Let's talk Borderlands and female characters

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Saetha

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Netrigan said:
The scientist was being blackmailed into unethical research because of threats made against her wife. That's really all there is to it. It's as natural as blackmailing someone into unethical research because of threats being made against her husband. They're just treating all types of marriage as natural and you run into people who have been involved in all sorts of relationships. Jenny Sparks having a crush on Moxxi is no different than Scooter having a crush on various people, both being played for laughs. Sir Hammerlocke mentioning an old ex is no different from Moxxi mentioning an old ex. It's all stuff that straight people do all the time and they're simply applying the same rules to gay people.

Perhaps there's statistically too many gay people in the Borderlands Universe, but it's not like there's some other statistically over-represented group in gaming, which a certain segment of the audience gets upset about whenever someone points out said group is statistically over-represented.

Personally, I prefer the silliness of the Faker Gamer Guy stuff involve Torque instead of having the most amoral character in GTA V delivering sermons about why it was wrong to do what Rockstar just had the player do. One is playing around with expectations by reversing the usual accusation, the other is not trusting the writing of the scene to deliver the intended message and having to have a character explain that Rockstar is not endorsing torture of private border patrols. Seriously, Trevor is the game's voice of reason. Trevor. WTF.
I can't speak for GTAV - never played it. And I really don't mind if BL has a statisical saturation of gay characters, and I'm not trying to say it always does it wrong. The series has certainly had some successes. But I feel like it tries to lecture me just a bit too much, something that series like Dragon Age either don't do, or manage to naturally fit into their story.

*Shrug* It's just my feelings on the matter. You can think it's a pinnacle of how diversity should be if you want, I just feel it's a little too heavy-handed to do anything other than preach to the choir.
 

Netrigan

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Saetha said:
Netrigan said:
The scientist was being blackmailed into unethical research because of threats made against her wife. That's really all there is to it. It's as natural as blackmailing someone into unethical research because of threats being made against her husband. They're just treating all types of marriage as natural and you run into people who have been involved in all sorts of relationships. Jenny Sparks having a crush on Moxxi is no different than Scooter having a crush on various people, both being played for laughs. Sir Hammerlocke mentioning an old ex is no different from Moxxi mentioning an old ex. It's all stuff that straight people do all the time and they're simply applying the same rules to gay people.

Perhaps there's statistically too many gay people in the Borderlands Universe, but it's not like there's some other statistically over-represented group in gaming, which a certain segment of the audience gets upset about whenever someone points out said group is statistically over-represented.

Personally, I prefer the silliness of the Faker Gamer Guy stuff involve Torque instead of having the most amoral character in GTA V delivering sermons about why it was wrong to do what Rockstar just had the player do. One is playing around with expectations by reversing the usual accusation, the other is not trusting the writing of the scene to deliver the intended message and having to have a character explain that Rockstar is not endorsing torture of private border patrols. Seriously, Trevor is the game's voice of reason. Trevor. WTF.
I can't speak for GTAV - never played it. And I really don't mind if BL has a statisical saturation of gay characters, and I'm not trying to say it always does it wrong. The series has certainly had some successes. But I feel like it tries to lecture me just a bit too much, something that series like Dragon Age either don't do, or manage to naturally fit into their story.

*Shrug* It's just my feelings on the matter. You can think it's a pinnacle of how diversity should be if you want, I just feel it's a little too heavy-handed to do anything other than preach to the choir.
The story is a goof. It and Saints Row are my prime examples of how you can deal with these issues and not drag down the fun factor. The Fake Gamer Guy bit is one of the most on-the-nose bits of writing in the entire series and it's mostly just funny. I never really get that Very Special Episode vibe of it, even though it has all the subtlety of a sledge hammer to the face.

But Rockstar is awful about doing that Very Special Episode style monologues. GTA IV and Red Dead Redemption are filled with over-long conversations where they lay out the freakin' moral of the story over and over and over and over and over again. Yes, we get it, these are violent men who are trying to change their ways, but keep getting dragged back into the violence by people from their past. I don't need 29 conversations stating this exact thing every time I travel from Point A to Point B.

Borderlands brings the funny and the explosions when they preach.
 

The Goat Tsar

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My only problem with praising Borderlands for its character diversity is that it does a poor job in other areas besides gender. In the first game, the cast was fairly balanced racially: two white, one hispanic and one black. Of course, the entirety of the supporting cast was white, but whatever. Then in Borderlands 2, Salvador was the only non-white character in a cast of 6. So we've gone down from 50% to 16%. But it's ok because they added Sir Hammerlock, right? He's black, gay, British, and crippled! It's almost like they realized they were killing off the one black guy in the story and added in a super diversity character to try and make up for it.

And now in the two new games (Pre-Sequel and the Telltale game) there are absolutely no non-white characters. Besides Claptrap. (And Nisha looks like she could be black, but if I had to put money on it, I'd say she was just white with darker skin)
 

Lemmibl

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The Goat Tsar said:
My only problem with praising Borderlands for its character diversity is that it does a poor job in other areas besides gender.
. . .
I absolutely agree, but one step at a time, I guess? It WAS sort of supposed to be space-australia. I don't know how many non-caucasian looking people there are in australia, but I'm assuming quite a lot of the population is from SEA..... Yeah.

And I think people are bringing up some strong points that struck a chord with me about how they're sort of really overt about how their characters are for example homosexual. I think it can at least partly be blamed on the "Borderlands writing style" in the sense that everything IS overt. It really isn't a subtle game in any way. Not that it's excusable.

About the allegations towards the writing crew and being... social justice warriors... well, I can think of many worse things to be than being an SJW. Is it really such a bad thing to care about social inequality and such? These people are creators for quite a large industry. I really don't think it's too bad of a thing to try and use their game as a soapbox to try and influence people in the right direction. No matter how hamfisted or overt.

As you can probably tell, I don't really spend that much time on the "drama parts" of the internet, so I'm really not that up to date with the whole "SJWs are bad people" thing.
 

Netrigan

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Lemmibl said:
And I think people are bringing up some strong points that struck a chord with me about how they're sort of really overt about how their characters are for example homosexual. I think it can at least partly be blamed on the "Borderlands writing style" in the sense that everything IS overt. It really isn't a subtle game in any way. Not that it's excusable.
I'm a bit mystified that it's considered over-done. Not too long ago, I was talking about Sir Hammerlock being gay and the guy I was talking to hadn't even noticed it, because apart from mentioning an old boyfriend here and there it's not something he goes on about a lot. Axton and Torque are bisexual, but for the life of me I have no idea when this was revealed on-screen... I must have been shooting something when they said it or maybe I had to be playing as Axton to get the dialogue. And we get a lesbian character in the Pre-Sequel where a running joke is she's got a crush on Moxxi. There's a couple of instances where ECHO recordings involve gay couples.

I can name much more obvious examples of straight characters bringing up their love life. Moxxi talks non-stop about her exes and there's several missions involving her fighting with one of her exes during the mission. In the latest game, Handsome Jack is hitting on Nisha from the jump... and even if you don't play as her, there's a mission where you find an ECHO recording where he's clearly interested in her. There's a couple of missions in Borderlands 2 where you have to deal with Scooter's love life. Two of the old Vault Hunters are engaged in a relationship, which is central to the plot of the second game.

To me, the game is treating these relationships in more or less the exact same manner, with straight relationships playing a much more central role to the main narrative. And no one is really doing the Look At How Gay I Am game, they're just folks who like matching naughty bits.
 

Eddie the head

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Zhukov said:
It's because some of the people involved in making Borderlands 2 are hardcore SJWs.
If Borderlands is what happens when "SJW" make a game I think I might become a misogynist.

Someone Depressing said:
A friend of mine who hates this game cited the characters as the only decent part of it.

So. Yay, I guess. Good female characters from a slaughterfest with shit jokes. We've come so far in this industry.
Pretty much. I'd rather play a good game with shit characters then a bad game with good characters.
 

briankoontz

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Lemmibl said:
Can we just take a moment to appreciate how well Gearbox are representing females in their Borderlands games? I didn't play BL1, but both BL2 and BL:TPS are amazing at this. Everyone is an actual person with personal goals, motivations, flaws and personalities. They're people. Not constrained by their gender.

Okay, so there's pretty much only two female body types, but I'd say the same goes for the guys, and it's a modelling/rigging/time constraint/resources issue that is acceptable imo.

It's honestly a little sad that some of the least serious videogames with gratuitous toilet humor and plenty of violent gore are still one of the best at representing women fairly in the AAA industry.

Also: they also represent sexual orientation really well. Everyone's super fine with a character being gay or whatever (Jamie Springs for example), it's not made into a big deal at all.
You're confusing developer preferences for character preferences. A gay developer could create a game featuring genocide against homosexuals and that wouldn't be a mark against the game. Any developer can produce any content.

If your argument is - well *I* wouldn't enjoy such a game then - why not? Maybe you would learn something about genocide, about the way societies go about selecting their genocidal target, and/or about the basis for heterosexuals to hate homosexuals.

In terms of how the Borderlands series treats it's characters, the most prominent distinction is in whether or not a character can be "killed" (in quotes since all enemies respawn) by the protagonist. The "upper class" of characters are the ones who get special intros and cannot be killed, the "middle class" of characters are boss enemies who get special intros and can (and must with respect to plot progress) be killed, and finally the "lower class" of characters are regular enemies who get no special intro and who are genocided for experience, loot, and to progress through the game.

Your "actual person" remark - you're really comparing these cardboard characters to living human beings in the real world? After the dandified special intro introducing them as Super Stylish these characters do nothing but have occasional basic dialogue (these games are no Planescape: Torment), give out quests and rewards, and stand there.

I agree for the most part that the characters in the Borderlands series aren't constrained by their *gender*. They are constrained largely by the Saving the World, One Corpse at a Time game design philosophy which sets the protagonist off on a long-term murder spree that only ends when the game ends, when the Big Bad is dead.

As the Bee Gees can tell you, a man on a mission has no time to talk. As Roddy Piper can tell you - I'm here to kick ass and chew bubblegum, and I'm all out of bubblegum. Video game characters make The Terminator seem like a bastion of tolerance and restraint in comparison.

When we examine the chauvinism in game design we need to look at the "man on a mission", the "Hero's Journey", the saving the world, one corpse at a time. It's about the game design underpinnings of genocide and the Dungeons and Dragons conceit of empowering oneself through cleansing the world of "evil creatures", nevermind that the "heroes" are always the ones invading foreign lands and not surprisingly receiving a cold welcome as they emerge brandishing swords and deadly spells and talking about "phat loot". Then in "self defense", Stand Your Ground in other words, they go all George Zimmerman on the "monsters". Don't worry though - unlike George Zimmerman the "heroes" don't leave witnesses, just a dungeon full of corpses.

Why is the world always in need of saving? Why is there never time to talk? Why are creatures pushed to the margins of society genocided in order to further empower the "surface dwellers"?

It's funny. When Hitler demonized Jews and others and "leveled up" and gained "phat loot" by exterminating them we critically examine and reject his concept of his victims as "monsters". But when Dungeons and Dragons tells you monsters are monsters, well then, Dungeons and Dragons must be correct. The argument is that "it's correct because it's fictional" or "it's correct because killing monsters is fun". But why aren't the statements "it's incorrect because it's anti-thesis is also fictional" or "um, why is killing monsters so fun?" just as relevant?

If we claim that the "monsters" in Dungeons and Dragons are actually just metaphors for marginalized humans, that doesn't change the fact that the creatures, whatever they are, are still fictional. So this brings us to our desired effect upon these fictional creatures.

The protagonist could have any relationship at all to fictional creatures in a work of art. This begs the question then of why in video games the "hero's journey" nearly always involves mass murder as a response to marginalized creatures? Is that the modern definition of a hero - one who is willing to do anything, up to and especially including mass murder, in order to "preserve society"?

During the Vietnam War the United States military tortured Vietcong and civilians, ostensibly to benefit the "American way of life". This was shocking because the US had never officially sanctioned torture previously. The self-delusion of the American public led to "surprise" regarding Dick Cheney's "We also have to work, though, sort of the dark side" and Abu Ghraib, as if these were new things. To people obsessed with maintaining positive self-image to the point of willed amnesia, they *were* new.

Video games as well as Dungeons and Dragons, culturally and temporaneously, also emerged out of the Vietnam War, the time when what it means to be a Western hero defending Western civilization changed from John Wayne to Arnold Schwarzenegger. What America lacked in the Vietnam War was enough muscle to crush their enemies, so Conan the Barbarian emerged to squash the moral decay of the snake-like James Earl Jones, and "action heroes" from Charles Bronson to Clint Eastwood to Chuck Norris to Mr. Schwarzenegger taught us that steely resolve, a condescending glinting eye and moral aloofness, a flurry of bullets, and an unending quest for maximum muscle were the solutions America needed to continue to be-straddle a subject world. Fallout from this model has produced the Bro culture of today.

But none of these bastions of Western domination could ever contemplate the brutality and ruthlessness of a Dungeons and Dragons hero or video game protagonist, who demonize their victims, consider them not just sub-human but monsters devoid of receiving any shred of empathy, and who exist solely to provide not just XP and loot, but the ever-valued thing called "fun" to a Western population which is losing control of the world and fears for their future.
 

Shamanic Rhythm

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Borderlands just pushes everything to extremes. I wouldn't describe its female characters as being superior to other games by virtue of design, but considering that everything it touches upon is considered a fair target of ridicule it has a kind of perverse egalitarianism to it.
 

Vault101

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8bitOwl said:
I'm a bit mixed on Ellie....I get what they were going for but they kept drawing attention to her weight and such, that said Borderlands actually seem to know what they are doing

I don't have issues with their "sexy" characters....in fact my issue lies in the fact there are few female enemies, particularly "standard" ones
Shamanic Rhythm said:
Borderlands just pushes everything to extremes. I wouldn't describe its female characters as being superior to other games by virtue of design, but considering that everything it touches upon is considered a fair target of ridicule it has a kind of perverse egalitarianism to it.
I think this is actually the difference between...saaaay saints row/borderlands and GTA

GTA might be defended on the grounds of "everythings up for ridicule!" but the game is still lopsided when ti comes to female representation

at least women in Saints row/Borderlands do shit
 

Voulan

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If there's one thing I love Borderlands for, and I love a lot of things about Borderlands, it's the character diversity. The only thing that needs doing now is adding female enemy types, like psychos and bandits.
 

joest01

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I like the idea of the female enemy types. Don't know why, but a female badass psycho would be absolutely terrifying :)

But I think I understand why their not doing it. Historically when do you send in women and children. Right, when you're on your last leg. So it would add an unwanted layer to the conflict.

It's common practice in zombie games. Because zombies spread their love evenly in the population. Same for viruses (resident Evil, remember their not zombies :)).

Now that I think about it, Borderlands isn't really about geopolitics is it. It's corporate warfare. So forget all I said and send in the ladies!
 

Kopikatsu

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briankoontz said:
I should point out that Borderlands is perhaps one of the least 'worthy' targets of this rant. The protagonists do regularly go on genocidal murder sprees for funsies. And they're all treated like psychopaths in-universe, both by other characters and their own dialogue within the game. There is no disconnect there, where the protagonists are framed as heroic despite killing people, in some cases, just because they felt like killing something that day. The utter lack of justification or attempt to hide the protagonist's unabashed sadism is what makes Borderlands Borderlands.
 

The Lunatic

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I think there is an odd lack of female enemies in the game.

There's no female psychos, midgets, or anything like that. And that seems more than a little unnerving given Burch's track record.

I mean, you basically spend the entire game slaughtering a bunch of guys, with very little exceptions. The uproar if the roles were reversed would be astonishing, I find it odd it's so acceptable for the flip side.

It certainly would not be a game which is hailed for "Good representations" at the very least.
 

Kopikatsu

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The Lunatic said:
I think there is an odd lack of female enemies in the game.

There's no female psychos, midgets, or anything like that. And that seems more than a little unnerving given Burch's track record.

I mean, you basically spend the entire game slaughtering a bunch of guys, with very little exceptions. The uproar if the roles were reversed would be astonishing, I find it odd it's so acceptable for the flip side.

It certainly would not be a game which is hailed for "Good representations" at the very least.
An explanation for that was given in BL2 in the Caustic Caverns IIRC. I don't remember what that explanation was, but I know one was given. Think it was something about the Bandits all being convicts who were shipped to Pandora by Dahl as slave labor for their mining camps? It's been too long.
 

The Lunatic

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Kopikatsu said:
An explanation for that was given in BL2 in the Caustic Caverns IIRC. I don't remember what that explanation was, but I know one was given. Think it was something about the Bandits all being convicts who were shipped to Pandora by Dahl as slave labor for their mining camps? It's been too long.

"They're all criminals and slaves, thus can only be male".


Yeahh... That's not really an okay thing.
 

The Goat Tsar

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Lemmibl said:
The Goat Tsar said:
My only problem with praising Borderlands for its character diversity is that it does a poor job in other areas besides gender.
. . .
I absolutely agree, but one step at a time, I guess? It WAS sort of supposed to be space-australia. I don't know how many non-caucasian looking people there are in australia, but I'm assuming quite a lot of the population is from SEA..... Yeah.
I understand that it's supposed to be space Australia, but I don't get why that would be justification for an all white cast. We have a funny robot and a cyborg running around on the moon of a far away planet shooting laser guns at space banditos. But a black Australian? WHOA, let's not get crazy.
 

Netrigan

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Voulan said:
If there's one thing I love Borderlands for, and I love a lot of things about Borderlands, it's the character diversity. The only thing that needs doing now is adding female enemy types, like psychos and bandits.
In some ways, I think it's just a problem of Borderlands not really becoming Borderlands until the DLCs of the first game. The original game seems to be going for a dangerous frontier where women are rare. They kind of got stuck with a lot of that in the sequel.

And even in the DLCs, the humor was a bit off, like when we have to break into the prison to go after one of Moxxi's exes. The gay and rape jokes are cringe-worthy.
 

Adam Jensen_v1legacy

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The Lunatic said:
"They're all criminals and slaves, thus can only be male".


Yeahh... That's not really an okay thing.
Right. Because we all have to be politically correct about everything ever all the time for as long as the universe exists. Why the fuck do people give a shit about this? It's a fun game with a weird and often crude sense of humor. That's it.