LGBT in children's cartoons: Who did it better?

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Imp_Emissary

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inu-kun said:
It seems to me people would rather blame Nickolodeon than accept that LOK had shit writing "Oh they couldn't do THAT, Nick would have detonated their exploding collars".
Eh, maybe. <.<

Nick wasn't exactly treating LOK very well long before they wanted to have Korra with Asami. Heck, they even got a surprise budget cut near the end of the last season. I doubt they would have been gun ho to let them actually go all into the relationship (ex: show them kiss, confess romantic love, ect)

That said, I'd say the idea is that fans do accept (or in some cases complain/argue) that the LOK writing was shit (in places), but do give credit to Nick for that happening.

OT: That all said, got to give it to Steven universe. Not only have they been more upfront with the LGBT relationships in the show, but they also got the representations of other "non-traditional" (Non-traditional as in not often shown on family cartoons) relationships.

Like Stevens dad and the Mayor being Single parents, Onion having a older half-brother (Sour Cream)https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/44/30/be/4430be892544708b700d4bb0f06e2a86.jpg
And as an other person had mentioned, there are the relationships that were romantic but ended/changed (Pearl and Rose, Amethyst and Greg).

All done pretty subtly too, without trying to avoid actually discussing it.

That said, the more the merrier.
For another good example, lets through in Jeff's Moms from Clarence.

 

Areloch

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Ishal said:
Areloch said:
You do realize that's how the creative process has ALWAYS worked, right?

There are many a tale of authors starting a story, writing characters a certain way, and then they let them evolve as it goes, and then realize they like the character too much to keep them in the original role.
Yes... but you do realize that only works if their new vision for the characters A) fits what's already been presented and established in the story at that point and B) the creators are in a position to execute on it in a satisfactory manner.

Such a case did not happen with Korra, sorry to say :/
Well, as much as I liked parts of Korra, I also think that point B was a persistent failure for the creative team, not just in regards to the KorrAsami paring.

That, and I think A isn't as critical so long as you can fufill B, but without B, yes, it's asking for problems.
 

Ishal

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Areloch said:
Ishal said:
Areloch said:
You do realize that's how the creative process has ALWAYS worked, right?

There are many a tale of authors starting a story, writing characters a certain way, and then they let them evolve as it goes, and then realize they like the character too much to keep them in the original role.
Yes... but you do realize that only works if their new vision for the characters A) fits what's already been presented and established in the story at that point and B) the creators are in a position to execute on it in a satisfactory manner.

Such a case did not happen with Korra, sorry to say :/
Well, as much as I liked parts of Korra, I also think that point B was a persistent failure for the creative team, not just in regards to the KorrAsami paring.

That, and I think A isn't as critical so long as you can fufill B, but without B, yes, it's asking for problems.
Yeah, they had too many other problems that eclipse the Korrasami thing. I think they just bit off more than they could chew too much.

The problem was that Korra's character arc was fucked and kept getting reset because they kept not knowing if they'd get more episodes. (I will give them slack here.)

Korra judged how good a person was by how much they kissed her ass, and tended to have a might makes right philosophy. This is called attention to a few times, but she never actually learns the lesson.

The show also kept dropping plot points, which made Korra look incompetent because it came off like SHE was forgetting plot points. The end of book one highlights this the worst, with all the stuff about how nonbenders were legitimately a lower class completely forgotten, turning Korra into a champion of the establishment.

I've never seen SU aside from a few beginning episodes. I hear it gets more connected and involved later on. Once the whole thing is close to finished, or at least has progressed more, I might see if it grabs me.
 

Nazrel

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Eclipse Dragon said:
Pyramid Head said:
That said... one more detail...
Aren't the Crystal Gems like the Asari? Aren't they ALL female? Does it even count as a lesbian relationship when it's how the species always behaved and the exception was a relationship with a human?
*as I understand it*

They are non-binary, present female and accept female pronouns.
Basically, they came to Earth, people called them female and they rolled with it.

What gems look like to each other is a different story, but they apparently seem to identify by gem type "A pearl" as in there is more than one pearl and less emphasis on individuality. There was an episode with a homeworld gem who mistook Steven for his mother, because presumably they identify each other by looking at the gem type rather than by looking at the face or body.

As for how gems reproduce, the show hasn't gone into detail on that yet though they are (as seen with Steven) able to change their biology enough to produce offspring with humans (they have shape-shifting abilities to an extent), though that is shown as being almost unheard of in gem society.

Hey it's a fun show to over analyze okay
Gems reproduce non-sexually via machines that create them out of a planet by sucking the life out of it. See Ep 40 "On The Run" and Ep 60 "Keeping It Together".


It regards to Korra, they did set the relationship up; but kept it ambiguous until the last 5 minutes of the series. There where lots of moments that could have interpreted multiple ways; schrodinger's relationship was probably the best description I've seen used.

They could have done it better, and I think they needed more Asami in season 4; but I still think it was done better then most relationships on TV (especially Korra and Mako.)
 

Eclipse Dragon

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Nazrel said:
Gems reproduce non-sexually via machines that create them out of a planet by sucking the life out of it. See Ep 40 "On The Run" and Ep 60 "Keeping It Together".
You're talking about the kindergarten yeah? But we don't know if all gems are produced this way. The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst implies her birth is not traditional.
 

Nazrel

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Eclipse Dragon said:
Nazrel said:
Gems reproduce non-sexually via machines that create them out of a planet by sucking the life out of it. See Ep 40 "On The Run" and Ep 60 "Keeping It Together".
You're talking about the kindergarten yeah? But we don't know if all gems are produced this way. The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst implies her birth is not traditional.
There is nothing to suggest all gems aren't.

The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst just suggested that Amethyst was a byproduct of a parasitic process that would have wiped out all live of earth; where as the home world likely has no "traditional" life forms, or they died off long ago, therefore the destruction of life would not have factored into the creation of home world born gems.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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Nazrel said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
Nazrel said:
Gems reproduce non-sexually via machines that create them out of a planet by sucking the life out of it. See Ep 40 "On The Run" and Ep 60 "Keeping It Together".
You're talking about the kindergarten yeah? But we don't know if all gems are produced this way. The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst implies her birth is not traditional.
There is nothing to suggest all gems aren't.

The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst just suggested that Amethyst was a byproduct of a parasitic process that would have wiped out all live of earth; where as the home world likely has no "traditional" life forms, or they died off long ago, therefore the destruction of life would not have factored into the creation of home world born gems.
By 'traditional' I meant in comparison to how home world gems are born, not how living things as we know them on earth are. We don't know how home world gems are created, whether they are all created through kindergartens or if kindergartens are used to make a different class of gem amethyst would have been part of.
 

Nazrel

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Eclipse Dragon said:
Nazrel said:
Eclipse Dragon said:
Nazrel said:
Gems reproduce non-sexually via machines that create them out of a planet by sucking the life out of it. See Ep 40 "On The Run" and Ep 60 "Keeping It Together".
You're talking about the kindergarten yeah? But we don't know if all gems are produced this way. The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst implies her birth is not traditional.
There is nothing to suggest all gems aren't.

The interaction between Pearl and Amethyst just suggested that Amethyst was a byproduct of a parasitic process that would have wiped out all live of earth; where as the home world likely has no "traditional" life forms, or they died off long ago, therefore the destruction of life would not have factored into the creation of home world born gems.
By 'traditional' I meant in comparison to how home world gems are born, not how living things as we know them on earth are. We don't know how home world gems are created, whether they are all created through kindergartens or if kindergartens are used to make a different class of gem amethyst would have been part of.
My 'traditional' was not referencing your traditional; I just meant organic life. I could have phrased it better.

To reiterate my point, though it's within the realm of possibility that home world Gems might be created differently; there is as of the moment no reason to assume that they are.
 

Eclipse Dragon

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Nazrel said:
My 'traditional' was not referencing your traditional; I just meant organic life. I could have phrased it better.

To reiterate my point, though it's within the realm of possibility that home world Gems might be created differently; there is as of the moment no reason to assume that they are.
Fair enough.
 

Redryhno

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LifeCharacter said:
inu-kun said:
A reveal after 3/4 of a series that both main female characters are bi would been a bad writing for a porno, nevermind a 52 episodes epic, there is something in fiction called "establishing facts".
Right, how dare they have two characters develop a relationship throughout the entire thing and end with them starting their romantic journery together, when they should have been flirting this entire time for the sake of certain people who apparently need all character's sexualities explicitly detailed at the earliest possible moment.

Really, 52 fucking episodes, Madoka had a quarter of that and had just about everything better (villains, characters, fights, even the romance).
Oh no! Another series was better than this series! Though if your benchmark for things is Madoka you best get to work whining in every thread about every other series about how it's not as good as Madoka.
A relationship was developed? Since when?
 

residentout1

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inu-kun said:
LifeCharacter said:
inu-kun said:
A reveal after 3/4 of a series that both main female characters are bi would been a bad writing for a porno, nevermind a 52 episodes epic, there is something in fiction called "establishing facts".
Right, how dare they have two characters develop a relationship throughout the entire thing and end with them starting their romantic journery together, when they should have been flirting this entire time for the sake of certain people who apparently need all character's sexualities explicitly detailed at the earliest possible moment.

Really, 52 fucking episodes, Madoka had a quarter of that and had just about everything better (villains, characters, fights, even the romance).
Oh no! Another series was better than this series! Though if your benchmark for things is Madoka you best get to work whining in every thread about every other series about how it's not as good as Madoka.
Yes! If the show features romance of course the protagonists sexuality is important! That's writing 101-"don't pull things out of your ass".

And let's not talk about two female characters in the same age interacting means they're absolutely gay for each other, because 2 females cannot be friends, they're either gay or competing for the same man, That's progress!

And if Madoka had a quarter of attention Korra got in the west I'd be satisfied, not to mention there's nothing wrong in comparing shows.
one thing your forgetting that Korra got a lot of parse because it is a western show and we have the One Million Moms (or were to lazy to take of or kids and need TV to do it) and American Family Association both of witch would complain to nick to band Korra. I don't know if Japan has groups like its but seeing anime with LGBT themes/tease I would think not.
 

Redryhno

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LifeCharacter said:
Redryhno said:
A relationship was developed? Since when?
Umm, did you happen to miss all the time they spent together during season 3; eating together, training together, fighting bandits together, escaping the desert together, Asami taking care of Korra, all in addition to the relatively shorter time they spent in season 4? Or are you just reading relationship as something that is always romantic from beginning to end?
Well...Bolin and Korra trained together, ate together, took care of one another, and we know for a fact she had no romantic interest in him, but did like him as a friend...Using what you just told me as the basis for a relationship, they also could've been the canon couple at the end, forget that Opal existed, because Mako was hung out to dry in terms of development just as much and the girls he dated both decided they liked one another better.

I mean, there wasn't even so much as a smile at one another out of nowhere, and I'm sorry, but I doubt bi/gay/etc relationships are all that much different from straight ones, or else I'm living with two of the weirdest Lezzies in existence...

And I read relationship as relationship, family, friend, lover, etc. And I never got that "lover" vibe really, not to mention as someone else already pointed out, Asami isn't going to be happy considering the way Korra's conducted herself around everyone else she's been in a relationship with(romantic since I apparently need to spell out what I mean now.) in the past for long. It's a bit of a forced ending and the creators' response to those either not sure or just not into it, as I've said in another post, was completely in the wrong as far as I'm concerned. Everything they'd done with Korra set the series up to have a bittersweet ending, not this "AND EVERYONE LIVED HAPPILY EVER AFTER" junk.

And I'm going to go on a tangent now:

That would've told me they actually had progressed past TLA in terms of storytelling. But it didn't, and for that, it is never going to be able to live up to TLA in any capacity. The romance is somehow worse, the characters are lazy, and the ending is an ending to Korra completely, whereas TLA had an ending to THAT story involving Aang as the central protagonist. It's a decent show, but I have trouble ranking it above the Zetman anime adaptation(and that thing's a damn abomination compared to the manga)
 

Shoggoth2588

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I haven't watched any Legend of Korra and I don't think I'd be able to add anything more to what everybody else has said about Steven Universe already. I really enjoy SU though of course...Ya know what other Cartoon Network show has a pretty good representation of same sex couples? Clarence. Somebody else mentioned it already but it's worth mentioning how casual Clarence is when it comes to same sex couples in general. Other than Jeff having two moms, there are instances of other background characters obviously being SS-couples.
 

Redryhno

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LifeCharacter said:
You think it's ok for a creator to berate and talk down to people that thought differently, I don't(quit trying to sugarcoat it). And please read again, I felt that their relationship did not progress past friendship at any point up to the "twist" at the finale. I never said that it wasn't something that happens in the real world. I'm dating someone I've known my entire life, I'm well aware of how the scenario plays out, which it didn't really play out anywhere near how my own did. Very few parallels besides us being buddies for the longest time.

So please stop the "you don't know anything" schtick, it's become terribly boring when someone has a different opinion around here lately. This is the fifth time I've had someone pull it the last two days.

I never said it needed to be some kind of teenager cliche bullshit, I just said something other than a sudden "declaration" of love needed to happen. You know, maybe some small hint of internal struggle over dating/wanting to date a friend at least? Showing these things is not something I'd call cliched teenager crap as you're describing, they're actual real emotions that happen nearly every time this crap happens. Or even some kind of precedent in the world with gay relationships beyond the ending? I dunno, I could go MovieBob and mimic his "SPARTANS ARE NAZIS BECAUSE BLUE EYES" rant with "AND YOU KNOW THEY'RE THE GOOD GUYS BECAUSE THEY'RE PROGRESSIVE AND MODERN WITH THEIR RELATIONSHIP", hopefully with the same amount of derision and laughter.

I grew up in a small town, everyone was everyone's friend at school, relationships were somewhat difficult in my grade, especially considering the band was a quarter of the size it was when we graduated, you think some bus rides didn't get uncomfortable with us dating one another and breaking up because we were dumb teenagers?

Bottom line is that we disagree on these things(and as I'm told constantly, it's ok to heavily criticize things you enjoyed at one point or another). First season of Korra barring the last two minutes or so was decent, everything after that just wasn't worth the time devote to watching for a variety of reasons, the finale just encapsulates most of my problems with it. Some people are content with hamfisted inclusion attempts, I'm not.

Also, forgive me, but I just read your name and remembered your avatar, and I'm getting out of this conversation, you're not worth the headache that's bound to happen soon.