Let's talk Borderlands and female characters

[Lemmibl]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how well Gearbox are representing females in their Borderlands games? I didn't play BL1, but both BL2 and BL:TPS are amazing at this. Everyone is an actual person with personal goals, motivations, flaws and personalities. They're people. Not constrained by their gender.

Okay, so there's pretty much only two female body types, but I'd say the same goes for the guys, and it's a modelling/rigging/time constraint/resources issue that is acceptable imo.

It's honestly a little sad that some of the least serious videogames with gratuitous toilet humor and plenty of violent gore are still one of the best at representing women fairly in the AAA industry.

Also: they also represent sexual orientation really well. Everyone's super fine with a character being gay or whatever (Jamie Springs for example), it's not made into a big deal at all.

Am I just being blinded by fanboyism here or am I right? I really think we should concentrate on appreciating and showing the good aspects of the gaming industry just as much as we are complaining about the shitty parts.

edit: Quite sure most characters beat the bechdel test. Not that I think the bechdel test necessarily means anything.

 

[Zhukov]

It's because some of the people involved in making Borderlands 2 are hardcore SJWs.

This shows through in their work. Sometimes intentionally, sometimes not. They totally ruined the series by pushing their bullshit, liberal "inclusive", faux-tolerant agenda down our throats like that,

Disgusting, I know.

...

I'm personally not a fan of the BL games, but I have no problem with this aspect of them.

 

[joest01]

For what it's worth I really enjoy playing Maya and I am warming up to my Athena.

 

[Kopikatsu]

Yeah. The 'they only have two standard body types' criticism kinda falls flat when they have the likes of Ellie and Tiny Tina running around.

I feel like they pushed homosexuality a little too hard though. Nakayama for Jack, Springs for everyone, Zarpedon was implied to may have been (Although she could have been talking about a daughter in context), you find out that Athena slept with Springs in TVHM, etc. (Tina: "OH GIRL YOU HIT THAT? GIMME FIVE!" /slapping sound "That's my girl."). In 2, the only homosexuals were Axton and Nakayama, IIRC.

Now that I think about it, there are probably more homosexual relationships in Borderlands than hetero if we're not counting each of Moxxi's marriages as an individual one.

 

[Ramzal]

I don't think it's a matter of making good female characters, just good characters period. They know how to write characters that are entertaining and interesting and it has nothing to do with their gender.

 

[Saetha]

Hmm. I prefer the inclusivity of series like Dragon Age, maybe because from them I don't get the sense that they're waving their progressiveness in my face like diverse characters are shiny new toys to collect and brag about to other kids. (Okay, some of the guys at BioWare do this too, but mostly on social media and not in their games themselves) I can't really explain WHY I get that sense from Borderlands, I just do. For instance, compare Cortez to, I dunno, that one chick from the Hyperion animal facility in BL2. Cortez had a character and personality when you first meet him, and he doesn't hesitate to display it - he only brings up his husband (ex-husband? Dead husband? Meh) when you press him about his past, and it feels really natural. They did the same with the likes of Leliana, too. But then there's the scientist in Borderlands, where it was, like, the only note-worthy aspect of her character was that she's a lesbian. Due to that fact that the game announced that before... just about anything else about her, it kinda felt like she was just there to lesbian it up. She wasn't the only character that I got that sense from either - the entire Karima quest chain felt like it could've been replaced with a sign that said "Sexism is bad" and let the player go on their merry way.

I guess my problem is I feel like Borderlands is completely lacking in subtlety, which is fine when you're just some random light-hearted comedy, but stops being such when you use your random, light-hearted comedy to try and preach to your audience. I don't entirely enjoy getting lectured at, and I felt like there's just a few too many moments in Borderlands where that's exactly what it does.

 

[PunkRex]

I love how it was a bug that led to Axtons bisexuality and they just rolled with it, Borderlands is a slaughter house, filled with gore and grind but the characters are some of the most fun yet well rounded guys and gals in AAA gaming at the mo. The clip concerning Tina's relationship with Roland at the end of Assault on Dragons Keep was sad times.

 

[Lunar Templar]

not played any of them, I don't do FPS. But from what I've always understood from the friends I have that do play them, the characters, male and female are consistently good. So I guess they know how to do good characters over all regardless of gender.

 

[gigastar]

In 2, the only homosexuals were Axton

Pretty sure Axton is bisexual. Among other things he had a wife, and she left him because he was kicked out of Dhals mercenary force.

As far as i can tell the only source for that was a flirtatious line that could play when he revived someone. Originally he was only meant to flirt with Maya when reviving her, but whether due to bug, oversight or on purpose he could drop that line for anyone.

Since then, Gearbox decided to roll with it and made his bisexuality canon in Assault on Dragon Keep.

 

[Rayce Archer]

I was genuinely surprised when I found out how mad the homosexual characters in BL2 made people, and unsurprisingly TPS even more so. I don't mind it, because I can play a game with gay people in it without feeling pressured to be gay. And it kind of makes sense, Pandora and Elpis are whole worlds of colorful outcasts and iconoclasts so it would be weird if queer culture wasn't represented.

As far as women yeah, they're all pretty good. If you haven't played Nisha, she basically embodies the typical male POV in a video game, right down to anticipating "tapping that" (Jack) once she's fulfilled his missions, and explaining to Springs (who is just adorable, come on) that she doesn't like girls because she "likes 'em handsome." I'm sure there are other sex-is-a-reward violent atavist heroines who judge men largely by appearance in gaming, but she's probably by far the best done.

 

[Banana Cannon]

This is a thing? I was completely unaware, I just personally raged over some missions in which someone sends you to kill something & likely get your ass kicked solo in True Vault Hunter mode, & the most they have for recompense is a gun & some money.

Capcha's "What if?" I add " you could shoot claptrap through his eye lens?"

 

[Scarim Coral]

Yeah. The 'they only have two standard body types' criticism kinda falls flat when they have the likes of Ellie and Tiny Tina running around.

I feel like they pushed homosexuality a little too hard though. Nakayama for Jack, Springs for everyone, Zarpedon was implied to may have been (Although she could have been talking about a daughter in context), you find out that Athena slept with Springs in TVHM, etc. (Tina: "OH GIRL YOU HIT THAT? GIMME FIVE!" /slapping sound "That's my girl."). In 2, the only homosexuals were Axton and Nakayama, IIRC.

Now that I think about it, there are probably more homosexual relationships in Borderlands than hetero if we're not counting each of Moxxi's marriages as an individual one.

You forgot to mention Sir Hammerlock (his former boyfriend was Taggart, the guy who last his hand and was eaten by a stalkers).

OT- Honestly I wouldn't praised them that much for diversity per say (well I will give them credit for having an equal amount of males and females playable characters if you count Claptrap as male or not). I mean the Pre Sequel was just reusing establist characters (Athena was in BL DLC while Nisha is the shieff of Lynchwood in BL2 from the franchise but they did fresh them out in the game.

 

[the December King]

It's fun that there are female playables with cool stories, and the NPCs are interesting, too. Hell, the fact that the Pre-Sequel has two female PCs, one male and a robot is really cool(though personally I'd rather play a Skag).

But all of the human enemies are still white men or midgets. I'd like to have seen some female psychos, bandits and midgets.

Having said that, though, I really liked Borderlands 2. That's an example of criticism despite enjoyment!

 

[Someone Depressing]

A friend of mine who hates this game cited the characters as the only decent part of it.

So. Yay, I guess. Good female characters from a slaughterfest with shit jokes. We've come so far in this industry.

 

[Dizchu]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how well Gearbox are representing females in their Borderlands games?

Debatable. I love me some Borderlands but some of the female representations are troubling. And I don't mean Mad Moxxi.

Also: they also represent sexual orientation really well. Everyone's super fine with a character being gay or whatever (Jamie Springs for example), it's not made into a big deal at all.

Janey Springs came off to me as a token gay character. I played as Athena and during the first encounter Janey was chatting me up. Within 5 minutes of this happening she made references to homophobia and turning down guys (and later there was the extremely cringeworthy exchange with Torgue about "friendzoning").

I mostly like Janey Springs however. She's a fun lesbian character that isn't "butch" or "femme", just an ordinary person. But the way she was introduced... ugghhh. We get it. She is gay. What I preferred about Hammerlock was that he didn't announce during the first encounter that he was gay. It was revealed later and it felt a lot more natural.

I know what the writer(s?) were trying to do. But they ended up making a character that conformed to a very disturbing stereotype. You know how straight men are sometimes wary of gay men because they're afraid that they'd "make a move" on them? It's a misconception about gay people, that because they are interested in people of the same gender that they are attracted to everyone even remotely good-looking. If Janey were a male and was chatting up Athena (my chosen character) on the first encounter I'd feel extremely uncomfortable.

Am I just being blinded by fanboyism here or am I right? I really think we should concentrate on appreciating and showing the good aspects of the gaming industry just as much as we are complaining about the shitty parts.

You're half-right. Borderlands has a refreshingly diverse cast. However much of that "diversity" is expressed through stereotypes. Like I said with Janey Springs. The same is also true of Lilith and Maya. They're "sirens" for god's sake, supernatural mythical creatures known for using seduction of males (with their hyperfeminine good looks) to ensnare and destroy them (other than that they're pretty cool though).

And before someone claims that I dislike Laney's portrayal because I'm homophobic, I was upset that Lilith got together with Roland because I was hoping she'd be gay (dammit! Ahahaha).

edit: Quite sure most characters beat the bechdel test. Not that I think the bechdel test necessarily means anything.

I must commend Borderlands for this, though.

As a sidenote, the writer Anthony Burch is someone I really do not like. I think his "SJW" (hate that term) tendencies have bled into his writing so he's trying way too hard to write a diverse cast rather than a realistic one.

TL;DR: Gay people are fantastic but please, I can tell when you're trying too hard [Gearbox/2K/Anthony Burch].

 

[Netrigan]

Hmm. I prefer the inclusivity of series like Dragon Age, maybe because from them I don't get the sense that they're waving their progressiveness in my face like diverse characters are shiny new toys to collect and brag about to other kids. (Okay, some of the guys at BioWare do this too, but mostly on social media and not in their games themselves) I can't really explain WHY I get that sense from Borderlands, I just do. For instance, compare Cortez to, I dunno, that one chick from the Hyperion animal facility in BL2. Cortez had a character and personality when you first meet him, and he doesn't hesitate to display it - he only brings up his husband (ex-husband? Dead husband? Meh) when you press him about his past, and it feels really natural. They did the same with the likes of Leliana, too. But then there's the scientist in Borderlands, where it was, like, the only note-worthy aspect of her character was that she's a lesbian. Due to that fact that the game announced that before... just about anything else about her, it kinda felt like she was just there to lesbian it up. She wasn't the only character that I got that sense from either - the entire Karima quest chain felt like it could've been replaced with a sign that said "Sexism is bad" and let the player go on their merry way.

I guess my problem is I feel like Borderlands is completely lacking in subtlety, which is fine when you're just some random light-hearted comedy, but stops being such when you use your random, light-hearted comedy to try and preach to your audience. I don't entirely enjoy getting lectured at, and I felt like there's just a few too many moments in Borderlands where that's exactly what it does.

The scientist was being blackmailed into unethical research because of threats made against her wife. That's really all there is to it. It's as natural as blackmailing someone into unethical research because of threats being made against her husband. They're just treating all types of marriage as natural and you run into people who have been involved in all sorts of relationships. Jenny Sparks having a crush on Moxxi is no different than Scooter having a crush on various people, both being played for laughs. Sir Hammerlocke mentioning an old ex is no different from Moxxi mentioning an old ex. It's all stuff that straight people do all the time and they're simply applying the same rules to gay people.

Perhaps there's statistically too many gay people in the Borderlands Universe, but it's not like there's some other statistically over-represented group in gaming, which a certain segment of the audience gets upset about whenever someone points out said group is statistically over-represented.

Personally, I prefer the silliness of the Faker Gamer Guy stuff involve Torque instead of having the most amoral character in GTA V delivering sermons about why it was wrong to do what Rockstar just had the player do. One is playing around with expectations by reversing the usual accusation, the other is not trusting the writing of the scene to deliver the intended message and having to have a character explain that Rockstar is not endorsing torture of private border patrols. Seriously, Trevor is the game's voice of reason. Trevor. WTF.

 

[Netrigan]

Can we just take a moment to appreciate how well Gearbox are representing females in their Borderlands games? I didn't play BL1, but both BL2 and BL:TPS are amazing at this. Everyone is an actual person with personal goals, motivations, flaws and personalities. They're people. Not constrained by their gender.

Okay, so there's pretty much only two female body types, but I'd say the same goes for the guys, and it's a modelling/rigging/time constraint/resources issue that is acceptable imo.

It's honestly a little sad that some of the least serious videogames with gratuitous toilet humor and plenty of violent gore are still one of the best at representing women fairly in the AAA industry.

Also: they also represent sexual orientation really well. Everyone's super fine with a character being gay or whatever (Jamie Springs for example), it's not made into a big deal at all.

Am I just being blinded by fanboyism here or am I right? I really think we should concentrate on appreciating and showing the good aspects of the gaming industry just as much as we are complaining about the shitty parts.

edit: Quite sure most characters beat the bechdel test. Not that I think the bechdel test necessarily means anything.

The Borderlands series is good at this, has been for years. Heck, let's not forget Ellie from BL2; not only a strong independent woman making it on her own (with a classically "macho" job no less) in a hostile environment, but also perfectly happy with herself being a woman of...proportion. Hell, through an echo log from her mother

Spoiler

Moxxi

it demonstrated the social pressure such women face to be thin and sexy. I'm not trying to be a SJW fanboy here, but it is nice to see a game that is willing to explore the full range of human experiences, not just limit itself to classically handsome and macho straight white 30-something men.

This would have never been any more than a one-note joke in most games, but GearBox gave us an actual character.

I like to say there's a surprising amount of depth to Borderlands. Not that it's particularly deep, but Sir Hammerlocke isn't The Gay Guy, he's the English Explorer Guy... and he happens to be gay. Ellie's not a particularly deep character, but there's more going on there than just being The Fat Girl. In many ways, her character is resisting society's need to label her as The Fat Girl and is largely unconcerned by their attempts. She's just being herself while other people are trying to attach their label to her. Even when she plays their game by going after the statues designed to make fun of her, she wants them because she thinks they're awesome.

Even someone like Moxxi, who is definitely playing into the vamp character for all its worth, is more than simply a walking sexual innuendo as the game gets a bit of humor out of watching her mask slip, such as when she's arguing with her ex and gets so upset she temporarily loses the ability to make sex jokes.

Short version, the characters can surprise you.