenarios where the enemy carry was already 15 and I was only 7 happened quite a lot to me. Mostly because I prefer to be the one role that lifts and carries the game in the early stages: Support.

Yet supports are not hampered by a level gap. Yes, they are squishier targets but I have also turned this to an advantage to our team - just "wander" around a bit too close to the enemy as a CM and they like to go for the easy gold, which may not be that much when they get ganked. Heck, I've also done it in a teamfight - the enemies start to chase, I start to teleport, then cancel and run around the trees with 100 HP. They stupidly give chase while my team picks them off.

At any rate - the way TC is talking about it, is like an issue and not I am fairly sure it's not about supports. For one, they won't complain about the level difference. And a scenario where one player is level 25 and none of the other team even have a level 3 ulty up (or even max skills), is quite simple not possible under a normal game. I think you'll agree that somebody screwed up MAJORLY to let this situation happen.

 

[Supdupadog]

Can we do something about Phantom Lancer?

I know you're supposed to counter with AoE, except every PL that I played against (That knows what they are doing)that makes it to mid-late game just stomps the entire base.

He can stealth, he can scout, he can juke, he can split-push, he can farm his lion face off,and his clones get durable enough AoE stops mattering.

He's dumb. He's a dumb hero.

 

[DoPo]

Can we do something about Phantom Lancer?

Gank him. Gank him a lot. Buy dust and go kill him in his lane. Repeat. If you need to, buy smoke, as well. There you go. You can also counter pick him, too - heroes like Medusa and Earthshaker are rather effective, then anyone with a good AOE is also good, OD just melts his illusions with his orb attack, stuns work rather well, too. Items that are useful are dust and wards (duh), Necro 3 (reveals invisible units), Diffusal Blade (feedback kills illusions quicker, purge directly destroys them), Battle Fury (AOE attacks for melee heroes to destroy illusions quicker), orchid (silence to not allow him to escape and burst him down with the damage bonus), sheepstick (same as before but you don't get damage bonus), and so on.

It's not really that difficult - just gear your play to counter the other team. As a rule of thumb, there isn't a generic playstyle for any and all situations, you tailor how you play based on your teammates and your opponents. Also, how the game goes - if it goes badly, fall back and regroup, don't let them use their advantage, if it goes well, press your advantage and but don't let your enemy take it from you. In a stalemate, where nothing happens, go make stuff happen.

 

[Simskiller]

Can we do something about Phantom Lancer?

I know you're supposed to counter with AoE, except every PL that I played against (That knows what they are doing)that makes it to mid-late game just stomps the entire base.

He can stealth, he can scout, he can juke, he can split-push, he can farm his lion face off,and his clones get durable enough AoE stops mattering.

He's dumb. He's a dumb hero.

I feel this video is accurate to what you're saying (and also fun):


But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

 

[Supdupadog]

But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

See, this advice bugs me.

If the main way to shut down a hero is to stomp them early, well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes. That can't be the de-facto strategy.

And even then, that doesn't mean PL is down and out. I played a game as Earthshaker vs PL. I was told it was a good counter pick. We had a lead on him in lane.

But once we left the laning phase, took our eyes off the guy to go roam for team fights and crap, we soon found the bottom lane swarming in PL clones. Eating the towers.

Cuz PL isn't just annoying cuz he can swarm and smack you down. He's tricky. He hard to pin down. He can farm exp and items in the jungle if he doesn't do well in lane, then send armies of clones into the lanes while he farms and farms.

IME, a good PL is almost never in the clones. Only shows up after all the big initiator ults are out.

And by far the most annoying thing about his clones is they blow your location. Run into one? Well, now the enemy teams knows exactly where you are.

Trying to kill a bunch of them so they don't eat your barracks? Well now they know where you are and have the opening to initiate for an easy kill. Or go after another objective while you try to clean them out.

The kind of pressure you'd need to keep him out of the game completely is nuts, and after him, god help you if the other 4 on the team are decent.

His kit is stupid. It isn't just that it's good at fighting, it fudges up with the general game mechanics. What PL can contribute to a game without directly intervening is too dumb.

 

[EquestrianGeneral]

As many others have said thus far, I disagree with your OP. Having put over 900 hours into DoTA 2, I feel that each of the problems that you listed all serve a purpose within the game.

For example, if heroes did not lose gold on death, then ganking a carry before 30 minutes would have far less of an impact, as they would have simply lost time that they could have spent farming instead of unreliable gold. In addition, the ultimate abilities (and abilities in general, actually) do not need to be re-evaluated--they are all quite powerful and have a role within a team composition, but they can also be countered (Riki's ultimate is made useless by Dust of Appearance/Sentry Wards). Finally, if certain scenarios are occurring (such as a 12 level gap between enemy heroes or one team spawn camping the other), then it means that you have lost, plain and simple--that isn't the game's fault.

With all of that said, I do feel that there are a couple of heroes that need to be re-balanced/re-worked. Phantom Lancer's agility gain is waaaaaay too high for someone who's illusions get a percentage of his base damage, meaning that he can begin to push at ridiculous speeds far sooner than some actual pushers. On the topic of Phantom Lancer, I really think that Diffusal Blade should not be allowed on him (similar to how Blink Dagger used to not be allowed on Pudge and Vengeful Spirit); it's simply too good on him, considering that his entire combat style involves creating illusions that all have the buff.

Centaur Warrunner also needs to be looked at, especially now that Blink Dagger costs no mana to cast. He has two moves that cost mana, neither of which are very costly. Add this to his strength gain and passive, and you have a hero who is too good at too many things.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

Have been playing Dota for almost 8 years now and... well, everyone already explained everything.
Dota is a very well balanced game with an incredibly deep meta. 99.9% times when curbstomp happens it's players' fault. It's not game's fault that 5th guy decided to random and got Pudge when we needed support. It's not game's fault when supports thinks that he's carry and doesn't buy wards.
Currently I have only three heroes that I have issues with: Nature's Prophet, Phantom Lancer and Ember Spirit.
I don't think that NP and PL are imbalanced, I just hate them, because they are the only heroes whose pick completely changes the game. Just the fact that opposing team picked either of them, means that from now on game is about them. Whole pick is dedicated to counter them and every single decision in a game basically revolves around them. I just hateeee it.
And Ember. I just think he's bullshit. Especially his Sleight of Fist. I mean, what an actual fuck, 6 sec cooldown, bonus damage and being able to cast spells while at it! He's a carry and initiator that doesn't have to directly participate in a fight!

 

[DoPo]

But yeah, pl's not that hard to counter, just get dust and gank him early. He's kinda squish early. annoying, but Squish.

See, this advice bugs me.

If the main way to shut down a hero is to stomp them early, well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes. That can't be the de-facto strategy.

Of course you won't be able to stop him easily when farmed...but, "well, you can kinda say the same thing thing about all the other heroes". Especially true for carries.

If you wish another strategy then finish the game early before PL can farm. He is dangerous due to the items, but the items also take time to farm. Don't get to this point - aim for early victory. Or shut down his comrades - I have lost a game despite having a farmed PL because the rest of my team was being stomped in team battles.

And even then, that doesn't mean PL is down and out. I played a game as Earthshaker vs PL. I was told it was a good counter pick. We had a lead on him in lane.

ES is a good counterpick, but not in lane - Fissure is an enormous counter to illusions running around, and the ulty basically melts PL and reveals which one of the swarm he is.

But once we left the laning phase, took our eyes off the guy

There you go - don't do that. Why did you do it? And can't you see you shouldn't have?

He can farm exp and items in the jungle

Ward the jungle. Establish map control - really basic thing here. It's not the other team's fault you let their jungle unwarded. If they counter ward - then deward. You would need detection anyway.

And by far the most annoying thing about his clones is they blow your location. Run into one? Well, now the enemy teams knows exactly where you are.

Same can be said about wards. If he runs into one, then you know where he is. He can't really hide his presence - at most he can WW and set the illusion in another direction, but you would still know where he is.

There are already ways to handle everything you mentioned. OK, technically there is one really annoying combo and that is PL+KotL - I would suggest not running against it - pick KotL, if possible, or fall back to constant ganks - kill the KotL a lot for easy money and feed your carry. Less annoying now.

 

[DasDestroyer]

You seem to be somewhat missing the point.

1) Get rid of gold loss on death. I understand why this is here, but it exacerbates the problem by essentially preventing those who need items the most from needing them and allowing those who kill them to get the top items better. And when some of the base items cost 3300g, it is really frustrating to have to re-earn 1000g because the other asshole smacked you at 3200g.

A lot of times if a mid hero is winning their lane they won't get as much gold or exp by ganking as they would if they just stood in lane. However in addition to getting gold themselves, they take away enemies' gold, which actually makes ganking worth it.

2) Towers should deal percentage damage to heros, rather than set damage. You should not be able to solo a tower at any level. Creeps and/or other heroes should be required in order to take down a tower. At 16, a Juggernaut can solo a tower just with standard attacks and dropping a healing tome. This is a serious balancing problem as it essentially prevents the defensive stance of "tower hugging." This also combines with the next possible change.

The game is called Defense of the Ancients, you're supposed to be defending the ancients, and, by extension, the towers, not the other way around.

3) Tower target priority. Currently, the tower will target whichever hostile creep or hero is closest and continue until it is dead. What this means is that melee heroes are at a distinct disadvantage in tower fights as they are closer, have to travel farther in order to approach and retreat from the tower, and have fewer alternative targets for the tower before they have to retreat. Conversely, towers don't change targets until they are dead or out of range, which means a hero just needs to make sure its not close to the tower during a target change and can still go after a straggler hero. What they should do is have target priorities in the following order: target hostile of friendly hero > hostile creeps > hostile hero. This combined with percentage damage would give lower level characters more of a fighting chance against higher level characters.

There are actually perfectly transparent, if complicated, rules by which towers pick who to hit, and if the tower is attacking you you can attack-click a friendly to have the tower reset its aggro.

4) Larger killzone for spawns points. You should not be able to spawn camp in this game. Period. Make the map larger and set the spawn points farther back if you need to.

Unless you want to make the fountain literally instakill enemies, there's no point because getting enough evasion will allow you to dodge fountain shots so you can just sit inside and kill everyone. Also some of the most hilarious videos come from a team diving fountain while 1 person kills their base.

5) Consider an experience curve. The 1-25 level scale makes for a much more interesting experience in DotA 2 than LoLs 1-18, especially when you can divert a level into a straight up base state boost. That said, it also means that when there is a level gap, it is often much more dramatic (it is not uncommon for there to be a 12-level gap between characters), so I propose scaling experience gains based on the mean level of the other team rather than a set concrete number. You can still murder characters who are substantially lower level than you, but lower level characters can level faster and higher level characters can level slower making games more competitive and engaging.

That's already how it is. Lower level heroes require less exp to level up. And supports more or less cap out at level 16, sometimes earlier, so it doesn't even matter that much.

6) Reexamine some ultimates and consider modifying the more abused ones. Let's get this out of the way: some ultimates are way too imbalanced. Reki's perma-stealth can be gained in one second of non-combat at level 3. Sniper has a maximum 20-second cooldown on an ultimate that has the range of almost a third of the map. I'm not saying you have to nerf their effects, but in terms of balance, some things need to change. Reki's stealth could be upped to 3 seconds and a minimum away from his last attack. Sniper's assassinate cooldown should probably double. These are the two that I most remember.

Riki's whole ult can be countered by a single 220 gold item, as long as you don't wait until he's godlike to use it. Sniper's ultimate costs roughly 1/3 of his mana.

I was just throwing any RNG people I could think of at the time

There is one thing important to realise about the RNG in Dota 2 - there is no RNG. The game uses a pseudo random distribution (PRD) rather than a pseudo random number generator (pRNG). In short, the difference is that the PRD is "less random" - it balances out the random chance by smoothing out the success/failure spikes. You are less likely to get a streak of crits, also a streak of no crits. Just needed to mention it.

There are a few things that still use simple random distribution. Skull Basher comes to mind, but I can't remember any others off the top of my head.

 

[Adeptus Aspartem]

"Let's talk about DotAs balance" followed by "Rikis ult is OP" => You've no idea what you're talking about.

Those discussions aren't healthy in their respective forums, please keep them out of this one <.<

 

[Mister K]

You got your ass kicked too many times in a row I believe, right?

Oh I've been there, my friend, I've been there. Summer of 2013, during July I've lost about 20-25 games in a row. I still have more losses than wins. You can have my sincerest condolences.

You are partially correct. There ARE pub-stompers (Riki, Sniper and such). HOWEVER, that is what they ARE. PUB-stompers. They are named so because newbies in pub games do not know about team synergy and can't counter them properly. But moreoften then not, you will not see them played on pro level, because, if shut down early, they are useless. Plus, they are almost useless in team fights.

The biggest problem is not the characters, but players, even higher level ones. Even if guys and gals pick rather nice team of characters, most of the time they (players, not characters) do not actually play as a team in the beginning. Guilty of it myself. Playing as Crystal Maiden (THE babysitter of DOTA2), laning against Riki. Buy sentry wards? Fuck that! Amass money for boots and Mek.

What I mean is you can't blame the imbalance, because every character is imbalanced in one way or the other (Except for Meepo, I can hardly understand his usefulness) and things that you've mentioned are essential to the game.

You have three choices to pick from:
1. Find your own team, play together, COMMUNICATE, become better;

2. As others said, play League, because it is a lot easier to play;

3. Do what I do and stop cariing about winning/losing. Shut down your emmotions. If you are getting slaughtered, than shrug it off. You are winning? Enjoy it. And don't forget to have fun. Oh, and don't play when in bad mood.