Liberals, progressives and conservatives of note sign open letter to end cancel culture. (Noam Chomsky/J.K. Rowling/Gloria Steinem/David Brooks etc.)

Recommended Videos

Specter Von Baren

Annoying Green Gadfly
Legacy
Aug 25, 2013
5,637
2,859
118
I don't know, send help!
Country
USA
Gender
Cuttlefish
It is in countries that aren’t neoliberal hellholes.
Wow, didn't know the rest of the world was even worse than my own country then. If the left there is like it is here but more so then, oof.

I’ve little interest debating the structure of the Soviet Union with you but suffice to say that no, the proposed structure and actual structure never actually boiled down to “one dude is in charge” the same as any political apparatus.
When did I say Stalin was some godlike being capable of doing everything himself? If you're the head of cosa nostra you still need underlings, doesn't mean you aren't the boss. But socialism calls for everything to be owned and managed by the people, yes? The Soviets most certainly didn't govern that way and Stalin most certainly didn't share his stuff with others.

In any case, opposing capitalism does kinda run contrary to openly expanding the private sector’s control of various industries, which virtually all modern billionaires do. You wanna call Gates or Soros leftist go ahead, you’re absurdly wrong. I’ll be happy to see them pass into the dustbin of history when the time comes regardless of what you think.
Well my definition of left is different from yours and I'm pretty sure the rest of the world doesn't follow your definition even if it isn't mine.

There’s this thing called deduction.
Yes, try using it.

Nah, the right move is to just be an ass to strangers then get mad when they don’t like you.
No thanks. You do whatever you're good at though dude.
 

Gordon_4

The Big Engine
Legacy
Apr 3, 2020
6,787
6,045
118
Australia
The media is left. You are, as recently established, very capable of disagreeing with people on the left.
Rupert Murdoch is left wing now? Jesus Christ how far has the pendulum swung while I’ve been playing WoW and not giving a merry fuck?
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
To believe that billionaires and socialism are compatible is to admit you don't actually know anything about the principles of socialism.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

Elite Member
Apr 10, 2020
267
97
33
Country
Azerbaijan
What does being wealthy have to do with whether someone is left leaning or right leaning?
At what point does being 'left-wing' no longer entail aggressively working against the interests of the wealthiest and redistributing their capital? How does that sync up with media conglomerates, oligarchies and other enterprises who built their money off of exploiting misfortune and their workers?

Divorced from that, left-wing does just become a purely aesthetic term. In that instance, there is nothing of value to be debated about whether or not conglomerates and billionaires are left-leaning. Their political activity and ideology will always be constrained by their socioeconomic position and their relations to the workers. Any action comes at the end of a determination to peddle a product and to pursue profit. Aestheticising and incorporating the process into civil rights is the organic pursuit for greater capital, akin to art trading and its relation to 'fostering the arts', when in reality it's a cynical form of property management.

Ignoring for the sake of brevity that you think socialist and left are synonyms, can you not imagine someone believing or even just expressing an idea that they down personally live out?
That's what we call hypocrisy. People can be hypocrites and entails everything else surrounding that. For hypocrisy to work though, it needs more than just postulating. The media just happens to coincide with leftist criticisms of the right when its convenient for them, which is just opportunism. The Provisional Government in Russia also sided with the Soviets when it was convenient for them to seize and maintain power. Kerensky's kadetists and cronies were the ones who got astoundedly clobbered by Aurora in the end.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Buyetyen

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
That’s been the definition in most of the world since the mid 19th century.
The closest you can get is that much of the media favours Democrats. Most Democrats aren't anywhere near the left.
Democrats are the left and have always been on the left. That is the defining quality of the Democratic Party, the single through line. Like, it's in the name. The left-wing perspective is that governance should primarily be representative and democratic, that the popular will be followed. The right-wing perspective is that government is an authority tasked primarily with the people's well-being. The problem here is opinions like Revnak's that words basically all mean socialism and/or communism.

And like, I don't blame the communists. Nobody likes communism. So they've tried to steal the branding off of anything they can reach. Left-wing has a meaning, it's a focus on democracy. Progressive has a meaning, it's the state continually improving and trying new things to hopefully better the conditions of the people. Social justice has a meaning, it's about state's governing with just principles not just in criminal matters, but also in social matters. The first of those 3 predates the idea of socialism. The other two were movements directly opposed to socialism. But communists want you to think everything is either socialism or fascism because that is the only paradigm in which anyone will agree with them.
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,099
1,100
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
Unfortunately, humanity isn't quite so logical.

Yes, people's standard of living DOES have a big impact, since if things are going well for them, people won't be so quick to look for scapegoats for their problems.

But you seriously underestimate the power of ignorance, under-education and mis-education and decades of social programming settling in, making people loath to change their ways of thinking.

Hell, otherwise kind, loving, gentle people with good lives and a decent education, and are even semi-woke-ish can fall prey to bigotry and not even realize it.

Like, my immediate family is pretty liberal and think racists are horrible people. They have a very comfortable, solidly upper-middle-class Canadian lifestyle. Hell, we used to have a condo in florida we visited every year, and my parents go on vacations every year so long as there's no expensive house renovations to do.

And yet, everyone older than my brother and I were scared shitless of Singh from the NDP last election. Why? Cuz he wore a turban and looks vaguely middle-eastern. Explicitly.

The typical refrain from those who weren't neutral on Singh was, without fail, some variant of "Oh, you know how THOSE people are! They're all pushy and stuff! They're too assertive! They'll just get all the stuff THEY want and we'll be left with nothing! We need someone to look after US! This is CANADA! Yes, I know he was born here, but how can I trust he'll look after US and not THEM!" and "It's not bigoted to want to protect your people!".

The worst from my immediate famly came from a member who is otherwise VERY critical of the motives of those in power and is a gentle and wise soul who basically never gets seriously angry and shouty, and built a business from nothing successfully enough to retire at a somewhat early age. He went into a full on rant about "muslims ruining the country". And when I said "actually, he's sihk", he went "Same goddamn difference! This is CANADA!!".

If even otherwise sweet, openminded and somewhat woke on LBGT issues (they don't "get" trans people but are like "Well, whatever makes them happy!"), and well-off people like them can fall into fear of "THEM", I can't be purely optimistic that just solving everyone's economic issues will solve bigotry.

And if we look at my extended family....hoo boy. My VERY wealthy aunt who got to retire early is the "Liberals are commies who want to enslave us and Justin Trudeau is probably actually a woman. Also, the natives are ingrate parasites" kind of conservative.

Let ALONE places like the bible belt of the US, where the bigotry and actual PRIDE in their ignorance is full on BAKED into the culture. My dad has stories of insane ignorance and casual racism even among well-off people he spoke to when he visited down there for work purposes in his mid/late 20's. That takes more than just making their lives better to fix.

So yeah. Fixing quality of life for everyone will go a long LONG way to making things better. But it's nowhere near a Panacea. Ignorance and fear and misunderstandings, bolstered by years of it settling in so you're unwilling to change...That's also a serious barrier.
It doesn't matter what level of wealth some people have right now because they still live in the culture where these disparities cause these mindsets to exist. You have to actually change the whole world first and then the culture will fall in place, sorta like filling a mold with sand. Right now the mold we have will produce discriminatory feelings. Hearing about all those inner city crimes and about other people crying out about losing their jobs has an effect on everyone.

Religion is also something I think greater economic and technological prosperity can cure btw, since a lot of people resort to religion because life's conditions are too rough right now. It's no accident poorer rural areas are also way more fervently religious. Both in our country and worldwide this is a trend. Religion is a sort of soul-morphene that dulls the pain but if you use it too much you get hooked and can't be without it. Remove the pain and you remove the need for the morphene.


Counterpoint, if the company sells homophobic hats and gay pride hats, they'll still just alienate all the LBGT people and their allies.

Why? Because LGBT people will be like "How can I feel welcome buying stuff from this company, when they're outright making merch EXPLICITLY designed for people who think I shouldn't be allowed to exist? CLEARLY they think that the people who want me to stop existing or am a freak are worth the same as me, who lives in fear of those people harming me. Fine, I'm going to take my business elsewhere and tell my friends about this."

And just like that, BAM, cancelled.

Now, of course, the company could be like "we respect ALL opinions, we won't take sides, free speech, homophobes are people too".......But that's just going to alienate the LGBT people even more, because "Our right to exist isn't a debate. If you make merch for the homophobes that hate me, then screw you". And then the controversy will become loud enough for the woke/liberal/centrist-not-bigoted people to catch notice and some of them will find it icky too, and then THEY might stop buying from that company.

So, then the company once again has to choose which side is worth more money to them. The safest "middle road option" is to just not take a side at all and sell neither a homophobe cap nor a pride cap and say literally nothing that could be construed as support for LGBT people, or condoning of homophobes. ...But of course, that's not going to sell quite as hot as some "trend of the month pride caps", and some people will see them as cowards who are fence-sitting on the issue.

Finally...There are companies that DO take a "moral stand" regardless of money lost. ...Sadly, most of them are on the bigoted side, like chick-fil-a who are VERY much against LGBT people, to the point where they'll take that loss of money if it means they can hold onto their bigoted beliefs.
I think there's way more people who are either actually homophobes or who don't care about homophobia and wanna just live their lives though. If they like this chicken sammitch, they are gonna eat it. The type of person who will boycott chicken sandwitch places is not your average mainstream individual. You can see this by the fact that chick-fil-a is still in business. Hell, don't they stay closed on sundays too cause they're religious as well? If they can afford to do that and also be homophobes and they still don't go out of business that says something.

Either way though, the important thing here is that you do this from a liberal perspective. The same thing that protects people's rights to be gay and not get thrown off a roof is the thing that protects the rights of people who don't like them to be openly hateful with their views, you gotta protect both of those. Otherwise, when you lose cultural power, the roof-people will get to be fascist back at you, and that is gonna be when we have trouble.

The most catastrophic of errors here is letting the right to own liberal values and free speech and so on when it is in their nature to wanna censor things to preserve order way more. It is as you say, the bigoted and right wing places are the only ones upholding liberal free speech values right now. And as someone who values those ideas more than cultural marxism and trans folks lifting weights next to the people they want to and what have you, I am troubled by having to constantly side with people whose economic policies I disagree with, because they are the ones standing up to the greater threat to free expression that we face.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
Either way though, the important thing here is that you do this from a liberal perspective. The same thing that protects people's rights to be gay and not get thrown off a roof is the thing that protects the rights of people who don't like them to be openly hateful with their views, you gotta protect both of those. Otherwise, when you lose cultural power, the roof-people will get to be fascist back at you, and that is gonna be when we have trouble.
And this goes right back to the question of what you think this actually looks like in practice and why you think my not eating at Chik-fil-a because they're anti-gay is somehow fascism?

It is as you say, the bigoted and right wing places are the only ones upholding liberal free speech values right now.
They really aren't. Chik-fil-a are just being bigoted and performative about it. Twitter just doesn't give a shit as long as the money keeps coming in. And just about every far right social media "alternative" has at some point pissed off the freeze peach crowd by enforcing a term of service here and there.

Free speech is not the right to treat other people poorly. If somebody behaves in public like a bigoted asshole, they don't get to complain if we treat them like one.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
Religion is also something I think greater economic and technological prosperity can cure btw, since a lot of people resort to religion because life's conditions are too rough right now. It's no accident poorer rural areas are also way more fervently religious. Both in our country and worldwide this is a trend. Religion is a sort of soul-morphene that dulls the pain but if you use it too much you get hooked and can't be without it. Remove the pain and you remove the need for the morphene.
Did nobody tell you? Atheism stopped being cool like 5 years ago. The 4 Horsemen all either died a hero or became the villain already. Turns out, religion outlasted that fad. Who woulda guessed?
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

Elite Member
Apr 10, 2020
267
97
33
Country
Azerbaijan
Democrats are the left and have always been on the left.
A claim that is falsified by any instance when they're not left-wing. Bill Clinton going after welfare is a good recent example.

That is the defining quality of the Democratic Party, the single through line. Like, it's in the name.
Let's talk about definitions. No really, let's, preferrably after reading some good discussion on language by logicians:

While we're at it, let's also look at instances where 'democratic' doesn't mean 'left-wing' in the English language without resorting to moral relativism.

The left-wing perspective is that governance should primarily be representative and democratic, that the popular will be followed.
Nice definition bending to include fascism under such things. I guess Myanmar is left-wing then?

The right-wing perspective is that government is an authority tasked primarily with the people's well-being.
These two definitions are not mutually incompatible. You have effectively said nothing, which shows the hollowness of such attempts at definition. I know you're going to elaborate, and you should.

The problem here is opinions like Revnak's that words basically all mean socialism and/or communism.

And like, I don't blame the communists. Nobody likes communism. So they've tried to steal the branding off of anything they can reach. Left-wing has a meaning, it's a focus on democracy. Progressive has a meaning, it's the state continually improving and trying new things to hopefully better the conditions of the people. Social justice has a meaning, it's about state's governing with just principles not just in criminal matters, but also in social matters. The first of those 3 predates the idea of socialism. The other two were movements directly opposed to socialism.
Yeah another meme about how communists rebranded themselves to align with popular causes (rather than a general interest in social justice that varied significantly depending on tendency). Democracy comes from the Greeks in the western canon, though it's also something that's relatively common antrhopologically, but it's largely irrelevant here, since it's types of democracy that really matter. Parliamentary democracy and party structure is relatively new, and when combined with 'progressive' (which is a term that makes a historical claim, that human achievement and society progresses towards equity), these terms are all just as old as each other. Utopian socialism was around at the same time as the formation of the French Estates where 'left-wing' came about from.


But communists want you to think everything is either socialism or fascism because that is the only paradigm in which anyone will agree with them.
This was a term (socialism or barbarism) coined specifically in regards to WWII and fascism at that time, and was popularised by the Soviet Rightists during their purges and policy in East Germany. In China, the more commonly used term was 'imperialist' in reference to the Japanese occupation, which was something that the capitalist-nationalist Kuo Min Tang also partook in for the sake of ousting the Imperial Army. In current usage it refers to a specific tradition and tendency in the left, but there's no functional definition regarding the differences between liberalism and fascism so long as they operate under capitalism to Marxists who view the ongoing exploitation of the proletariat and the component assemblies of capitalism as the same in either instance.

In any case this is dishonest relative to the fact that most clamouring for 'socialism' in Europe and America has nothing to do with fascism but with the economics behind it. In America, social welfare is considered a radical position and is the real mobilising aspect of the movement. In Europe, only movements like the Anti-Deutsch think that socialism is necessary to purge fascism, and they're hardcore zionists to boot. Anti-fascism is very much a part of common decency (like it was to Orwell, and goes as far back as Kant and Hegel's 'civic society' in terms of mobilising community spirit against reactionary elements) and is independent of a case for socialism. But you can pretend otherwise if you'd like.

 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,099
1,100
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
Did nobody tell you? Atheism stopped being cool like 5 years ago. The 4 Horsemen all either died a hero or became the villain already. Turns out, religion outlasted that fad. Who woulda guessed?
It's fine, I'm not atheist, I'm actually agnostic. Still, theism and organized religion are two separate things. You can be theist but still that doesn't have to mean following what primitive puny humans could grasp with their addled primitive brains and wrote down. One doesn't necessitate the other. There may be a god or ten but they definitely aren't gonna be anything remotely close to what religions tell us they are.

And this goes right back to the question of what you think this actually looks like in practice and why you think my not eating at Chik-fil-a because they're anti-gay is somehow fascism?



They really aren't. Chik-fil-a are just being bigoted and performative about it. Twitter just doesn't give a shit as long as the money keeps coming in. And just about every far right social media "alternative" has at some point pissed off the freeze peach crowd by enforcing a term of service here and there.

Free speech is not the right to treat other people poorly. If somebody behaves in public like a bigoted asshole, they don't get to complain if we treat them like one.
Issue isn't whether you eat there or not, issue is whether places abandon their values because of how you choose to eat. Again, this isn't about what individuals do, it's about how corporations react to those things that individuals should be free to do.

Twitter was banning people for telling fired journalists to learn to code because those journalists were telling fired coal miners the same thing so they definitely aren't really just doing things for profit either, they have a slant.
 

09philj

Elite Member
Legacy
Mar 31, 2015
2,154
949
118
It's fine, I'm not atheist, I'm actually agnostic. Still, theism and organized religion are two separate things. You can be theist but still that doesn't have to mean following what primitive puny humans could grasp with their addled primitive brains and wrote down. One doesn't necessitate the other. There may be a god or ten but they definitely aren't gonna be anything remotely close to what religions tell us they are.


Issue isn't whether you eat there or not, issue is whether places abandon their values because of how you choose to eat. Again, this isn't about what individuals do, it's about how corporations react to those things that individuals should be free to do.

Twitter was banning people for telling fired journalists to learn to code because those journalists were telling fired coal miners the same thing so they definitely aren't really just doing things for profit either, they have a slant.
Twitter's slant is that you can be as hateful as you like as long as you're polite about it, so actually people getting angry about people saying they shouldn't have rights are the real bad guys. This is why Twitter is full of Nazis.
(Also, to avoid seeing Nazi shit on Twitter, simply go into your settings and change your location to Germany, where they are legally obligated to stop you from seeing it)
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

Elite Member
Apr 10, 2020
267
97
33
Country
Azerbaijan
Twitter's slant is that you can be as hateful as you like as long as you're polite about it, so actually people getting angry about people saying they shouldn't have rights are the real bad guys. This is why Twitter is full of Nazis.
(Also, to avoid seeing Nazi shit on Twitter, simply go into your settings and change your location to Germany, where they are legally obligated to stop you from seeing it)
Another radical solution: stop going on Twitter. Short messages, instant gratification and rhetoric over theory and substance are a commodity machine. Such can be seen with the bastardised rhetoric that the US Army is 'socialist', a direct product of the Red Scare and the continuing memetic junk-food transmission of tweets.
 

Buyetyen

Elite Member
May 11, 2020
3,129
2,362
118
Country
USA
Issue isn't whether you eat there or not, issue is whether places abandon their values because of how you choose to eat. Again, this isn't about what individuals do, it's about how corporations react to those things that individuals should be free to do.
And what does this look like in practice? Because all too often I see a company adopt a more accepting policy toward trans people or even an artist issue a mea culpa about some of their earlier work that they don't agree with anymore, and the most common response I hear from the Free Speech Brigade is that clearly this corporation/person was coerced into doing this by the SJW mob threatening to cancel them. The end result of course being that nothing is allowed to change ever and marginalized groups must remain marginalized.

Twitter was banning people for telling fired journalists to learn to code because those journalists were telling fired coal miners the same thing so they definitely aren't really just doing things for profit either, they have a slant.
Twitter has also banned people because TERFs mass-reported them for daring to say that trans-exclusion is bigoted while Donald Trump has gotten away with violating the TOS on a daily basis and has only recently incurred even mild censure. Twitter is just a shitty company, dude. There's no left wing conspiracy necessary, Jack Dorsey is just a shitty boss and a coward. He hides behind free speech to conceal the fact he's not willing to stand up for anything when push comes to shove. And if you think that's a specifically leftist trait, let me introduce you to some of my relatives.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
These two definitions are not mutually incompatible. You have effectively said nothing, which shows the hollowness of such attempts at definition. I know you're going to elaborate, and you should.
Of course they are. You can be more than one thing at one time, but you can't primarily be more than one thing at one time. That's how the word "primary" works. Many people try and straddle the gap, but most don't, and this difference in view between government as representation vs government as leadership shapes most of the disagreements in actual politics.

You, however, have managed to offer no definition of the words whatsoever. Not only did you effectively say nothing in that regard, you literally said nothing in that regard. Your post, your links, all put together managed to say nothing more sophisticated than "you're wrong, neener neener" without any explanation as to how or why?
 

Jarrito3002

Elite Member
Jun 28, 2016
589
488
68
Country
United States
I love this idea that Twitter only Twitter is this bastion of people with terrible hot takes. My years over various esoteric forums, reddit, facebook and hell yahoo comment sections I don't see anything from Twitter in terms jokes, hot takes and general headassery than any other spot. The only thing I can guess is that people see way too many people cosign to opinions they don't agree and think the sky is falling.

As for this position. Cute words, great diction to be expected but hollow and disingenuous to boot.
 

Sneed's SeednFeed

Elite Member
Apr 10, 2020
267
97
33
Country
Azerbaijan
Of course they are. You can be more than one thing at one time, but you can't primarily be more than one thing at one time. That's how the word "primary" works. Many people try and straddle the gap, but most don't, and this difference in view between government as representation vs government as leadership shapes most of the disagreements in actual politics.

You, however, have managed to offer no definition of the words whatsoever. Not only did you effectively say nothing in that regard, you literally said nothing in that regard. Your post, your links, all put together managed to say nothing more sophisticated than "you're wrong, neener neener" without any explanation as to how or why?
I mean if you didn't read the part where your story about the democrats is falsfied within the scope of the past 30 years, that your definition narrative literally doesn't hold up since being a 'democratic' party in a democracy is a vacuous term that says nothing about policy synchronically, about how anti-fascism can be detached from the popularity of socialism and can embody a conservative attitude (since Orwell ratted out Marxists to the British authorities) then that's your fault.

Now this 'primary/secondary' dichotomy would then suggest that all politicians are a mix of left and right wing, and that there is no fixed definition, which would contradict your earlier prepositions where you literally draw a line in the sand. To apply logic as Wittgenstein, Russell and Frege would ask us to do, here are the entailments of your prepositions:

If government is representative then by definition you elect leaders to represent you. As a result you prize leadership to enact policies.

If you instrumentalise government as the enacting of a popular will, then it is by logical entailment, an authority to be respected. When fed through the locus of representation, then it is specifically a leadership that is supposed to ensure the well-being of people.

The only difference that you could have elaborated upon instead of weaseling out of was the fact that your definitions suggest that the right-wing know what's best for the masses contra popular sentiment due to their enshrinement of paternalistic authority as an immutable Hobbesian truism. Never mind the fact that such a perspective is the realm of fascism, with its intent being to sway the public in such a way that they view the state as the embodiment of paternalistic authority that gains its validity as such.

So to get back to 'primary and secondary', then it means that your conception of political systems is one that's stuck in permanent inertia and where terms are so fluid so as to be meaningless, which retroactively undoes your Augustinianism of 'naming things by what they are'.

So your definitions become pure sophistry, unless you're leading into a secret communist point about how this illustrates the farce of bourgeois democracy. Until then, they're literally circular, and now that I hold you to account you expect me to do your work for you, despite the fact that the link I provided literally has a functioning definition of wing-polarity within it:

According to emeritus professor of economics, Barry Clark, "[leftists] claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminated"
 

Dreiko

Elite Member
Legacy
May 1, 2020
3,099
1,100
118
CT
Country
usa
Gender
male, pronouns: your majesty/my lord/daddy
And what does this look like in practice? Because all too often I see a company adopt a more accepting policy toward trans people or even an artist issue a mea culpa about some of their earlier work that they don't agree with anymore, and the most common response I hear from the Free Speech Brigade is that clearly this corporation/person was coerced into doing this by the SJW mob threatening to cancel them. The end result of course being that nothing is allowed to change ever and marginalized groups must remain marginalized.



Twitter has also banned people because TERFs mass-reported them for daring to say that trans-exclusion is bigoted while Donald Trump has gotten away with violating the TOS on a daily basis and has only recently incurred even mild censure. Twitter is just a shitty company, dude. There's no left wing conspiracy necessary, Jack Dorsey is just a shitty boss and a coward. He hides behind free speech to conceal the fact he's not willing to stand up for anything when push comes to shove. And if you think that's a specifically leftist trait, let me introduce you to some of my relatives.

See, when a company changes its opinions about something, they won't be needing to issue a mea culpa, they will just do the thing like they did the previous things, because they equally were being expressing themselves in both instances. That you even perceive it as such is an indication of coercion.


I don't have an issue with these elements, what I have an issue with is with their forced implementation. I just got done reading a third book in a series where it's mostly all capable women, every dude there is either an arrogant selfish murderous asshole or an idiot, the only nonconforming dudes are some mysterious machiaveilan god figure who is puppeteering everything, an emo Conan the barbarian who pines and dies like a dog and a cripple. And you know what, the story's great and I have bought the other 3 books left in the series. It all feels like it makes sense, you don't even realize these things I mentioned when you read, you have to stop, step out of the plot and the universe, and try to come up with any generally cool dudes that the story had, and then realize that there really weren't any. Now, the SJW would see this as some HUGE issue if instead of dudes it was women or minorities who had this fate, but I just shrugged and moved past it since I still like the story and a story about only cool women and evil or incompetent dudes can still be a cool and interesting story with magic and dragons and a wise wolf and so on. It just felt like the writer really wanted to tell this story and wasn't trying to pander, because the women are still very womanly and they are mostly reluctant heroes that have duties forced on them. It feels believable in that sense.

This is the sort of feeling I distinctly do NOT get from mea culpas. I do not get the feeling that the guy just wanted to tell this cool story he had in his mind and it just so happened to work out this way. It's all way more calculated, artificial and contrived. It's like a committee came together to figure out how to best exploit the moment.

To call this anything more than coercion is at best ignorance and at worst gasslighting.



And no I don't think there's a conspiracy, I thing twitter just has its own bubble. Like for example, their rules against misgendering. Such a thing is a fundamentally left-wing opinion. The right wing opinion would be to ban people who don't refer to people with their birth name but rather use their trans pseudonyms. Can you in any seriousness imagine them ever doing that in a million years? Can you imagine even a nazi version of twitter having that rule? Because what we do have in this twitter is the mirror image of that.

It doesn't need to be a conspiracy when it's all founded with that perspective in its core. A fish doesn't notice the water, it's all around it all the time so it thinks it's just nothing at all.
 

Aegix Drakan

♪ Megalovania is a genre ♪
Legacy
Apr 30, 2020
174
132
48
Canada
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
It doesn't matter what level of wealth some people have right now because they still live in the culture where these disparities cause these mindsets to exist. You have to actually change the whole world first and then the culture will fall in place, sorta like filling a mold with sand. Right now the mold we have will produce discriminatory feelings. Hearing about all those inner city crimes and about other people crying out about losing their jobs has an effect on everyone.

Religion is also something I think greater economic and technological prosperity can cure btw, since a lot of people resort to religion because life's conditions are too rough right now. It's no accident poorer rural areas are also way more fervently religious. Both in our country and worldwide this is a trend. Religion is a sort of soul-morphene that dulls the pain but if you use it too much you get hooked and can't be without it. Remove the pain and you remove the need for the morphene.
You're way more optimistic than me, then. I've seen far too many well off people hold onto irrational hatred and spread them because "it's what I was raised with, these are my values and culture".

Religion is a different story, as, yes, the less you need it as a source of hope, the less likely you are to need the so-called "opium of the masses" to make it through the day. It's a little more responsive than bigotry to the quality of life of people.

I think there's way more people who are either actually homophobes or who don't care about homophobia and wanna just live their lives though. If they like this chicken sammitch, they are gonna eat it. The type of person who will boycott chicken sandwitch places is not your average mainstream individual. You can see this by the fact that chick-fil-a is still in business. Hell, don't they stay closed on sundays too cause they're religious as well? If they can afford to do that and also be homophobes and they still don't go out of business that says something.
I'll grant you that there are more "I don't care, I just want my consumer goods" people than anything.

But that's the thing. They'll buy your stuff whether you have a pride cap, a homophobe cap, both, or neither. They don't give a damn. So, as a company you don't need to worry about offending them by picking a side, they'll buy your stuff regardless, so long as you don't say stuff like "You fence-sitters are evil" or something.

And at this point, I think the LGBT + Woke demographic outnumbers the homophobes. Because the homophobes are mostly on their own. The LGBT demographic has a bunch of people backing them up who are either fully supportive of them, soft supporters of them, or people just trying to look woke.

Hence why most companies tend to back them, at least on a cheap performative level. They have made the calculation and found that the numbers and money line up more with them than the bigots, and they know that the "I don't care" people won't switch supermarkets either way.

Either way though, the important thing here is that you do this from a liberal perspective. The same thing that protects people's rights to be gay and not get thrown off a roof is the thing that protects the rights of people who don't like them to be openly hateful with their views, you gotta protect both of those. Otherwise, when you lose cultural power, the roof-people will get to be fascist back at you, and that is gonna be when we have trouble.

The most catastrophic of errors here is letting the right to own liberal values and free speech and so on when it is in their nature to wanna censor things to preserve order way more. It is as you say, the bigoted and right wing places are the only ones upholding liberal free speech values right now. And as someone who values those ideas more than cultural marxism and trans folks lifting weights next to the people they want to and what have you, I am troubled by having to constantly side with people whose economic policies I disagree with, because they are the ones standing up to the greater threat to free expression that we face.
Yeah, mate that's the thing.

There's a healthy pile of evidence that shows that most of the right doesn't give a damn about actual freedom of speech and are just using it as a shield because their social views are becoming more and more unpopular and they want a shield. And for some dumb reason, people believe them.

Many in the right wing, or at least their most popular people are:
- Extremely angry at Colin Kaepernic for using his freedom of speech to kneel for the anthem and got him booted from the league (Classic "cancelling")
- Vehemently against any criticism of the illegal settlements in Palestine (you know, where settlers burn peoples homes, steal the land and set up a new town in its place) and in some states literally made emergency relief funds conditional on "You cannot support any movement that criticizes them" (which is full on censorship)
- Angry at Snowden and Chelsea Manning for revealing their own country's war crimes to them, and claim they're traitors who need to be locked up or executed.
- Several Red States literally have it on the books that "an atheist cannot run for office" (Even though this would be slapped down by the constitution if it were ever challenged, because DUH)
- There are Red States that have de-facto made it illegal to protest recently, and literally arrested people for "protesting without a permit", but also refusing to process ANY permits to protest.

This is to say nothing of the president being like "We should make burning the flag punishable by a year in jail" and having the support of a lot of the right wing despite the fact that case was handled by the supreme court a loooooooong time ago and it was ruled to be freedom of expression, and thus, protected.

Meanwhile, when there's an attack on freedom of speech against the left in any form, the right is completely silent. And I mean an actual attack, like, the government taking some kind of punitive action for speech, not "oh noooo, people on twitter didn't like what I said and are engaging in Economic Boycott and Social Shaming of me! I am being CENSORED! My free speeeeech!!"

And finally, the far FAR right already doesn't believe in free speech at all. They caught Richard Spencer on mic saying that, no, of course he doesn't believe in freedom of speech, he just thinks it's a good tactic to use while his odious views are not mainstream.

Now, you can totally be worried that "cancelling" (ie, organized economic boycotts and social shaming) may have a chilling effect on free speech, that's totally reasonable to worry about. But if you think that the Right owns freedom of expression as anything other than an opportunistic tool, you're being silly.

For a youtuber with similar views to you on quality of life leading to less bad behaviour, and a belief in free speech absolutism, but who actually routinely points out just how much the "free speech warriors" don't actually practice what they preach and points out the ways they're hypocrites, I'd recommend you look up Secular Talk / Kyle Kulinski. He's actually one of my main political news sources for the US, because his instincts are generally correct.
 

Aegix Drakan

♪ Megalovania is a genre ♪
Legacy
Apr 30, 2020
174
132
48
Canada
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
The left-wing perspective is that governance should primarily be representative and democratic, that the popular will be followed.
And yet, medicare for all, ending the wars and mandating a living wage are both popular and gaining even more traction during the pandemic, yet, the dems aren't budging on those at all...

The right-wing perspective is that government is an authority tasked primarily with the people's well-being.
Funny then, that the right wing in the US seems to care so little about the people's well-being. The Pandemic has REALLY ripped the mask off.

- Trying to kill the last remnants of the minor healthcare reform during a pandemic, which will remove the access to healthcare for tens of thousands of people, when already a massive amount of people have lost their insurance because they've lost their jobs.
- Pouring trillions into direct stock market bailouts and giving people a single check across 5 months that's not even enough to cover just the RENT for even ONE month. (which the supposed left wing democrats also agreed to despite the idea being massively unpopular)
etc etc.

So excuse me if I have issues with both of those statements.

In most other countries, the Dems would be the conservative party. Hell, the only reason Bernie would be considered to be to the left of any serious party in Canada is because his health care proposal covered glasses and dental care, which ours doesn't.

Your country's political spectrum is VERY off compared to most of the world's developed nations.
 

tstorm823

Elite Member
Legacy
Aug 4, 2011
7,660
978
118
Country
USA
I mean if you didn't read the part where your story about the democrats is falsfied within the scope of the past 30 years, that your definition narrative literally doesn't hold up since being a 'democratic' party in a democracy is a vacuous term that says nothing about policy synchronically, about how anti-fascism can be detached from the popularity of socialism and can embody a conservative attitude (since Orwell ratted out Marxists to the British authorities) then that's your fault.

Now this 'primary/secondary' dichotomy would then suggest that all politicians are a mix of left and right wing, and that there is no fixed definition, which would contradict your earlier prepositions where you literally draw a line in the sand. To apply logic as Wittgenstein, Russell and Frege would ask us to do, here are the entailments of your prepositions:

If government is representative then by definition you elect leaders to represent you. As a result you prize leadership to enact policies.

If you instrumentalise government as the enacting of a popular will, then it is by logical entailment, an authority to be respected. When fed through the locus of representation, then it is specifically a leadership that is supposed to ensure the well-being of people.

The only difference that you could have elaborated upon instead of weaseling out of was the fact that your definitions suggest that the right-wing know what's best for the masses contra popular sentiment due to their enshrinement of paternalistic authority as an immutable Hobbesian truism. Never mind the fact that such a perspective is the realm of fascism, with its intent being to sway the public in such a way that they view the state as the embodiment of paternalistic authority that gains its validity as such.

So to get back to 'primary and secondary', then it means that your conception of political systems is one that's stuck in permanent inertia and where terms are so fluid so as to be meaningless, which retroactively undoes your Augustinianism of 'naming things by what they are'.

So your definitions become pure sophistry, unless you're leading into a secret communist point about how this illustrates the farce of bourgeois democracy. Until then, they're literally circular, and now that I hold you to account you expect me to do your work for you, despite the fact that the link I provided literally has a functioning definition of wing-polarity within it:

According to emeritus professor of economics, Barry Clark, "[leftists] claim that human development flourishes when individuals engage in cooperative, mutually respectful relations that can thrive only when excessive differences in status, power, and wealth are eliminated"
To that last sentence, if a point needs to be lead with "According to "X" person", you can be confident that the argument is incapable of supporting itself.

My definition doesn't suggest that the right-wing know what's best for society. My definition suggests that right-wing figures suggest they know what's best for society, not contra popular sentiment, but regardless of popular sentiment. There's no rule that good and popular have to disagree, there are plenty of instances of right-wing and left-wing thought agreeing on specific policy.

And the idea that right-wing people then just accept the state as benevolent because that's the ideal is silly. The American right-wing specifically distrusts the state because of the view that the state is individuals enacting their authority rather than a representation of popular will. Left-wing and right-wing are a discussion of the nature of governance, and there are infinite further breakdowns on what people think is the ideal form of government given what they believe the nature is. An evangelical theocrat and a libertarian coexist on the same spectrum of left vs right because of the agreement that government is authority rather than representation. That one of these people wants to minimize that authority while the other seeks to control it is a separate debate entirely.

And that you think Bill Clinton doing anything falsifies my view means you don't understand the words yet. Welfare is only left-wing if the people want it. A left-wing politician can absolutely reasonably attack welfare if that's majority opinion. Thus is the nature of democracy.