Let's try to determine if Harry Potter was actually ever any good.

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Kwak

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The experience of reading itself was compelling and evocative, therefore, yes. That itself is worthy enough to be called 'good'. We need things like that in our lives.

In the long-term it was kind of emotionally and intellectually frustrating. So it's the equivalent of junk food - it tastes good immediately but there's no real nutritional sustenance.
At least in this case there's no real-world consequences to our moments of shallow enjoyment. So in the end, yes, it's good.
 

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
In short, Harry Potter is the attempt of an obscenely privileged person to write about the struggles of class, race and status and with all due respect, she's not nearly smart enough to do so in spite of her own privilege.
Just going to go ahead and address this point.

JK Rowling wasn't super privileged when she started writing Harry Potter. In fact she was on welfare and nearly homeless with a child. The Harry Potter books made her obscenely rich, but that doesn't mean that she never experienced struggles with regards to class and status. I'll give you the race one though.
 

Gordon_4_v1legacy

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CrazyGirl17 said:
I've been reading the series ever since my grandmother bought the first one for me (wow, was that over 20 years ago? Damn I feel old...) I still like the books, especially for the world-building and (to me anyway) impressive use of the Chekhov's gun trope.

I will say there are flaws, though, such as the romantic elements that aren't the best. But I still love the series to pieces, and that's good enough for me. (Even if I don't see "Harry Potter and the Cursed Child" as canon.)

It always bothered me that after the fourth book, people's opinion of Harry changed so they treated him more of a nuisance than a hero. Then years ago, I came to a realization: the people of the British Wizarding world is full of short-sighted hypocrites who don't deserve Harry. But he'll save them all anyway because of his hero complex... and the fact that the alternative is much worse...
...I'm just now realizing how that angry that sounds after I typed it out...
The problem with Harry, is that for all the he's a good kid - and he is - he's also a bit of a twat. I mean it makes him a million times more relatable to the audience and he's what, 17 at the oldest in the books? I don't expect the same sort of rational decision making out an emotionally traumatized teenager so yeah he makes dumb, heat of the moment decisions that due to the shit that is his life tend to have tragic consequences.

I mean you're right, Wizarding Britain is largely populated with fucking idiots. And I don't give a fuck how much Snape loved Lily Potter, he still threw in with the Death Eaters and as such should have been hung from a fucking parapet. And that includes everyone left over from the last battle of Hogwarts: every fucking adult should have been executed as traitors.
 

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EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
 

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Gordon_4 said:
I mean you're right, Wizarding Britain is largely populated with fucking idiots. And I don't give a fuck how much Snape loved Lily Potter, he still threw in with the Death Eaters and as such should have been hung from a fucking parapet. And that includes everyone left over from the last battle of Hogwarts: every fucking adult should have been executed as traitors.
It's explicitly stated that the last time that happened, everyone claimed they were mind controlled so they had to be let go. Which makes sense.

Ok, yeah, the wizards have multiple, infallible methods of determining whether or not this is the case they just don't bother using, which is a bit odd.
 

EvilRoy

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McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
I am now even more confused as to how we got from that to the story linked in the OP, but like the book in question, couldn't be bothered to really read it. I'll take the blame for that one, but I want to point out my parents refused to buy me Clifford the Big Red Dog when I was a child and university later sucked all the remaining joy out of my personal reading.

I did see the picture though. They went right for Bowie on that character design.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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EvilRoy said:
McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
I am now even more confused as to how we got from that to the story linked in the OP, but like the book in question, couldn't be bothered to really read it. I'll take the blame for that one, but I want to point out my parents refused to buy me Clifford the Big Red Dog when I was a child and university later sucked all the remaining joy out of my personal reading.

I did see the picture though. They went right for Bowie on that character design.
The Fantastic Beasts and Where to find Them movies are not based on the book by the same name. The book, as far as I know, is just a textbook on some of creatures in the Harry Potter universe. As a matter of fact these movies aren't based on a book at all. They're prequels to Harry Potter but they only exist as movies. Rowling did write the screenplay, though.
 

EvilRoy

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
EvilRoy said:
McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
McElroy said:
EvilRoy said:
I've not read Fantastic Beasts, but I feel quite confident in saying that attempting to base a critique of government on anything in it is extremely stupid.
Fantastic Beasts and Where to Find Them is a small book Rowling wrote for fun and charity. The content is literally what it says on the cover and it takes less than 30 minutes to read through it. I assure you that no critique of governments, fictional or otherwise, exists in it.

OT: Being an adult fan of HP is rather cringeworthy, yes. They were among the best reading experiences I had as a kid, and the books are still a great example of a damn good Finnish translation.
I am now even more confused as to how we got from that to the story linked in the OP, but like the book in question, couldn't be bothered to really read it. I'll take the blame for that one, but I want to point out my parents refused to buy me Clifford the Big Red Dog when I was a child and university later sucked all the remaining joy out of my personal reading.

I did see the picture though. They went right for Bowie on that character design.
The Fantastic Beasts and Where to find Them movies are not based on the book by the same name. The book, as far as I know, is just a textbook on some of creatures in the Harry Potter universe. As a matter of fact these movies aren't based on a book at all. They're prequels to Harry Potter but they only exist as movies. Rowling did write the screenplay, though.
That seem weird to me, but I guess its a pretty good title so I can see the attraction. Maybe it features a lot of the beasts in said locations as part of the plot?
 

Thaluikhain

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EvilRoy said:
Maybe it features a lot of the beasts in said locations as part of the plot?
That is what people expected, some of them wanted, and what they absolutely did not get.
 

Something Amyss

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I don't know about childhood nostalgia. The first book was published when i was 17. I didn't read it until after the movie had been released and was on cable (I watched a few minutes once). The most nostalgic thing for me is that I bought a used paperback copy of it in a bookstore that I loved that no longer exists.

Harry Potter is a fun read (most of the time), but it's always been one of those "don't think too hard" pieces. Rowlin g is ham-fisted and clumsy and does really bad job at relaying her points, and this is a series I'd rip to shreds if...well, I've already ripped it to shreds in terms of critique, but I might actually literally rip the books up if they weren't also dumb fun.

They're not that deep, they're not that clever, and the deus ex magicka means they're often written with escape clauses, but hey, that's Star Wars. Just replace "magic" with "the Force" and I can make the same complaints.

Are the books really good? Depends on what you're looking for. Me, I was looking to kill time while my car was being repaired, and it was a fun read. If I was looking for an intelligent political treatise, I'd ask myself why I was reading the further adventures of Orphan Jesus and the Two Apostles.
 

Kyrian007

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I was too old when the books came out to be in the target audience (although I have read the books since mostly to understand the references and be able to converse about them with my nieces and nephews) so I don't really have the "nostalgia" factor going. But I can address this issue...
PsychedelicDiamond said:
For all that does work about Harry Potter, there's also a lot that doesn't, though, and frequently it doesn't get brought up because people aprroach it with more good will than it deserves, mostly for reasons of personal childhood nostalgia. I don't mean to dwell on formal issues like both the hero and the villain being remarkably dull characters (To give credit where credit is due, it does have a pretty strong supporting cast)
Well, you solved that one yourself when you brought up
PsychedelicDiamond said:
There are elements to the Harry Potter series that, I think, mostly hold up. The good old hero's journey, the campbellian monomyth
Now, its not a requirement for the hero's journey to feature the bland main character and far more interesting side characters... but its a common feature of big, successful franchises that often also use the "hero's journey" because its comforting and familiar story structure. Cracked.com explained it better than I could, so here's the link (also, its just a funny vid.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrbKuOaVF3k

So that is why Harry is blander than his co-stars, and Voldemort just reflects that because he is (again familiarly) a reflection of our hero. Better stories might have figured out that common "reflection of the hero" villains CAN be more interesting than the hero (look at just about every Batman villain... ever) but that's really the only fault of JK's on that score. Harry being bland is a feature, not a flaw, and part of what makes the story a success.
 

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I read it is a teenager. As near as I remember it's fine. Nothing amazing that you need to have read, but certainly perfectly adequate as an adventure story about a young hero who was destined to beat a magical manifestation of pure evil.

PsychedelicDiamond said:
We get some idea where Lord Voldemort came from but we fail to learn how exactly he managed to rise to power. To gain support. To maintain it long after his apparent death. And this is where the series stumbles. Where it doesn't live up to its own potential. It still, overall, promotes positive morals, there's very little about it that'd strike me as genuinely harmful for a person growing up the way something like Twilight is (And believe me, I could have a field day with it) but the worst thing a fan of it could do is failing to move on from it.
On this specifically. Have you seen dragon ball? If so, do you remember that time when Goku defeated the red ribbon army. All of them. In pretty much one fell swoop. Well, I took it that something like that was going on. Harry Potter's world is one where some people are immeasurably stronger than others, even before any politics and help. At one point Dumbledore just straight up knocks out all of a team of cops sent to arrest him, within a second, without seriously harming them. He doesn't need to because they are barely a threat to him. Voldemort has succeeded in making himself close to immortal. He can kill pretty much anyone he wants to if he really puts his mind to it, he can teleport around in several ways, can read Harries mind across the world and may or may not have cursed his own name. This kind of power difference takes away an important element of our politics, that we are all powerless when alone against a group. This simply doesn't hold for Voldemort and he presumably leveraged that to instill fear into others and get more power. In that way Harry Potter just isn't altogether analogous to our world and our politics.

The rest of the answer answer would be that part of his following was racists (the Malfoys), some other parts sadistic nutjobs (Bellatrix) attracted to Voldemorts way of doing things, and the rest people who thought he would win and didn't want to get on his bad side (that rat guy whose hand got cut off, the Malfoys again). It is not that hard to see where those people came from. There was a lot of racism in the Harry Potter world. The school they go to has four alignments: brave (hero's), hardworking (saps), smart (nerds) and pureblood (racists). There was also a lot of cruelty going around. Remember how the government uses inhumane happiness sucking demons as their prison guards? Remember how the school janitor was in favor of torturing the students? And like you said, the trust in the official powers that be was understandably fairly low. Everyone has infiltrated everyone else. So all of that and there are always some crazy people around.

And I'm not really sure Voldemort doesn't really matter all that much. He's just really evil and needs to be stopped. Where he came from and the politics of how he got followers is less interesting than the events happening in the story right now.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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Pseudonym said:
On this specifically. Have you seen dragon ball? If so, do you remember that time when Goku defeated the red ribbon army. All of them. In pretty much one fell swoop. Well, I took it that something like that was going on. Harry Potter's world is one where some people are immeasurably stronger than others, even before any politics and help. At one point Dumbledore just straight up knocks out all of a team of cops sent to arrest him, within a second, without seriously harming them. He doesn't need to because they are barely a threat to him. Voldemort has succeeded in making himself close to immortal. He can kill pretty much anyone he wants to if he really puts his mind to it, he can teleport around in several ways, can read Harries mind across the world and may or may not have cursed his own name. This kind of power difference takes away an important element of our politics, that we are all powerless when alone against a group. This simply doesn't hold for Voldemort and he presumably leveraged that to instill fear into others and get more power. In that way Harry Potter just isn't altogether analogous to our world and our politics.
Yes, I have seen OG Dragonball. Not in a long time, to be honest, but I have seen it and I remember some of it quite fondly, unlike Dragonball Z, which I think is really awful. Now, Dragon Ball established rather early that Goku was from an alien race that's physically superior to humans and that, when pitted against normal human enemies, Goku would probably wipe the floor with them, even before he trained with Muten Roshi. That was, of course, before Dragonball Z came along and turned a lighthearted story about a goofy kid travelling the world to recover magical wishgranting balls into endless, repetetive wankery about which alien superhero can wipe out more planets with their farts. But I digress. Yes, it is established that Voldemort and Dumbledore are exceptionally powerful wizards but the books mostly treat magic capabilities as a result of study and practice, rather than something some people are just inherently more powerful at than others. In fact a lot about the greater themes hinge on acknowledging that the wizards who think they're better at magic, just because the can trace their wizard ancestry back to ancient times, are full of shit. Dumbledore and Voldermort are exceptionally powerful wizards because they're very old and dedicated most of their lifes to studying magic. Young Tom Riddle, before he managed to cheat death by using horcruxes, could have probably been stopped.

Pseudonym said:
The rest of the answer answer would be that part of his following was racists (the Malfoys), some other parts sadistic nutjobs (Bellatrix) attracted to Voldemorts way of doing things, and the rest people who thought he would win and didn't want to get on his bad side (that rat guy whose hand got cut off, the Malfoys again). It is not that hard to see where those people came from. There was a lot of racism in the Harry Potter world. The school they go to has four alignments: brave (hero's), hardworking (saps), smart (nerds) and pureblood (racists). There was also a lot of cruelty going around. Remember how the government uses inhumane happiness sucking demons as their prison guards? Remember how the school janitor was in favor of torturing the students? And like you said, the trust in the official powers that be was understandably fairly low. Everyone has infiltrated everyone else. So all of that and there are always some crazy people around.

And I'm not really sure Voldemort doesn't really matter all that much. He's just really evil and needs to be stopped. Where he came from and the politics of how he got followers is less interesting than the events happening in the story right now.
The fact that wizard society is, in a lot of ways, lagging behind muggle society, in some regards almost seems to be stuck in the middle ages, was actually always one of my favourite parts of the books. I think they gave away some potential by never really adressing it. Actually, one of the things that really rub me the wrong way about them is that they treated Hermiones campaign to liberate house elves as a joke much of the time. It's... very hard to seperate the books entirely from Rowlings public persona, a persona that never endeared itself much to me, but it's one of these matters where it seems to me that Rowling tried to score some good girl points by including a progressive cause but never fully understood how that cause relates to real life.

See, you say Voldemorts background and his ideology isn't as interesting as the immediate events of the plot but personally I think it is. And maybe that's just my viewpoint as an adult but I'm pretty sure by the time the last few books came out most of its readers were adults and people in the latter half of their teens. Voldemort in general could have used some character development.
 
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PsychedelicDiamond said:
The fact that wizard society is, in a lot of ways, lagging behind muggle society, in some regards almost seems to be stuck in the middle ages, was actually always one of my favourite parts of the books. I think they gave away some potential by never really adressing it. Actually, one of the things that really rub me the wrong way about them is that they treated Hermiones campaign to liberate house elves as a joke much of the time. It's... very hard to seperate the books entirely from Rowlings public persona, a persona that never endeared itself much to me, but it's one of these matters where it seems to me that Rowling tried to score some good girl points by including a progressive cause but never fully understood how that cause relates to real life.
See, personally I'd say that its Hermione's approach that is made the joke (trying the trick the elves by leaving them hats just insults them, for instance, demonstrating that she's not really listening to the people she's supposedly fighting for) rather than the cause itself where most people (on Harry's side at least) tend to recognise she's got a point. It's made abundantly clear that even before it slips under Voldemort's control the wizarding world is...really not great with other races. Hell, thats one of the reasons why he's able to infiltrate the Ministry as well as he does, there's already plenty of people already there who think like him just on a smaller scale. It even becomes part of the plot in a minor way; Harry treating Dobby with basic respect is what earns him brownie points from Griphook, who is astounded a wizard would treat a House Elf that well. I think its woven ina bit more than just Rowling going "whoops, sort of created a race of slaves, better address that later..."
 

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PsychedelicDiamond said:
Yes, I have seen OG Dragonball. Not in a long time, to be honest, but I have seen it and I remember some of it quite fondly, unlike Dragonball Z, which I think is really awful. Now, Dragon Ball established rather early that Goku was from an alien race that's physically superior to humans and that, when pitted against normal human enemies, Goku would probably wipe the floor with them, even before he trained with Muten Roshi. That was, of course, before Dragonball Z came along and turned a lighthearted story about a goofy kid travelling the world to recover magical wishgranting balls into endless, repetetive wankery about which alien superhero can wipe out more planets with their farts.
I wouldn't call the start of Dragon Ball Z 'early', because that was the first mention of Goku being an alien. Before that he was just a monkey boy in a world full of animal people.

Goku was stronger than most people because he loved challenging himself and always pushed to try his best to become stronger. There was some natural talent that played a part in it, but the biggest influence in his growth was that whenever he was faced with a new opponent or challenge he would dive into it with enthusiasm. And he was a martial artist. Martial artist trumps anything else in the world of Dragon Ball.
 

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Drathnoxis said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Yes, I have seen OG Dragonball. Not in a long time, to be honest, but I have seen it and I remember some of it quite fondly, unlike Dragonball Z, which I think is really awful. Now, Dragon Ball established rather early that Goku was from an alien race that's physically superior to humans and that, when pitted against normal human enemies, Goku would probably wipe the floor with them, even before he trained with Muten Roshi. That was, of course, before Dragonball Z came along and turned a lighthearted story about a goofy kid travelling the world to recover magical wishgranting balls into endless, repetetive wankery about which alien superhero can wipe out more planets with their farts.
I wouldn't call the start of Dragon Ball Z 'early', because that was the first mention of Goku being an alien. Before that he was just a monkey boy in a world full of animal people.
Funny how he retconned his own memories of Dragon Ball to include a piece of information only added to the mythos in Dragon Ball Z, which apparently is really awful.
 

PsychedelicDiamond

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bluegate said:
Drathnoxis said:
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Yes, I have seen OG Dragonball. Not in a long time, to be honest, but I have seen it and I remember some of it quite fondly, unlike Dragonball Z, which I think is really awful. Now, Dragon Ball established rather early that Goku was from an alien race that's physically superior to humans and that, when pitted against normal human enemies, Goku would probably wipe the floor with them, even before he trained with Muten Roshi. That was, of course, before Dragonball Z came along and turned a lighthearted story about a goofy kid travelling the world to recover magical wishgranting balls into endless, repetetive wankery about which alien superhero can wipe out more planets with their farts.
I wouldn't call the start of Dragon Ball Z 'early', because that was the first mention of Goku being an alien. Before that he was just a monkey boy in a world full of animal people.
Funny how he retconned his own memories of Dragon Ball to include a piece of information only added to the mythos in Dragon Ball Z, which apparently is really awful.
Gimme a break, it was a really long time ago that I saw either. I could have sworn Goku having been found in a space capsule was at some point mentioned in original Dragon Ball.
 

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Pseudonym said:
On this specifically. Have you seen dragon ball? If so, do you remember that time when Goku defeated the red ribbon army. All of them. In pretty much one fell swoop. Well, I took it that something like that was going on.
I remember DB. It wasn't uncommon that Goku faced an enemy that out-skilled him, then trained hard after the defeat (or searched for some McGuffin that made him stronger) and defeated his enemy in the rematch.
 

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bluegate said:
Drathnoxis said:
I wouldn't call the start of Dragon Ball Z 'early', because that was the first mention of Goku being an alien. Before that he was just a monkey boy in a world full of animal people.
Funny how he retconned his own memories of Dragon Ball to include a piece of information only added to the mythos in Dragon Ball Z, which apparently is really awful.
To be fair, DBZ is pretty awful for the most part.
PsychedelicDiamond said:
Gimme a break, it was a really long time ago that I saw either. I could have sworn Goku having been found in a space capsule was at some point mentioned in original Dragon Ball.
In Dragon Ball he was just found and adopted by Grandpa Gohan, it was retconned in the second episode of DBZ, and the corresponding manga chapter, to be in a spacepod.