Leveling Up - Is it an outdated mechanic?

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The Funslinger

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Nothing in gaming becomes outdated.

Hell, the indie scene proves even older graphics aren't outdated. Everything in gaming is a tool that has a different level of suitability to every game.
 

excalipoor

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CloudAtlas said:
I knew I remembered something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI&list=UUUzj5q3v-6umt_NOCR709Ng&index=31

A well-reasoned opinion on the issue.
Horizontal scaling certainly solves many of the issues with power creep, but I don't think that's really what people want. Players want to see their characters grow, not just in relation to the plot, but in performance as well (even if it just means bigger numbers).

The way I see it, any decent character progression system should include both linear components (e.g. levels, a constant reminder that your character is getting more powerful), and nonlinear components (gear, perks, things that aren't necessarily dependent on the player's level, and require some sort of choice). Endgame in an MMO usually means the end of linear progression, but not nonlinear.

The problem with MMOs is that most of them focus on linear progression as the primary source of power, while nonlinear progression is reduced to adding bells and whistles to your character. I don't much like Guild Wars, but I think they had a great idea in minimizing the power creep, and instead focused on creating optimal character builds. Even gear is as much of an aesthetic choice as it is mechanical. Change the focus, and you kill the power creep.

I think more than the concept of leveling, the problem with MMOs is the concept of endgame, as in most MMOs the two are completely different animals. The distinction is jarring to say the least. Players want to get to the endgame, because that's what everyone else is doing, which instantly diminishes their enjoyment of the journey there. I think a PvE-oriented MMO should be about constant progress (and not in the way of getting better gear at level cap), not getting "there" to play with the big boys and kill the big bosses.

How to do this? Well, characters could have some degree of dynamic scaling in regards to the content they're currently on. Keep the curve low, and the content feels meaningful without making the player feel like their toys are taken away. Guild Wars 2 tried to do this, but at the same time they added the massive power creep that was missing in GW1, and in my eyes the result is a failure. It doesn't feel dynamic, it just feels like you're stripped of your power.

You could also use nonlinear progression as a constant, and use content-specific linear progression. As in, the power creep is only relevant within the content you're currently doing, but you still gain the benefits of the broader arsenal of abilities and such available to you. Maybe your character is traveling through different planes, and your linear progression in each is independent from the others?

Then there's the question of how to balance it all. WoW is limited by the fact that it tries to balance both PvE and PvP using the same rules, but is "balance" really the end-all-be-all of MMO design? For competitive PvP the answer is obviously yes (incidentally, the model for horizontal scaling presented above would still require some pretty strict guidelines to prevent broken builds), but what about PvE?

Personally I would take some freedoms there in favor of immersion and keeping content relevant. As long as nobody's performance is falling massively behind everyone else's because of mechanics, balance in PvE isn't that big a deal. You know, in my opinion.
 

CloudAtlas

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excalipoor said:
CloudAtlas said:
I knew I remembered something...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Zn81sY7pqI&list=UUUzj5q3v-6umt_NOCR709Ng&index=31

A well-reasoned opinion on the issue.
Horizontal scaling certainly solves many of the issues with power creep, but I don't think that's really what people want. Players want to see their characters grow, not just in relation to the plot, but in performance as well (even if it just means bigger numbers).
(...)
You could be totally right here. In fact, I believe you might be. But do we really know? Has a "big" MMORPG ever tried it?
At least it works in other genres. Even the way progression works in many modern shooters is quite close to horizontal scaling actually.
 

Olas

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levelling up gives you a nice reward for playing and doing well, it gives you something to look forward to. That being said I feel like it can be done without making things unbalanced. Just make it about more specialization and not necessarily more power.
 

excalipoor

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CloudAtlas said:
You could be totally right here. In fact, I believe you might be. But do we really know? Has a "big" MMORPG ever tried it?
At least it works in other genres. Even the way progression works in many modern shooters is quite close to horizontal scaling actually.
As I understand it, Bungie's upcoming Destiny, while maybe not a full-blown MMO, is still heavily dependent on playing with others in a persistent world. I think it's safe say we'll be seeing some kind of horizontal scaling in it, even to a greater degree than, say, Call of Duty.

But in an MMORPG, I think steady progression is essential, yes. The whole concept of horizontal progression seems very competition-oriented, and as such works better for certain genres. That this has been happening in other genres is the result of developers trying to add RPG elements to them, because they work to hook the player. I doubt many developers (or publishers, rather) would get too excited about removing mechanics that have been proven to keep the moneyflow going.
 

zefiris

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Leveling is not outdated. It's a proven formula that gets gullible gamers to pay and play forever, because gullible gamers get a sense of success from that "+1 stat" that they do not get in their day to day lives. Without leveling, most MMOs would be FAILURES. It's literally the best way to get people hooked. You can then either let them level forever, increasingly slowly, or cap it and let them level on a different mechanic - like raiding in WOW. Generally the same idea behind it, though.

Progression is what most MMO players want. Those that don't quit MMO-RPGs already. Removing them would kill these games.



Not that I like it. I dislike the mechanic and the whole "lol the true game starts at max level". That's also a terrible design choice.

These games only work because there are enough people that crave validation from a game.
 

Zenn3k

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MMO's survive on the players playing a lot over a long period of time.

Having 90 levels for example, helps insure that a certain "required" investment of time into the game.

People who DO invest the time to do all 90 levels are more likely to stick around then say, someone who only goes up to level 20, even if it takes just as long to hit 20 as it did to hit 90, 90 FEELS like a bigger accomplishment, and therefore leads to higher player retention.

Basically, if the level "cap" was super low, it would cause a lot of people to not stick with the game for as long, because it didn't require a lot of time to get there in the first place.
 
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Levelling up does have a purpose. More than one in fact. First, it allows the developer to (try and) tell a story. By tying the player's progress to a story arc there is a feeling of being part of a bigger world and/or events. Second, there is the opportunity to practise and make use of the different abilities granted. By introducing these over time, rather than all at once, the player can learn how to best use them (for example in combinations, mana useage, cooldown times, etc).

Following on from the last point, there is also finding a niche. In a game where a class has multiple "paths" or trees, players have the opportunity to find their preferred niche. Third/Fourth, it gives the developer the chance to show off their world. Five, it's an extra time sink. Six, it's a carrot...progress of any sort is a motivating factor in playing for more time. WoW has so many ways to "progress", be it gold, tokens/medals, crafting materials, experience or loot. Add to that flashing lights and tinkling sounds and you have the makings of an addictive system.

Levelling also attaches a player to their avatar. The time invested, skill-up choices made, gear progression, fun had and role within a group all add to the experience. It's also a way of keeping "score", dividing the player base up for PvP and PvE dungeons for example, setting the hardcore apart from the casual, give something to aim for, etc.

There are a lot of reasons for why levelling works in MMOs and RPGs and as it's tried, tested and proven to work, I don't see it going anywhere. Even games that claim to be "level-less" really do have them in one form or another. There are many issues with it, it has drawbacks, but what system doesn't?
 

CloudAtlas

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excalipoor said:
(...) But in an MMORPG, I think steady progression is essential, yes. The whole concept of horizontal progression seems very competition-oriented, and as such works better for certain genres. That this has been happening in other genres is the result of developers trying to add RPG elements to them, because they work to hook the player. I doubt many developers (or publishers, rather) would get too excited about removing mechanics that have been proven to keep the moneyflow going.
Perhaps. But achievements, titles, ranks, and optical (or mostly) rewards can be quite motivating too, and I'm sure that's not all that creative developers could come up with. And they can do that way beyond the inevitable level cap.

My biggest gripe with horizontal scaling is not so much about competitiveness though. I think the biggest issue is about people who want to play together, but can't do so in a way that is meaningful for both because their levels are too different. You can scale one player down or the other one up, but that just doesn't feel like an ideal solution to me. The only way I can see that working without such mechanics, and without forcing the weaker player into some sort of decidedly support-ish role is to make progression relatively subtle. If the "power difference" is, say, 20-30%, you can still play together just fine. If every single progression mechanic works against you, such as in WoW, well, good luck then.

Every MMO with a progression system needs to find a satisfying way to enable players with different amounts of time to play together in a meaningful way. If that is not possible, it's a big design flaw, and does put many players off.
 

babinro

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Not for me.
I tend to prefer leveling systems over the organic ones found in a FPS for example.

Mechanics that are outdated IMO?
- Picking up health potions/packs that instantly heal (yes, I'm one of the few that approve of regenerating health)
- stat allocation (when it leads to beginners traps)*
- Skill trees (when it leads to beginners traps)*
- Questing: Looking at you Elder Scrolls/Fallout/MMO's. Games shouldn't be about 10 minutes of travel for 10 minutes of fun. There is nothing fun about backtracking to a quest giver for a reward or plowing through dozens of generic enemies just to get to the new area. Good movies don't show you a person turning off the vehicle, taking off the seat belt, opening the door, getting out, closing the door, walking to their home, unlocking that door and entering. They skip over those implied seconds of tedium to keep things moving.

* If you have to restart your character because your system didn't properly educate the player that mana is worthless for class X or such and such a skill won't be competitive later on than your system has failed. Good stat allocation and skill tree's exist when players don't feel they have to copy online builds to be successful.
 

Korica

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babinro said:
Mechanics that are outdated IMO?
- stat allocation (when it leads to beginners traps)*
- Skill trees (when it leads to beginners traps)*

* If you have to restart your character because your system didn't properly educate the player that mana is worthless for class X or such and such a skill won't be competitive later on than your system has failed. Good stat allocation and skill tree's exist when players don't feel they have to copy online builds to be successful.
I feel like this is not a bad mechanic, it is just often poorly designed. You would think by now that Developers would understand gamers tend to enjoy crunching the numbers to find the best possible option, and build their system accordingly.

When it comes to customization, the Golden Rule should be "There is no wrong choice, no one thing is better than another."

Though to be fair, creating something that balanced is challenging.

CloudAtlas said:
My biggest gripe with horizontal scaling is not so much about competitiveness though. I think the biggest issue is about people who want to play together, but can't do so in a way that is meaningful for both because their levels are too different. You can scale one player down or the other one up, but that just doesn't feel like an ideal solution to me. The only way I can see that working without such mechanics, and without forcing the weaker player into some sort of decidedly support-ish role is to make progression relatively subtle. If the "power difference" is, say, 20-30%, you can still play together just fine. If every single progression mechanic works against you, such as in WoW, well, good luck then.

Every MMO with a progression system needs to find a satisfying way to enable players with different amounts of time to play together in a meaningful way. If that is not possible, it's a big design flaw, and does put many players off.
Well said.
 

gamernerdtg2

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BrotherRool said:
I think it's all part of the fact modern MMOs are a complete mess because they've all tried to take core designs from one big MMO, innovate in 1 or 2 areas, instead of starting from the game up.
Yes this. If we're talking about MMO's I can understand why you might be sick of leveling up, becuase the combat isn't usually all that great. I wish Nexon wasn't so terrible becaus Vindictus looks amazing, and I really hope that's the direction for MMO's and combat in the future!

As to leveling up - I like the idea b/c a lot of folks won't really use all that is available to them if all the skills/abillities were on from the beginning of the game. It's kinda like all the combo trees in Virtua Fighter or Soul Calibur. You have all these moves for you to use, but you have to learn the game to use them... I suppose that's the alternative to leveling up - learn your character's move sets/magic/etc, but it should all be available from the beginning. That means some pretty hefty challenges from enemies right away, and I think people wouldn't be into it, judging from the historic reception of Ninja Gaiden and the complaints about the difficulty. MMO's are a different story, but I bring up fighting games to say that perhaps your idea has been put in use.
 

BrotherRool

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For levelling up in general, I like the story feeling it's used for in RPGs. They're always built around the idea that the game is some sort of huge learning experience for the protagonist and you get to reach a point of the game where you can look back and see how far your journey has come because at the start you were hitting 10's and now you're hitting 9999's

You get RPGs that forget about the emotional impact of a levelling system (it works against the story in ME1 because you're meant to be badass from the beginning) and particularly the idea of auto-levelling enemies with the character.

It's so silly that their are games that do that. If you're going to auto level enemies you might as well have the player pick extra abilities every X xp, because there's no point of any sort of numerical progression if you scale the world up too. That's a big example of a game designer being so used to doing something that they completely forgot why they did it in the first place
 

excalipoor

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CloudAtlas said:
I think the biggest issue is about people who want to play together, but can't do so in a way that is meaningful for both because their levels are too different. You can scale one player down or the other one up, but that just doesn't feel like an ideal solution to me. The only way I can see that working without such mechanics, and without forcing the weaker player into some sort of decidedly support-ish role is to make progression relatively subtle. If the "power difference" is, say, 20-30%, you can still play together just fine. If every single progression mechanic works against you, such as in WoW, well, good luck then.
Well, yes, that's what I was getting at by suggesting a switch in focus between linear and nonlinear progression, and putting less emphasis on "endgame". I guess my post is a bit of a garbled mess.
 

gamernerdtg2

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BrotherRool said:
For levelling up in general, I like the story feeling it's used for in RPGs. They're always built around the idea that the game is some sort of huge learning experience for the protagonist and you get to reach a point of the game where you can look back and see how far your journey has come because at the start you were hitting 10's and now you're hitting 9999's

You get RPGs that forget about the emotional impact of a levelling system (it works against the story in ME1 because you're meant to be badass from the beginning) and particularly the idea of auto-levelling enemies with the character.

It's so silly that their are games that do that. If you're going to auto level enemies you might as well have the player pick extra abilities every X xp, because there's no point of any sort of numerical progression if you scale the world up too. That's a big example of a game designer being so used to doing something that they completely forgot why they did it in the first place
Well, supposedly there was some kind of glitch in one of the games before Skyrim where your enemies didn't level up until you did - so you could potentially play the entire game on level one...but then again, I haven't experienced this first hand. It's just something I read on another forum.

The main thing is what you said about game designers dropping the ball - there should be no excuse in 2013 for what you've described in your above quote. I like skill progression rather than numerical progression. Numerical progression has to be done right - it works better in games where there are fixed sections within an open world that have higher level enemies. So I can't take my level 5 party into a dungeon that requires them to be at level 16 or higher. I have access to that level 16 dungeon, but it'd be suicide for me unless I have considerable skill.

In Dragon's Dogma you can choose to stray off path for example, and run into an enemy that your party isn't ready for. But in that game, I get the impression that you could beat an enemy who is 5 or 6 levels ahead of your party b/c it's more combat/reflex oriented. It'd be difficult, but I'll bet people who've spent some time with that game could pull it off.
 

NightmareExpress

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Outdated? No, I'm fairly certain that it's a timeless mechanic all around.
Necessary, one could definitely argue. It seems to be mostly shoe-horned in for most games to entice the player to continue their multiplayer "career" through a false sense of progression.

How active would certain games be if you took away the numbers that popped up and the levels, for example?
 

Kilo24

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I'd say much the opposite; if anything, leveling up has been refined significantly and is a staple of modern gaming. It's escaped from RPGs to become the basis for a hell of a lot of social games, COD multiplayer, and everywhere else that RPG mechanics have crept in. It's been perfected into an excellent carrot to keep players playing, and, even at its worst, it's rarely handled more terribly than in the games which pioneered it. I definitely wouldn't call it "outdated."

I suppose the question the OP was asking was more of "should it be in modern games?" The answer from a developer making a microtransaction-laden Skinner box is "absolutely." The answer from someone who is interested in making a fun game is much harder to define. At their worst, leveling systems add in loads of grinding and arbitrary scaling of tasks; they "change" the game by making the numbers bigger but not affecting how the game plays at all. At their best, leveling systems add a mechanical sense of progression to the character, change the gameplay to become deeper, and make the player feel invested in his developing character. Which extreme it favors is dependent on the game, on the precise leveling mechanics implemented, and on the players' preferences themselves.

To speak about designing leveling systems from experience: there's a tactics game with pen-and-paper rules I've been developing for the past few years that I'm also coding into a computer game, and one of the many major decisions I made in development it was to add levels into the game. The major reason that I left them out in the first place was that I didn't want the game to turn into stacks of arbitrarily scaling numbers fighting against each-other as is typical in the majority of RPGs. However, as the game developed, I found that, without a convenient system to describe how powerful a given character was, I had to make arbitrary statements on how many advantages a character could have, how much they could spend on attributes, and what the caps on those attributes were. As it stood then, I couldn't make those arbitrary statements allow for a wide enough variety of characters that I was happy with, and so I would have had to let those arbitrary be modifiable via cumbersome house rules. It was a horribly clunky system.

So, I ditched it when I changed everything in the basic one-off skirmish game to a point-buy system. Now, level is an attribute of characters that controls how expensive a character is, his number of advantages, attribute points, and caps on attributes. It's much cleaner and more efficient than the original. Additionally, with the way that the point cost scales due to level and a host of other gameplay mechanics, it should be prohibitively expensive if not impossible to create a single "superman" character who is too high level for low-level characters to do anything meaningful against. It's also very easy to extend into a leveling system for more active character advancement in the single player campaign I'll be implementing much further down the line, and it also will be useful when I'm delving into randomly generated characters for that campaign.

This demonstrated to me that level is a very useful measure of character power even if you're not trying for a effective range during the whole game of more than, say, 5 levels or so, or not trying for going from 5 health to 5000 health at max level.

Ahri said:
I seriously think more MMOs need to incorporate an Elder Scrolls type leveling system, where your abilities improve as you use them. It gives you an incentive to experiment with different abilities, and also helps you to tailor your character to what you want it to be. The trouble with giving players a set number of abilities and very little variation between them is that everyone ultimately ends up the same, and you feel as though the choices you make are worthless.
I strongly dislike the Elder Scrolls leveling system. It directly rewards you for repeating the same action over and over again until you hit 100 in the skill, which is tedious and is thinly related to working towards interesting character goals. The basic (and good) idea behind it is that characters are rewarded based on their actions, but it also means that if you've got 20 different skills you've also got 20 different ways of leveling them. That means that instead of the developers focusing just on making combat interesting and fun, you've also got to make sure that those 20 different skill progression schemes are also interesting and fun. The Elder Scrolls does a pretty poor job of that; it rewards you for standing in front of an enemy healing yourself, for attacking with the worst weapon you can find to get more hits in, for continually casting buffs on yourself, and for smithing the same iron dagger over and over again. They have been doing better with each subsequent game, but it's still a deeply flawed system.

That's not taking into account the abysmal level-based enemy scaling they use, either.

I could see a hybrid system working much better - one which, say, after each goal accomplished and/or creature kill awards experience based on the event's significance to the three skills you used the most - so that you wouldn't be rewarded for sneaking into a shopkeeper's wall for three hours. But even so, unless it was very carefully designed it would still reward gaming the system over just playing the game. Tying character advancement purely to the player's choice and not his actions certainly has its flaws, but it also means that, not only is it a hell of a lot easier on the designer, players will choose the options that interest them most and hence they'll find character advancement to be much more motivating.
 

Zeldias

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I don't exactly dislike leveling, but I do dislike stratification. I like GW2 because I feel like I can always play with a friend, so if my pal races to level 80 and I'm still messing around at a lower level, he can still come play with me. Same for in Monster Hunter; if my pal is G Rank and I'm just getting around to wanting to fight the Quropeco, he can just equip some weaker stuff to not make it a snooze-worthy faceroll and fight with me. Much more interesting than "Can't, I'm 10 levels too high; I'll trivialize the fight."

The only thing that really interests me in leveling up is learning abilities and creating a specialized character. I wouldn't really care if my character were personally at the same strength forever a la Monster Hunter if I could just spend my time getting stronger by learning and exploiting new abilities. I'd like to see an MMO that I guess is more of a kind of beat-em-up RPG in spirit, like a Guardian Heroes kind of thing or something, where leveling would mean some minor stat manipulation and learning new abilities and stuff; let the challenge be in the play against baddies and other players moreso than builds and rotations (I know those will always be around, but still).

All that said, leveling up does provide a good hook to keep players playing. I just want a better leveling system than what we've got now. Or something really cool like Anarchy Online.
 

Elijin

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I acknowledge Im probably the minority here, but without the leveling system, the games would be pointless to me.

Im not a big fan of PvP or the end game content. But I do love exploring all the areas, discovering the neat little easter eggs, getting all the achievements, doing the side activities and socializing all the while.

Its the world and the interaction with it and other players which makes the game for me, and lots of these ideas(not all) strip out the reasons I play.

Saw someone else mention a level system with much less scaling, and also that GW2 keeps your power in line with the enemies. The best way I've seen this done is Rift. It has the 'mentor' system, where you can manually set yourself to a lower level than you currently are. You keep your gear, but your stats and level shift appropriately. This way you can have challenge in lower areas, or help/play with your friends who are newer at the game. But at the same time, if you decide you just want to do something real quick or collect something, a click of a button and you're back to your real level. the challenge is there for you, but not forced on you.

I have many good things to say about Rift >.>
 

Korica

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Elijin said:
I acknowledge Im probably the minority here, but without the leveling system, the games would be pointless to me.

Im not a big fan of PvP or the end game content. But I do love exploring all the areas, discovering the neat little easter eggs, getting all the achievements, doing the side activities and socializing all the while.

Its the world and the interaction with it and other players which makes the game for me, and lots of these ideas(not all) strip out the reasons I play.
That seems like a somewhat contradictory statement. You say you play for interaction and exploration, but you also say the game would be pointless without leveling? Leveling is not required for those activities.

If you do still want to see your character grow, a "horizontal" progression system might still suit you. Unfortunately we cannot really test this, since there are no MMOs - at least none I know of - that use a horizontal progression system.