LHC or Spyrograph?

[6unn3r]

Take a look at these "amazing" pictures from the LHC project at Cern:

Now i have to be honest and say that right from the start i thought that the LHC project was a waste of time and more importantly money but to me this amazing experiment just seems to have produced a large picture that resembles the Spirograph [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirograph/] artwork of a 7 year old. I have to wonder what exactly they are doing in that big hole in the ground that cost £6.19bn as of Jun 2010, to justify no discernible results so far....thoughts?

 

[Berethond]

Thought #1: Pretty Colors! Look! Pretty!
Thought #2: These pictures are absolutely useless without their context.

 

[theklng]

yeah, i guess progress in the field of physics isn't a worthwhile advancement. i mean, who needs teleportation when you can walk, right?

 

[Klumpfot]

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

 

[deonte9109]

snip

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God, God-particle, or just a random big bang creation.

 

[Klumpfot]

snip

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God, God-particle, or just a random big bang creation.

Nnnnope.

The so-called "god particle" is not named so for theological reasons. It is a theoretical construct needed to complete the models we currently have in theoretical physics. Basically.
What you are referring to is the Higgs Boson, by the way.

 

[Hashime]

Those "spyrograph" trails you see are the paths taken by subatomic particles. The size and shape of the spiral is how particles are detected.

 

[chuketek]

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God

lol, now there's a quote I'm going to remember

I really don't get why people insist on calling the Higgs boson "the God particle" it's got nothing to do with God. The LHC also has nothing to do with testing the validity of the big bang theory of the creation of the universe.

Things the LHC does do (aside from making pretty pictures of course):
1. Search for the Higgs Boson whose existence would explain why matter has mass.
2. Search for evidence of extra dimensions (which are unfortunately nothing like in Sliders), which would explain why the gravitational force is weak compared to others such as electromagnetism.
3. Search for particles predicted by other theories such as Super-Symmetry.
4. Refine our values for various physical constants to tune the theoretical models more accurately

It's important to validate new theories like this because if there is no experimental evidence backing up them up then you have no way of knowing whether they are right or not. You can't build technology based on physical processes which are only theoretical, the margin for error is usually too small. So this is a necessary step in making these theories more practical.
That said, we're unlikely to see many of the theories currently being tested put to use for a very long time, but who knows, we might find something of more immediate use on the way.

 

[deonte9109]

snip

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God, God-particle, or just a random big bang creation.

Nnnnope.

The so-called "god particle" is not named so for theological reasons. It is a theoretical construct needed to complete the models we currently have in theoretical physics. Basically.
What you are referring to is the Higgs Boson, by the way.

I wasnt calling it the god particle for theological reasons. I called it that because when you or me say Higgs Boson, most people dont know what that this.

 

[Klumpfot]

snip

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God, God-particle, or just a random big bang creation.

Nnnnope.

The so-called "god particle" is not named so for theological reasons. It is a theoretical construct needed to complete the models we currently have in theoretical physics. Basically.
What you are referring to is the Higgs Boson, by the way.

I wasnt calling it the god particle for theological reasons. I called it that because when you or me say Higgs Boson, most people dont know what that this.

You were still wrong though when you said that the point of the project was to determine whether or not (any) God had anything to do with the creation of our universe.

 

[deonte9109]

The point of the LHC more or less is too determine if their is God

lol, now there's a quote I'm going to remember

Way to nitpick what I say.

 

[6unn3r]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

 

[Alexnader]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

Yes, well investment in science can often be a very expensive thing. However I believe it's worth it. How do you think anything was ever discovered if people had to cite the awesome mind blowing innovation they were going to come up with before they'd actually done any of the research? The truth is that while scientists have a good idea of what they're looking for, really anything could come up that could blow open the field of physics (not particularly likely but Planck came up with the basis of what would later become quantum physics by pondering why radiation emitted from a heated object didn't make a nice curve)

The fact is that science relies on serendipity. Seemingly pointless research that can lead to a new understanding of the world. One school drop-out sitting in a patent office pondering light and BAM you've got a new theory of relativity. This is something I learned in year 11 high school physics and the Board of Studies is nothing if not... precise in what it sticks in the syllabus.

 

[theComposer]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

The research going on at the LHC has nothing to do with God or religion at all. The closest thing is the search for the so-called "God-particle", or the Higgs Boson as it's actually called, which is an illusive yet important and fundamental particle that, if discovered, will help fill in a large gap in our physical model of the universe, not prove or disprove the existence of God. The LHC is a quest for science, not religion.

 

[Calgetorix]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

First off, it has nothing to do with God.

Secondly, the results will help verify our current theories/make a theory more precise/find new stuff. Maybe you fail to see the importance but that does not make it any less important and exciting.

 

[6unn3r]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

First off, it has nothing to do with God.

Secondly, the results will help verify our current theories/make a theory more precise/find new stuff. Maybe you fail to see the importance but that does not make it any less important and exciting.

Exciting? Really? £6 billion went on making THIS ^^ exiting project and it BROKE on its first test run. Now i know there is some leway in science for trial and error but seriously? £6 BILLION!!!!! Think of all the change that could have been made to "normal" science for that kind of cash. Looking for this so called "God-particle" is all very well and good to helping us understand our origins but ultimatly the beginnings of the universe are probably way beyond human understanding. After all the big bang theory is still only a theory, we could be floating on the back of a giant turtle for all we know...

My argument is that after 15 years of design and planning and the ammounts spent on the thing one would hope that the results look somewhat more impressive than a pretty picture.

 

[Coldie]

Exciting? Really? £6 billion went on making THIS ^^ exiting project and it BROKE on its first test run. Now i know there is some leway in science for trial and error but seriously? £6 BILLION!!!!! Think of all the change that could have been made to "normal" science for that kind of cash. Looking for this so called "God-particle" is all very well and good to helping us understand our origins but ultimatly the beginnings of the universe are probably way beyond human understanding. After all the big bang theory is still only a theory, we could be floating on the back of a giant turtle for all we know...

My argument is that after 15 years of design and planning and the ammounts spent on the thing one would hope that the results look somewhat more impressive than a pretty picture.

Yes, because all a collider does is make pretty pictures. They are confirming existing data and are just now starting a lead-ion experiment that will run through the next month. Perhaps with the power and precision that LHC offers they will discover something new and interesting. And it won't be the end of the world if that also results in some pretty pictures that are completely meaningless to the layman.

Science doesn't actually work like it does in movies and games. You don't invest money and get useful results a month later, you conduct experiments, look for patterns, formulate theories, then you make predictions and conduct more experiments to confirm them. Maybe it'll take a year, or two, or fifty to find anything new with this tech, maybe won't produce expected results. And lack of results could be a result itself. Perhaps the Higgs Boson doesn't actually exist and they will have to start over and build a moon-sized hyper-collider to look for the Higgz Bozon, the clown particle. None of that is "useless".

And don't ever say "still only a theory". You don't get more than a Theory, not until physics are "done" and we all become gods and remake the multiverse to our whims.

 

[King Toasty]

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

So, because you can't see the point of those particular pictures, the entirety of the LHC project is useless? By the same logic, since I don't see any particular point to your post, the entirety of the internet is useless.

/thread

Not much more to say after that. Just because you don't understand something doesn't mean you have the right to dismiss it as useless.

My point was that this is a very expensive way of proving ideas about God. It's not that i dont understand it. Its that i fail to see any meaningfull results coming out of it.

First off, it has nothing to do with God.

Secondly, the results will help verify our current theories/make a theory more precise/find new stuff. Maybe you fail to see the importance but that does not make it any less important and exciting.

Exciting? Really? £6 billion went on making THIS ^^ exiting project and it BROKE on its first test run. Now i know there is some leway in science for trial and error but seriously? £6 BILLION!!!!! Think of all the change that could have been made to "normal" science for that kind of cash. Looking for this so called "God-particle" is all very well and good to helping us understand our origins but ultimatly the beginnings of the universe are probably way beyond human understanding. After all the big bang theory is still only a theory, we could be floating on the back of a giant turtle for all we know...

My argument is that after 15 years of design and planning and the ammounts spent on the thing one would hope that the results look somewhat more impressive than a pretty picture.

Shut up, right now, before you look even MORE stupid.

The pictures aren't the point. They're just data.

Also, I'd like to see YOU fire two hadrons at each other at 98.9999% the speed of light. If they miss, whoops, another billion down the drain. It's tough, dude. So again, shut the hell up about the pictures; it's not about the art.

EDIT: I feel the need to elaborate.
The guy above this post said, a Theory is the pretty much fact. You can't call evolution "just a theory", because we have firm evidence for it. This here is LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE of something. It's scientific method at the extreme, and it's the only way of doing. Oh, you can argue it's useless, but then so is studying anything else. It's curiosity.

 

[chuketek]

I'm gonna go ahead and ignore the arguement that the pretty pictures made for presentations to kids and people with no science background are all the LHC is good for as it's pretty clear that even you don't think that's true.
I mean it's about as ridiculous an idea as pointing to a screenshot from a gps and saying that since it's only good for making crappy images with lines and blobs it's totally useless, or claiming that guns are pointless since clearly all they can do is make loud noises.
The thing produces Terabytes of data on a daily basis, if you actually think that you could cram all of that information into a couple of 500x300ish pixel jpegs OR make it easily understandable for anyone with no physics background who stumbles onto the website then...
well if that's the case I'm really at a loss for words.

£6 BILLION!!!!! Think of all the change that could have been made to "normal" science for that kind of cash.

This (believe it or not) is actually a fair point to make, was the investment in the LHC worth the money not going to other research?
However, bear this in mind, the reason it cost so much to make is that it's an extremely complicated machine. Much research and development had to go into areas such as cryogenics and magnetics, not to mention the development of the GRID (which is to processing power what the internet is to storage). And that's just the accelerator and data processing operation, the detectors each required significant research into other, different, areas of science.
I believe it's worth the investment but I can see why some would disagree.

all very well and good to helping us understand our origins but ultimatly the beginnings of the universe are probably way beyond human understanding

So we should just give up on the whole trying to work it out thing? The ability to make artificial intelligence may be impossible but should we just stop research into it? Making humans immortal may be impossible but should we stop all medical research?
The whole idea is to try to always be working to improve our understanding of the world, not just give up because the end point appears unreachable at the moment.

After all the big bang theory is still only a theory, we could be floating on the back of a giant turtle for all we know...

I think I can safely say that we are not on the back of a giant turtle...
As for the "just a theory" thing. All of science is theories, just with varying degrees of evidence.
Electromagnetics is "just a theory" and since we can't directly watch electrons and photons we have to rely on evidence which corroborates with the theory. With the invention of Quantum Electrodynamics our theory of Electromagnetism now matches the real world to within an incredibly small margin, so we can pretty much assume that it's correct.
Likewise the Big Bang is backed up by masses of cosmological data.
I'd like to point out again though that none of the LHC experiments are looking to verify whether the Big Bang theory is true or not, just investigate the conditions that would have been present during it if it happened. If (in the massively unlikely event that) it didn't happen, then we're just looking into what happens to matter at extremely high energies, only that doesn't tend to excite the public as much as "DURING THE BIG BANG!!!" does.