Libya

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Booze Zombie

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Dec 8, 2007
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Jedihunter4 said:
IQ means jack shit, its how you use it
Even if were to play out like that do u realy think thats worse than a madman who murders his own people.

U sound like an ultra left wing, who's never happy, cause the "system" is always working against them

I'm not going to waste my time
Freedom includes freedom to complain, theorise and be as un-like-you as I please, by the way.

Not that I do actually feel any systems are working against me, which might have something to do with not living in America or me not being a conspiracy theorist.
Pick the most logical choice and presume it upon me.

Also, yes... read the post way above by a guy called AceAngel who used to live in Libya.
His description of the area seemed pretty... okay.
 

Booze Zombie

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Jedihunter4 said:
Come back with reasons against what i have said right there, i'll stop attacking you, if you come back with reasons why the world should stand by why he murders his own people? or why its okay he has basicly been robbing them blind for 40 years while he is rich beyond belief, Libya could be the crowing jewel of north Africa if that money was spent on developing the country, it could become a world wide economic and political power. The standard of living for everyday citizens would go through the roof! how can you argue with that? please come back with some reasons, I am very interested to know what they are.
Come back with some reasons for me, first.

Firstly, why did the U.N wait forty years until they helped these people? If it's such a major crime they should've solved it all those years ago.

Secondly, why aren't the U.N slapping America about for killing civilians in Iraq?

Thirdly, why just Libya? There are many other countries where people are murdered on behalf of their own government and various "basic human rights" are violated, but no one really gives a damn.

Finally, why should you be "attacking" me? I am not defending the Colonel, I am asking if you honestly believe your own country wouldn't shoot rebels and knowing the complexity of urban warfare, cause civilian causalities?

As for my answers to all of your questions there: We stood by for the last 40 years, why are the Colonel's actions any more or less acceptable now than then, huh? They aren't.
But apparently, everything has slotted into place neatly enough for the U.N to have a go at Libya for "morality" and "freedom" and I'm not buying it.

Fun fact: The rebels are a minority, the Colonel has most of the civilian populace following him (well, passive, might as well be the same thing). Transitioning to a free democracy will be a painful chaos for them.
 

Booze Zombie

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Jedihunter4 said:
What I'm basicly saying is, do you think he should be allowed to carry on like he is, are they not doing the right thing in terms of getting rid of him? do you not think crimes against humanity should be punished?
He shouldn't have been there in the first place, but all of the other politicians didn't give a shit because it's not their country or their people being effected.

There's also the moral issue of "he may be doing things we disagree with, but do we have a right to act like the world police and do shit about other countries?". So, him being a **** isn't an issue, it's "what can we do and why are we doing it"?
Because, that is what will effect the people of Libya when they get "freedom" placed upon them.
 

Eisenfaust

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it's not as much that he has an armed rebellion happening, more of the fact that he's a bit of a nutter...

there's a bit of a stigma about facist dictators wantonly slaughtering a representative rebellion... not to mention that doing so with a far superior army seems a little... unfair
 

MorphingDragon

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Jedihunter4 said:
we were getting oil anyway so why hell is that an issue surely if all we cared about was the oil we would be sending support to gadaffi or just letting him get on with it?
Because this gives an opportunity to get even cheaper oil and more cred with the international community for helping a country abolish its dictatorship.

If Libya adopts a (proper) capitalist form of production because of this revolt, then expect oil prices to !@#$ themselves up further. Capitalism is very easy to manipulate, and Libya would be very inexperienced.
 

chinangel

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Gadhafi kind of brought this on himself. There are bad people on both sides. Unfortunately for the Libyan government, most of the bad people are on their side.
 

MorphingDragon

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Jedihunter4 said:
MorphingDragon said:
Jedihunter4 said:
we were getting oil anyway so why hell is that an issue surely if all we cared about was the oil we would be sending support to gadaffi or just letting him get on with it?
Because this gives an opportunity to get even cheaper oil and more cred with the international community for helping a country abolish its dictatorship.

If Libya adopts a (proper) capitalist form of production because of this revolt, then expect oil prices to !@#$ themselves up further. Capitalism is very easy to manipulate, and Libya would be very inexperienced.
K first of tell me how much we pay for Libyan oil? Exact figure? You won't know cause this is just you speculative opinion. How do u know wenare not paying through the nose,
That was the point, speculation. It was hypothetical, hence if.

Though just to piss you off even more, official estimates in 2008 put libyan oil at $1 barrel to produce and sold for $110 by the national oil company. The price of oil per barrel now is $105~115 according to ASB Securities - these are international prices and independent of company.

http://www.energyandcapital.com/articles/libya-oil-price/640

Jedihunter4 said:
also do you think libyans are idiots I'm pretty sure in a new government they can hire someone, I'm sure there are very knowledgable people in Libya who can negotiate.
"Business" is much, much more than negotiation and smarts. Also I did not say they are idiots. Libya has been under a dictatorship whose main source of income and money flow was state owned assets. I would be hard pressed to think the country as a whole would have a strong business arm in the private sector. Also in a capitalist mode of production, National Oil Company would become privately owned therefore the government wouldn't hire people.

Jedihunter4 said:
Also if u truly belive it's about oil why would they risk Gadaffi setting the oil fields alight an watching it burn.
If Gaddafi was a logical, reasonable and predictable man then he wouldn't of open fired on peaceful protesters.

Jedihunter4 said:
Anyone knows it's not a good idea to disrupt ur flow of any good, ur all arguing on Very very flawed logic that's been used again an again by the left wing to tar anything that's done in the middle east or north Africa an time an time again it's beaten back cause it's bull crap
I'm starting to seriously question your understanding of political terms. You chuck the term left around like its on your word for today, yet the views "lefts" are expressing are independent of political bias. You don't need to be a lefty to be suspicious of motives.

Hell lefts should support the rebels and the UN as they strive to bring an Egalitarian society to Libya, if not they are not true lefts. So I have no clue what your issue is.
 

Barciad

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This is not Iraq, thank God. This is a genuine uprising against a genuinely unpleasent tyrant. Though Gaddafi might not be on the same level of villany as Saddam, he still is pretty bad. Had we not intervened, there would have been a blood bath.
On the political/diplomatic level, Obama was wise to stay out of things until it became apparent that American military might was required. He knew, that in light of the whole Iraq debacle, that an American president to go blundering in, issuing dictates, and then bombing whoever he damned pleased, was a recipe for disaster. So he made a gamble. He decided to let someone else make the running this time, let the Europeans do the diplomatic heavy lifting.
This is where Sarzoky and Cameron stepped in, and I'd never thought I'd hear myself say this, but the pair of them played a blinder. This was at the point remember that Gaddafi's forces were bearing down upon Bengazi, posed to slaughter thousands. The rebels, honest amateurs to the last were no match for the firepower that Gaddafi's mercenaries possessed.
Thus, we did what we should have done in 1930's Spain and right after the initial Gulf War. How we take it from here though is still up in the air, any suggestions?
 

SpAc3man

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From what I have gathered the UN is not supporting the rebels at all, just condemning the killing of civilians in order to make the rebels stand down. There is no plan to occupy Libya, just to cripple Gadaffi's ability to attack civilians with planes/artillery. The rebels will be left to do the rest.
 

Booze Zombie

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Jedihunter4 said:
Yer we do, just like I have the right to help the man across the street from me if he's being mugged an calling out for help, the world has a right to help anyone who is being persecuted anywhere an calling for help.

I'm not turning this religious or anything but it gets alot of stick religion, but when it comes down to it the very basic morals of what it meens to be a decent human being are there I think it can apply to anyone. an from the sounds of it u could learn what it meens to have some compassion towards people in need.

The good Samaritan anyone?

Love thy neighbour?

or just some simple god dam compassion. these people are dieing, because some mad man wants to live in a fucking palace an reign over like some flipping king. I for one think that's a good enough reason to get in there an kick some fckin ass. what ever the reason we are helping, i dont care what matters is right now we are doing the right thing. I disagree with you why we are there though, we were getting oil anyway so why hell is that an issue surely if all we cared about was the oil we would be sending support to gadaffi or just letting him get on with it?

Also i can't help but notice every time I totally shoot down something you have said, you have nothing to come back with?

Also look at my post above a bit where i said about the factors as to why its not allways viable to do anything, the Romans did't take over the know world by rushing in like madmen an the world is not going to be freed like that either. Be realistic the UN cant wave a magic wand and make the bad men go away, too many casualties an people will loose heart in the cause when there is not the direct threat of invasion or death to them. Simple as.
Morality is subjective and not everybody works by the same rules, it's the same reason a psychological test doesn't work on Japanese people very well when it's been designed for American middle class white people.

What I'm trying to say is, preaching is nice... you want the best for these people, that's great. But different people from different parts of the world think differently.
People have different ideas of "the best". Now, I'm not saying that Colonel Crazy-Guy is "the best", but he was stable and people didn't have to think about much, even if they weren't getting much of the big cake, y'know?

Then a ripple effect from Egypt hits Libya, shit hits the fan and now everyone's stepping up.
The people getting screwed by EVERYONE are the civilians, the Colonel will probably die of old age, the rebels will probably just become the new version of him and the U.N looks big and strong in front of the world. Woo-hoo.

I am all for helping people... but I don't think we're actually going to help them that much.
Sigh... maybe I am cynical, but the parts of the world shape their people differently and those people will always do what they do. You can force freedom upon the people but they'll likely just reject it and go back to their old ways. It's human nature.

You've been shooting me down? I thought those were a bunch of non-connected statements, not challenges.