Let's talk about grammar (NOTE: Read the disclaimer at the top of first post)

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Twinrehz

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DISCLAIMER: This thread is not intended to be a rant on people who can't spell, it's meant as a philosophical point of view as to why some people don't care how they write. I choose to not make this a thread about spelling, because corrections will be flying from the very first reply, throwing all the errors I've probably done, since I'm not perfect in english syntax.[footnote]I'm aware that people with disabilities do have problems with writing and reading. My intention is to point out that those without disabilites (except perhaps chronic laziness) have no reason to write as bad as they do.[/footnote]

So with that out of the way, let's talk grammar. We'll warm up with a nice song
This song inspired this thread
My conundrum is simply why people can't be bothered to spell properly. I ran into an interesting case in a youtube-comment, a place known to be filled with shitty grammar, lack of spelling, and general incoherence.

I pointed out to him that without the severe syntax errors, lack of spell checking and checking if your sentence makes sense in the first place, it would probably be an interesting comment (and I genuinely thought so, from what I could read there was something there that caught my interest, but it was nigh impossible to understand). The response I got was that he couldn't be bothered to write properly because he wasn't at school. That kind of attitude is frightening, I believe that the internet shouldn't be a cesspool of poor writing just because it's not school.


The whole point of having a language with rules for spelling and grammar is to agree on how information is conveyed, it's not for laughs that we have a proper system for our language, or so that you can go butcher it totally while being online. I suppose most of this can be summarised with "think about what you're typing", but people value their own time so preciously, though I can't understand why. If you just take the time to form proper sentences, and make sure that it's not totally awful and impossible to read, by adding a few commas and punctuations here and there, it will be much easier to read, and you're a less annoying person.

Another example is this infamous sentence
Has Anyone Really Been Far Even as Decided to Use Even Go Want to do Look More Like?
While I laughed the first time I read this, it epitomises the whole problem. This sentence is not coherent, nor does it make any kind of sense.

Am I just overreacting, thinking that the problem is more serious than it really is? Or is there a real problem with people not giving two shits about what they type, as long as they type something? I know I used youtube as an example, and youtube is by far one of the worst places, because it's so open and uncensored, and on this forum it's no big deal, because we have moderators and rules that enforce proper spelling. However, on the greater scale that is the internet, this crops up all the time, people wanting to say something, but writing like they're smashing their face into the keyboard, assuming that they don't have to bother writing properly, people can just figure out for themselves what the meaning is, like they're the next fucking Shakespeare, open for interpretation.

Comments like that are often left open for interpretation too, since no-one can figure out what they're trying to say.
 

Aerosteam

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Sep 22, 2011
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"Know body cares dude."

As someone who uses correct grammar/punctuation even when sending goddamn text messages, it does infuriate me when I see errors as simple as getting "to" and "too" confused or just general abbreviations popping up. Seriously, do you value your time so much you can't take an extra couple of seconds to type things out properly and in full?
 

Twinrehz

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Well, a lot of people don't even seem to know that there's a difference between to and too. Same goes for all the people using your all the time, instead of using you're when they should.

It gets annoying, I've spent time actually learning this stuff, and people just don't give a flying fuck.
 

zen5887

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I'm a pre service teacher so obviously I'm a pretty big fan of grammar and getting shit right.

Having said that, a forum post or youtube comment isn't really a Phd thesis. I don't think somebody using the wrong "too" or "your" while talking about which Halo is the best really matters that much. In fact, nothing infuriates me more than somebody, no doubt with the smuggest fucking look on their face, commenting with just "you're*". Then they act as if that one small mistake somehow invalidates the other person's entire point.

Seriously though, I think it's important to consider that not everybody is able to, for whatever reason, fully grasp all the intricacies of this stupid, bloated language, and that definitely shouldn't be held against them. Not knowing which "too" to use or where to place a comma is in no way an indication of a someones intelligence. Gods know it makes it easier to read, but it shouldn't be any reason to dismiss them.
 

shrekfan246

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May 26, 2011
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Aerosteam said:
"to" and "too"
To be fair, those can be too confusing for some people in their actual application as they both have more than two different uses.

...

>.>

<.<

OT: Correcting somebody online often just isn't worth it. There are very few ways of doing it while not coming across like you're being condescending or patronizing, and most people tend to get defensive when they're confronted like that.

I will say I bristle every time I see someone try justifying "alot", but I mostly stopped letting those things bother me a while ago. There were people who didn't care even when they were in school, I'm sure as Hell not going to be able to make them care now that they're out of it.
 

Twinrehz

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I've gotten more and more used to just ignoring it, I figured out long ago that correcting people online is utterly pointless, at least for the most part. I just wanted to believe that this one guy could do better, and maybe try again to get his point across. Still, that backfired, but it wasn't the reason I made this thread, it was only an example.

What I would like, but which is only a utopian dream, is to get a message across that it matters how you type, and maybe that would get people thinking. If we keep letting it slide, then it will only get worse.

zen5887 said:
Seriously though, I think it's important to consider that not everybody is able to, for whatever reason, fully grasp all the intricacies of this stupid, bloated language, and that definitely shouldn't be held against them. Not knowing which "too" to use or where to place a comma is in no way an indication of a someones intelligence. Gods know it makes it easier to read, but it shouldn't be any reason to dismiss them.
Yes, but in so many cases it comes down to simple laziness, they just don't CARE. They think it's not important, and as a result, our language suffers, or as some would call it, "evolves". Yes, there is evolution in language, but this doesn't seem like the kind of evolution that languages have gone through before, or one that the language would benefit from. The downfall of grammar is not the way to go.

Yes english is bloated, it is after all the concoction of an unknown number of languages, taking influences, phrases and words from all of them. I still feel that it doesn't justify the blatant hackjob that most people do when they type. It's not just a matter of grammar, like saying to who instead of to whom. That's more advanced syntax errors, I'm talking about the basic failing, like using commas to give your sentences a pause, punctuation to give your sentences an end, indicating that a new sentence is about to start, and just plain writing words in whatever random order you feel like. I occasionally encounter sentences without either, it makes me completely lose track of the entire sentence, while I start looking for where one sentence ends and the next one starts, not to mention where the break in a sentence is. Breaking a sentence with commas is important, it allows a new sentence building on the last one to come in.

Just try it; find some random text online, remove all commas, punctuation and capital letters, and see how you fare trying to decipher it.

shrekfan246 said:
I will say I bristle every time I see someone try justifying "alot", but I mostly stopped letting those things bother me a while ago. There were people who didn't care even when they were in school, I'm sure as Hell not going to be able to make them care now that they're out of it.
I actually got a positive feedback once because I write "a lot", mentioning that most people write "alot" instead. I didn't even think about that until then.
 

shrekfan246

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Twinrehz said:
shrekfan246 said:
I will say I bristle every time I see someone try justifying "alot", but I mostly stopped letting those things bother me a while ago. There were people who didn't care even when they were in school, I'm sure as Hell not going to be able to make them care now that they're out of it.
I actually got a positive feedback once because I write "a lot", mentioning that most people write "alot" instead. I didn't even think about that until then.
Eugh.

I made a thread about it once on this forum, and by and large most of the responses were "Why should you care, maaaaaaan, it's just the internet."

I mean, I was mostly just making a silly thread playing off of something I dislike, but then the people who "got it" mostly just accused me of ripping off and not "crediting" Hyperbole and a Half, a blog/webcomic I'd never actually followed, because I used the picture of the Alot from that (because it's impossible to find pictures of that on Google) and my content was fairly similar to other rants which have been made in the past.

So, yeah, I don't care. But some day I hope to be an author and/or English teacher, and then I'll perhaps be able to actually make a difference.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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I can forgive misuse of to and too, also their, there and they're. Sometimes I cross the beams and get those mixed up myself (although I'm usually quick to correct them if I notice). I can even forgive a lot and alot and missing or overused commas.

It's the people who don't bother to capitalize the first letter of a sentence, don't capitalize proper nouns or pay attention to the red squiggle in the text editor that get to me, basically stuff your computer will do for you if you're using Microsoft Word, or things you should have absorbed through elementary school.
 

Queen Michael

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I'm Swedish. Every time I see an obvious error, I think "I'm Swedish, and I know this stuff."
 

Total LOLige

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There really aren't that many people that can't be bothered to use proper spelling, syntax etc. I believe that most of the time it's simply because people don't know how to. It's easier to say "I don't care" instead of "I don't know". I'd say that 3/4 of my English class in year 9 weren't aware of how to use commas and semi-colon. I don't understand why the internet has such contempt for "stupid" people(Well, I do, in that the internet is full of bastards, whatevers, etc, etc).
 

carnex

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I'll try to give you some small insight into the problem.

This is internet, on internet there are people from all around the world. Not everyone has English as their first or even second language. And let's be honest, English as a language is dumb as a pile of hammers. Spelling follows no rules, grammar has less irregulars only compared to German etc.

So be tolerant and be damn pleased that people actually talk your language and that you don't have to learn other languages. I mean, I would love to see you tackle Serbian grammar. Our sentence build, our word changes etc have nothing in common with either Anglican or Germanic languages. Not to mention how many forms each word can take.
 

drh1975

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What irritates me are lack of punctuation and use of the word "defiantly" in place of "definitely." How difficult is it to put an apostrophe in contractions? It's "I'm," not "Im." And then there are the misuses of "your," "there," and "too." "Your" is not the same as "you're." "There," "they're," and "their" are three different words. But, some people think they're interchangeable. The same with "to," "too," and "two."
 

ZedOmega

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Honestly, I don't even notice typos, missing punctuation or homophones anymore. I admit, though, that I'm very tired of people saying 'literally' in a sentence when 'figuratively' makes a lot more sense. "I worked a double shift today. I literally died!" "...how are you still talking?"
 

DefunctTheory

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ZedOmega said:
Honestly, I don't even notice typos, missing punctuation or homophones anymore. I admit, though, that I'm very tired of people saying 'literally' in a sentence when 'figuratively' makes a lot more sense. "I worked a double shift today. I literally died!" "...how are you still talking?"
Technically, 'literally' can now mean the exact same thing as 'virtuallyfiguratively.' The keepers of our language have acknowledged that that's how its used, so that's what it means. Which isn't to say I agree with the change.

EDIT - Not virtually. That's me misusing that word.

As for the original OP... well, for starters, it reads a lot like a rant to me.

To the actual topic itself... I don't expect perfect grammar on the internet, particularly on forums. I understand that most people posting are doing more then one thing at a time, and its hard for most people to successfully edit themselves. It's far easier to spot problems in something you didn't write yourself. And, of course, I can't point too many fingers because I'm really bad at typing. I don't think I've used the proper there/they're/their in almost a decade, and a knock I took years ago affected my muscle control and my feeling sensitivity, both of which affect my typing when it comes to missed keys and the like. I've also recently picked up a habit of typing out words that sound similar to what I'm thinking, but are in no way related, or in some case even remotely spelled similar.

Generally speaking, here's the rule I use - can people easily read what's being typed, and understand the ideas the author is trying to convey? Does putting the wrong they're/there/their make it hard to understand? Not really. Does improper sentence structure? Yes.
 

Pyrian

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If I can read it and easily determine what it's meant to convey, then I don't care in the slightest whether or not it's grammatically correct. If it's incoherent, or, for that matter, deeply misleading, then I don't really care whether or not it's grammatically correct, either. Honestly, I don't think it's terribly relevant in most cases. Sure, I'm not going to waste my time trying to divine the meaning of something too far gone, but that's true of things that are entirely grammatically correct, as well. Grammar is no guarantee of coherence, nevermind accuracy. Some people make lucrative careers out of creating grammatically-perfect male cow feces. And some of the smartest people I know can't spell worth a dang.

Give me clarity and insight, not slavish devotion to an often arbitrary ruleset.
 

Loop Stricken

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Every single error of grammar and syntax infuriates me. It frustrates me to no end that I can't throttle the dimwit posting their incorrect drivel, screeching how much of a dense ************ they are in their face.

Oh, and the excuses! "Hurr durr it's not a PhD, it's not an exam, it's not x, y or z, it's just the Internet". Shut up, you insipid cretin!
Stop perpetuating your shittiness!
 

Ferisar

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I misuse the language on purpose to suit my needs. If I'm talking to others online in a semi-singular sense, I tend to exaggerate and butcher almost all the words that I use. I daresay I try a bit harder on this forum, if only so senpai would notice me (but I'm a GHOOOOOOOOST). Either way, a person saying to me that they "can't be bothered" is often irritating, but then I've had plenty of friends who don't try at all online, but write very clearly in everything else. It's the same for myself most of the time. I often avoid capitalization and punctuation in a relaxed environment because it just seems like I'm tugging myself. What I absolutely CANNOT stand myself doing is spelling things wrong. It just feels bad :D

But yeah, again, the sentiment by which to live here (in my opinion) should never be: "It's not school, so fuck even trying." I'd rather go with saying that it's not necessary to employ the sum of your writing prowess in some comment section or chatroom, but don't live by that.

Also, in the vain hope that Susan still prowls these wilds:

LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY LITERALLY.

Literally

zen5887 said:
I'm a pre service teacher so obviously I'm a pretty big fan of grammar and getting shit right.

Having said that, a forum post or youtube comment isn't really a Phd thesis. I don't think somebody using the wrong "too" or "your" while talking about which Halo is the best really matters that much. In fact, nothing infuriates me more than somebody, no doubt with the smuggest fucking look on their face, commenting with just "you're*". Then they act as if that one small mistake somehow invalidates the other person's entire point.

Seriously though, I think it's important to consider that not everybody is able to, for whatever reason, fully grasp all the intricacies of this stupid, bloated language, and that definitely shouldn't be held against them. Not knowing which "too" to use or where to place a comma is in no way an indication of a someones intelligence. Gods know it makes it easier to read, but it shouldn't be any reason to dismiss them.
OH, I forgot. So, I have a friend who, when engaged in conversation with a very angry teammate or any other online entity, corrected them whenever they used "your" properly with "you're".

They

got

so

mad.
 

cathou

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carnex said:
I'll try to give you some small insight into the problem.

This is internet, on internet there are people from all around the world. Not everyone has English as their first or even second language. And let's be honest, English as a language is dumb as a pile of hammers. Spelling follows no rules, grammar has less irregulars only compared to German etc.

So be tolerant and be damn pleased that people actually talk your language and that you don't have to learn other languages. I mean, I would love to see you tackle Serbian grammar. Our sentence build, our word changes etc have nothing in common with either Anglican or Germanic languages. Not to mention how many forms each word can take.
Exactly what i was thinking first. Why the internet think everyone is using English on a daily basis ? This forum is the only place i use English in pretty much my own life. i could install an English spell checker, but it would go crazy when i'm writing in french. I could try to remember to capitalise the I but it doesnt make sense in my language...
 

gLoveofLove

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I'm in the camp that has no problem with being loose on grammar and spelling as long as it's still comprehensible when it comes to social networking. I feel that when using things like Facebook and any instant messaging that my mind leans more toward a conversational state of mind- rather than a grammatically structured one. As a result, I don't really proofread either. Like I said, my mind is in a conversation so I'm trying to type to keep up with my thoughts.

The other factor as to why I'm lenient on mistakes is because I usually attribute them to just that- a mistake, not ignorance. I give people the benefit of the doubt. For instance, when I write quickly, there are a fair few times when I using the wrong homophone. I usually catch them, but I do occasionally post the mistakes. So when someone corrects me I sit there thinking, "Why? Who are they doing this for?" I know the difference between "where" and "wear". If I know the difference, then there's no point in correcting me except to make yourself feel good. And to be honest, it hurts a little to think that you thought that there was a greater chance of me not knowing that difference than my making a mistake.