Letting children die horribly seems to be the new 'hook'. (Now includes video, due to popular demand

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DracoSuave

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
DracoSuave said:
Regarding adults playing this: MIND YOUR OWN DAMN BUSINESS PLEASE AND THANK YOU. What adults do and enjoy in artistic media is NOT YOUR CONCERN MOVE ALONG.
One minor problem. There are also adults that have a deep concern about these things. I wouldn't play DI just from the trailer. I honestly don't care how good it is, but that trailer depressed me. (And I've seen I Spit On Your Grave and The Human Centipede)

Artistic media is fine - but an 18 cert. doesn't give you right to break all taboos. I REALLY don't want to turn on my TV and catch "that", please.

If you want to watch it, fine. But give me a chance not to.
At 18 cert, it's not going to 'pop' onto your TV, you're not going to 'accidentally' come upon it, and with digital cable and the way media is consumed nowadays anyways, if you're in a position where you come upon it, you have the same right everyone else does.

You can change the channel. And if it offends you, you should have the right to change the channel. Where your rights stop is when the artistic media in question does NOT harm society itself (and no, offense is not harm), at that point you do not have ANY moral authority to say that I cannot watch it.

Horror is meant to present horrifying images... and they WILL offend someone. But you have the choice to not watch it. Take that choice away from others, and you've enacted something even MORE horrifying... the censorship of a valid art form, just because you don't like the metaphor.
 

Rhinzual26

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Bloodstain said:
Rhinzual26 said:
"The death of children is relatively unexplored area."
"The reason some find it shocking today is that prior to this stuff, it was very rare for children to die."

I understand we agree?
Essentially yes, I just went into further detail about perspectives and humanization vs dehumanization, etc.
 

Rhinzual26

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WanderFreak said:
All this time spent bitching about how you can't kill kids in games, the developers are just releasing all that pent up anger.

It's like a kid who's just discovered whacking off.
I so did not need that mental image. Also Wasteland was more than happy to let you kill children, perhaps a bit too happy to let you kill them.
 

Kopikatsu

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Rhinzual26 said:
WanderFreak said:
All this time spent bitching about how you can't kill kids in games, the developers are just releasing all that pent up anger.

It's like a kid who's just discovered whacking off.
I so did not need that mental image. Also Wasteland was more than happy to let you kill children, perhaps a bit too happy to let you kill them.
Yeah...that mental image is undoubtedly more horrifying than anything they let you do to children in any video game. Actually, I think eviscerating them (Slowly) would be mercy compared to that.
 

Rhinzual26

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Kopikatsu said:
Rhinzual26 said:
WanderFreak said:
All this time spent bitching about how you can't kill kids in games, the developers are just releasing all that pent up anger.

It's like a kid who's just discovered whacking off.
I so did not need that mental image. Also Wasteland was more than happy to let you kill children, perhaps a bit too happy to let you kill them.
Yeah...that mental image is undoubtedly more horrifying than anything they let you do to children in any video game. Actually, I think eviscerating them (Slowly) would be mercy compared to that.
Man, it's games like that with such scenarios that actually make games like Dead Island and Dead Rising 2 not very horrifying. Seeing them die to monsters/turn into zombies isn't nearly as bad as the protagonist's party killing children for laughing at them, eventually killing everyone in that park and ending with a sad puppy crawling into the arms of a dead child.

I feel dirty just typing that out, gonna try to play some Robot Unicorn Attack to try and cheer myself up now.
 

Kopikatsu

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Rhinzual26 said:
Kopikatsu said:
Rhinzual26 said:
WanderFreak said:
All this time spent bitching about how you can't kill kids in games, the developers are just releasing all that pent up anger.

It's like a kid who's just discovered whacking off.
I so did not need that mental image. Also Wasteland was more than happy to let you kill children, perhaps a bit too happy to let you kill them.
Yeah...that mental image is undoubtedly more horrifying than anything they let you do to children in any video game. Actually, I think eviscerating them (Slowly) would be mercy compared to that.
Man, it's games like that with such scenarios that actually make games like Dead Island and Dead Rising 2 not very horrifying. Seeing them die to monsters/turn into zombies isn't nearly as bad as the protagonist's party killing children for laughing at them, eventually killing everyone in that park and ending with a sad puppy crawling into the arms of a dead child.

I feel dirty just typing that out, gonna try to play some Robot Unicorn Attack to try and cheer myself up now.
Wow. That makes me feel awful...for the puppy. ;-; I want to hug it and squeeze it and bring it home with me. What kind of puppy is it? Will it grow up to be an awesome companion that I can substitute for a wife?

Wait...I think that came out wrong. Let me start over...
 

geier

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And.......what do you wanna tell us ?
Do you think live is a godzilla movie from the 50's ?
Because 2 thinks where shure in a gozilla movie from this era:

At least one picture from the fujiyama and no children will be harmed.

God bless the 50's are over, because they where crap !
Let the children die like everyone else.
 
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DracoSuave said:
At 18 cert, it's not going to 'pop' onto your TV, you're not going to 'accidentally' come upon it, and with digital cable and the way media is consumed nowadays anyways, if you're in a position where you come upon it, you have the same right everyone else does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwtr_-4vz6g : Viewable easily with any age. Don't even have to sign in.
And if it offends you, you should have the right to change the channel. Where your rights stop is when the artistic media in question does NOT harm society itself (and no, offense is not harm), at that point you do not have ANY moral authority to say that I cannot watch it.
Ok. Two main points.
Offense is not harm is an opinion. Not a fact.
Now, I know you read my post, because you quoted it, so you'll remember the bit where I said
"If you want to watch it, fine."
Horror is meant to present horrifying images... and they WILL offend someone. But you have the choice to not watch it. Take that choice away from others, and you've enacted something even MORE horrifying... the censorship of a valid art form, just because you don't like the metaphor.
A metaphor? Please...
That's a child being torn up and then killed. Zombie or not. By her father.
That's no longer a metaphor.

Art needs to be censored. That's where art is derived from, the battle against censorship. You take away the right to censor and you've destroyed the main basis of art. It has to fight against societal constructs to become something. Look at Surrealism.

And it's not art when it's used to advertise. That's the same difference between erotica and pornography.

TL;DR: If you want Goatse on every channel you watch, go ahead. I'd like to watch a different channel and not have to be pushed off channels because someone wants to sell something.

Late night BBC3; fine. Prime time? Get the hell off the screen.
 

Mikeyfell

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Killing off children is like a marketing win-win situation
because some people, strangely enough, actually like children. So seeing them brutally murdered tugs at their heart strings and provides a heavy emotional experience.

while (awesome) people, like me, despise the little buggers so the thought of seeing them die in uniquely interesting ways gets us pumped and ready to spend money.

On the other hand playing a trailer backwards and at the same time not revealing ANYTHING about the gameplay is a very poor marketing choice
 

AstylahAthrys

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I'm going to leave this here:


I... don't like the killing children thing. I guess it's my maternal side of me. I can see a zombie child or a dead child and it will make me sad, but not disturbed, but seeing a child being mortally harmed just kills me on the inside.
 

Rhinzual26

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
DracoSuave said:
At 18 cert, it's not going to 'pop' onto your TV, you're not going to 'accidentally' come upon it, and with digital cable and the way media is consumed nowadays anyways, if you're in a position where you come upon it, you have the same right everyone else does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwtr_-4vz6g : Viewable easily with any age. Don't even have to sign in.
And if it offends you, you should have the right to change the channel. Where your rights stop is when the artistic media in question does NOT harm society itself (and no, offense is not harm), at that point you do not have ANY moral authority to say that I cannot watch it.
Ok. Two main points.
Offense is not harm is an opinion. Not a fact.
Now, I know you read my post, because you quoted it, so you'll remember the bit where I said
"If you want to watch it, fine."
Horror is meant to present horrifying images... and they WILL offend someone. But you have the choice to not watch it. Take that choice away from others, and you've enacted something even MORE horrifying... the censorship of a valid art form, just because you don't like the metaphor.
A metaphor? Please...
That's a child being torn up and then killed. Zombie or not. By her father.
That's no longer a metaphor.

Art needs to be censored. That's where art is derived from, the battle against censorship. You take away the right to censor and you've destroyed the main basis of art. It has to fight against societal constructs to become something. Look at Surrealism.

And it's not art when it's used to advertise. That's the same difference between erotica and pornography.

TL;DR: If you want Goatse on every channel you watch, go ahead. I'd like to watch a different channel and not have to be pushed off channels because someone wants to sell something.

Late night BBC3; fine. Prime time? Get the hell off the screen.
I never thought horror was supposed to offend or sicken through gore, I always viewed horror as something to genuinely scare the audience using a method that can be almost without gore or completely without gore.

Pisha from Bloodlines put it best, "Real terror is not the sight of death, it is the fear of death. What is the fear of death? Terror of the unknown." There's a bit more after that, but it's just her speaking of how she and your character are more alike than your character and a (very) recently deceased human are.
 

Kopikatsu

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AstylahAthrys said:
I'm going to leave this here:


I... don't like the killing children thing. I guess it's my maternal side of me. I can see a zombie child or a dead child and it will make me sad, but not disturbed, but seeing a child being mortally harmed just kills me on the inside.
It somewhat amused me that both of his arms are completely covered in tattoos, but he finds Dead Rising 2 too emotionally draining to play. (Not saying thats bad, just that its at odds with my stereotype of people who get such tattoos.)

Ah well. Maybe I'd feel differently if/when I have a daughter. (And son. Twins!) As for now...nah.

Edit:
Rhinzual26 said:
The_root_of_all_evil said:
DracoSuave said:
At 18 cert, it's not going to 'pop' onto your TV, you're not going to 'accidentally' come upon it, and with digital cable and the way media is consumed nowadays anyways, if you're in a position where you come upon it, you have the same right everyone else does.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bwtr_-4vz6g : Viewable easily with any age. Don't even have to sign in.
And if it offends you, you should have the right to change the channel. Where your rights stop is when the artistic media in question does NOT harm society itself (and no, offense is not harm), at that point you do not have ANY moral authority to say that I cannot watch it.
Ok. Two main points.
Offense is not harm is an opinion. Not a fact.
Now, I know you read my post, because you quoted it, so you'll remember the bit where I said
"If you want to watch it, fine."
Horror is meant to present horrifying images... and they WILL offend someone. But you have the choice to not watch it. Take that choice away from others, and you've enacted something even MORE horrifying... the censorship of a valid art form, just because you don't like the metaphor.
A metaphor? Please...
That's a child being torn up and then killed. Zombie or not. By her father.
That's no longer a metaphor.

Art needs to be censored. That's where art is derived from, the battle against censorship. You take away the right to censor and you've destroyed the main basis of art. It has to fight against societal constructs to become something. Look at Surrealism.

And it's not art when it's used to advertise. That's the same difference between erotica and pornography.

TL;DR: If you want Goatse on every channel you watch, go ahead. I'd like to watch a different channel and not have to be pushed off channels because someone wants to sell something.

Late night BBC3; fine. Prime time? Get the hell off the screen.
I never thought horror was supposed to offend or sicken through gore, I always viewed horror as something to genuinely scare the audience using a method that can be almost without gore or completely without gore.

Pisha from Bloodlines put it best, "Real terror is not the sight of death, it is the fear of death. What is the fear of death? Terror of the unknown." There's a bit more after that, but it's just her speaking of how she and your character are more alike than your character and a (very) recently deceased human are.
I would agree with that. You just have to play through a 'horror' game that focuses on gore and body horror (The only series that comes to mind at the moment is Dead Space) to realize that gratuitous violence isn't scary. How the bodies are mangled and mutilated might make you cringe (The movie, 'The Collector' was a 'horror' movie that I had an extremely difficult time sitting through. Fingernails got pulled off, the main character had a bunch of fishhooks dug into his spine, and he had to tear them all out by pulling himself off the post and his skin stretched and tore and...yeah, anyway.

I think it was Alfred Hitchcock who said "The scariest thing you can put up on the silver screen is a closed door. If the door opens and a seven foot monster is revealed, then the audience will subconsciously think 'At least it wasn't fifteen feet!' I think that is veeeeery true.
 

CharrHearted

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Now on fox news! Playing or watching Dead Island will make you a Paedophile serial Killer.

Just an assumption on what's going to happen, damn fox news can die X_X
 

Jumplion

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I will say, that was a helluvah trailer, shook me up at the very least

I guess I can see why some people would object to this trailer, though I'm not a parents. Child death is a touchy subject, though numerous other mediums touch on that subject, both with humor and seriousness, so I don't see why a game shouldn't be able to touch on it (if that is what this game is going for). Another argument is that it's on prime TV or something (though I haven't read the whole 9+ page thread), which could be considered an understandable gripe.

But with little to no real information on the game itself, I can't really say that I will "never" play this game, or even that I will. It certainly has piqued my interest, and I'll key an eye on it for now.
 

newfoundsky

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joebear15 said:
newfoundsky said:
joebear15 said:
Justin Tarrant said:
Continuity said:
its obvious isn't it? lots of kids play games, how to draw the kids into the story: include a kid in it, so they can identify.
And have nightmares.
theirs scarier shit going on the the real world then in most video games
I defy you to show me a single instance were one is mauled by a death claw.
i will take your death claw mauling and raise you one getting hit by stray napalm having a part of your skin and putting you in agonizing pain as you either die slowly of infection or die of cancer later in life or if your lucky your maimed forever.
Nepalm was used in video games, your argument, im sorry to say, is flawed. And I REALLY want to agree with you.
 

squid5580

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If it is in context like the trailer (which is fucking awesome and I want to see it played normally) there is nothing wrong with it. It isn't a hook. They aren't using killing children just because killing chldren is edgy or the new video game fad. They are using it to tell part of the story. To draw an emotional response from us. And to keep it real. We whine and ***** that we want realism well this is what realism looks like. Zombies don't care if you are 5 or 50 they just care if you got tasty brains for snacking on. And it is about time people started shying away from this oh kids are sacred BS. it is ok for an 18 yr old to become zombie food but not a 10 yr old?? I don't think so.

And for the record I have a 2 yr old daughter myself. And this game has gone on my must by list (to be played when she is not around).
 

GotMalkAvian

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Harming children is one of society's biggest taboos, and children are one of the strongest emotional hooks that a piece of media can use to grab someone's attention. Killing children is something that even the film industry has shied away from until rather recently (seriously, how many movies can you think of that feature a graphic on-screen depiction of a child's death?), and it seems that games are following suit.

Personall, I think that using children to heighten horror or tension is cheap and basically emotional blackmail. Take, for example, the movie Paranormal Activity 2: The first movie managed to be scary as hell with just a young couple at the center of the action, but for the sequel the creators felt a need to up the ante, and so an infant was added to the list of tormented people in the second movie. It seems that sometimes children are used as a shortcut to horror the same way that cheap startles are used as a replacement for atmosphere and genuine tension.
 

DracoSuave

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The_root_of_all_evil said:
A metaphor? Please...
That's a child being torn up and then killed. Zombie or not. By her father.
That's no longer a metaphor.
Horror is most often a metaphor.

I decided to sit down and watch the trailer, because it's not cool to defend something as art which I have not yet actually experienced.

So let's go through what happens. It's sort of done similiar to Momento. You have one sequence of events going backwards, and another series of events going forwards, both simultaneously, until they meet up at the same event.

The scene going backwards starts with a child on the pavement, which as it turns out, has fallen out of a window, because someone she was biting has tossed her off him. She had lept off the bed, when she was placed there by the man (let's assume he's her father) who had pulled her from a hallway filled with zombies... all the while he's fighting them off heroicly.

Going forward, it's that girl running from those same zombies, who then catch her, claw at her a bit, but she is saved (as it turns out too late) by her father.

I could not walk away from that trailer and not be emotionally affected. There's a sense of futility, of fighting an endless mindless machine, that will grab you and make you a part of it, whether you fight it or not. That's standard zombie fare.

What stuck with me tho, was that girl running for her life, to be saved by her father, who is making a heroic, desperate stance to save her and his wife from these mindless animals... but it is for nothing, and she has become like them. And he has to make the decision... one that will haunt him should he survive this. He has to do something inhumane to survive.

Yes, it's an advertisement. And advertisements carry messages to encourage the purchase of the game. This advertisement was... different. It was designed not to sell the game based on being hardcore... but it carries a subtle promise. This is not just 'fighting zombies.' The advertisement is tapping into primal emotions... fear. Not fear of zombies, not fear of death, not fear of the unsightly.

Fear of those you love turning on you. Fear of love being lost at the whim of fate. The fear of innocence turned into hatred and destruction. That unfair hand of god coming down and saying that all the pillars you hold dear, all the things you take for granted can be taken away and turned on you... and that you will be forced to do horrible things to those you love because of it... or cease to exist.

It challenges us and it forces us to face some very deep questions about ourselves. Would you do the same as he? Could you throw your daughter out the window if she was turned into an unstoppable mindless killing machine? If you could... would this linger with you? Could you put that aside to survive, or would you give up and die with her? His wife is also there... that complicates things too. Now he has to choose between the undead likeness of his daughter, and his wife who is very much alive.

How does a father face himself after that? Not only did he toss his daughter out a window, he failed to protect the one person in the world it is his duty to protect above all others. Not because society tells you, but because it's part of what defines a father.

Now, I can't and won't assume anyone else came away from it with these questions, or even looked at it in that amount of depth... nor do I believe people should. But I have... and I believe many of that emotional response is intentional on some level.

I cannot walk away from any media... commercial or otherwise... and ask questions of such importance, of such gravitas... questions that in answering, reveal my soul to myself... and NOT come to the conclusion that it is art. Is it shocking? Yes. Is it horrifying? Yes.

And it is that horror that -makes- it art... this commercial's an artistic expression of one of life's greatest tragedies: Losing a child. Presented in a raw... visceral way. There's no euphemism. And... I am convinced that the message would not be the same if it were an adult. If it were some woman and he were protecting a child... we might not make the husband/wife connection. But in this we automatically do... and that meaning is immediately understood and internalized. Even if she isn't his daughter, we grasp that he is protecting her, that he has taken on, for that moment in time, the paternal duties of protecting a child against violence.

For the message to work, it had to be a child.

It worked. I am horrified. And it is art. And I will defend it.
 

Kopikatsu

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newfoundsky said:
joebear15 said:
newfoundsky said:
joebear15 said:
Justin Tarrant said:
Continuity said:
its obvious isn't it? lots of kids play games, how to draw the kids into the story: include a kid in it, so they can identify.
And have nightmares.
theirs scarier shit going on the the real world then in most video games
I defy you to show me a single instance were one is mauled by a death claw.
i will take your death claw mauling and raise you one getting hit by stray napalm having a part of your skin and putting you in agonizing pain as you either die slowly of infection or die of cancer later in life or if your lucky your maimed forever.
Nepalm was used in video games, your argument, im sorry to say, is flawed. And I REALLY want to agree with you.
Yeeaaaaaah. Napalm is really...bad. Then again, I would say that the real world has mustard gas, flesh eating bacteria, and all other sorts of fun things...but I'm fairly certain that somewhere, someone stuck those into a game. Then made it worse