MAGA

[crimsonspear4D]

Whole anime series or studios alone can't save an industry that's been rolling around in its own stagnant filth for going on goddamn two decades now. I think most of us can agree that even with the uptick in superb animation quality, creative story elements, and unique, sometimes immersive, universe building, even the most beautifully crafted, entertaining, well-regarded anime barely amounts to being okay, maybe even good, based on one simple, yet crucial, factor: THE CHARACTERS.

Spoiler: TL;DR

I don't think I need to spell out that the overwhelming majority of male protagonists are utterly horrible, generic, and boring people to waste your time watching. With personalities and motivations that make you want to take a brick to their nuts every time they appear on screen.

And female characters in general? I mean I know they mostly only exist as mascots, advertisments, and fap-bait, but even in universe I don't even see them as people. They're props, cardboard cutouts, living furniture. No matter the style, history, or quirk/personality - because even a lamp could have that - they serve little purpose other than trying to keep your attention.

Hell, most supposed anime fans on blogs, forums, etc. couldn't tell you the plot or characters from some of the supposedly highly popular anime that come out yearly that you couldn't just read from a wiki, but show them a picture of the show's waifu-bait and all of a sudden they have eidetic memory.

One simple thing could save most anime from just being another batch of vaporware and that's giving your characters some bit of humanity or nuance, not some clone of the same character that's been in 10 shows that season alone.

As an example, when you're making another harem anime, rather than have your male anchor be some boring, infuriatingly over-chivalrous, nice guy or some whiny, dickless, perma-virgin as your stop from having him do SOMETHING romantic or sexual to his eagerly waiting will platoon of cock socks, have your male character be gay or at least aggressively not interested in them. You could just have him being constantly swarmed by his harem of slavishly devoted, highly curvaceous - or loli, sex goddess and he couldn't even be begged to give a shit because he's chasing down overweight, frumpy, Plain-Jane" girls or dudes to care.

That alone has some comedic value, put some giant robots and religious symbolism in there and you got a show for a season.

 

[NPC009]

nowdays there is an insane amount of female dedicated fanservice popping up.

Define "an insane amount".

Not literally insane but I think there is more female dedicated fanservice shows than male ones:
Trickster, Yuri!!, Uta no☆Prince-sama♪, Magic-Kyun! Renaissance, Touken Ranbu: Hanamaru, Watashi ga Motete Dousunda, (I'm not sure, I should see) Nanbaka and a lot of sports anime that sometimes do male on male baiting.

Throw a rock at any magical highschool, shounen tournament arc, or or cute girls show and you're going to get an avalanche of fanservice aimed at hetero male audiences. Nevermind the slice-of-life and historical action pieces that have yuri undertones.

The market is pretty saturated in fanservice for just about any preference.

I'm not saying there's no fanservice for males, I'm just tired of the idea of "all anime fanservice is for males".

It's an understandable idea, though. Fanservice towards female viewers is relatively new, especially in this quantity (and quality). Series like Ouran and Black Butler opened the gates less than a decade ago, and it wasn't really until Free! that higher levels of female-oriented fanservice began to be considered mainstream.

Many older female fans probably remember the days when the had to make do with Gundam Wing fanfics.

 

[09philj]

Back in the old days, most of what was imported were the things that US and European distributors were absolutely sure could make bank. This did mean that most of the things that were brought over were good, but there was a lot of fairly similar stuff. With the increasing popularity of things like CrunchyRoll, mass importing of the whole of a company's seasonal output is the norm. On the upside, slightly more oddball and adventurous work gets to western audiences. On the downside, all the shit gets here as well. Couple that with a lot of writers wanting to ape other successful work or stay in their comfort zone, and things are bound to be on a downward trend by percentage, but there's still a lot of good work.

 

[NPC009]

I think the anime that best encapsulates this is Genshiken, contrast the old cast which represents anime fans in the show debut: [genshiken]

Yep. And while I'm fond of the original Genshiken, am having a lot of fun with the recent cast as well. There's a better sense of representation. Ohno used to be a bit of the token geekgirl, but now she is one girl within a cast of many and all characters are different. They do reflect current developments in anime (related) fandoms.

Watching these developments play out in real life has been interesting and entertaining as well. You have old fans unwilling or unable to adjust, old fans just going with the flow or even embracing the changes, old fans that finally feel it's okay to be a fan... Plus, female fans in general seem to be more open about things. Sure, there's a lot of love for series with BL elements, but I've also met plenty of girls who are open about liking shows like Keijo!!!!!!!!, saying those are great fun because they're so over the top ridiculous. I think that's great.

 

[Saltyk]

I'm actually surprised by the opinions. I'm really only a part time otaku, I suppose. I really only check out what people recommend or what I think I will like. Mostly made this thread to see what people thought of One's work and what it might be for anime going forward. It really only takes one great work to alter the status quo in any medium. Anime like Dragon Ball and movies like Matrix can attest to that.

Nitpick alert: One Punch Man was already a manga. It was redrawn as a new manga.

Well, it was an online manga, was it not? I guess you might call it a web-manga. Most people have referred to it as a webcomic and that seems to include anime reviewers I've seen.

 

[NPC009]

I'm actually surprised by the opinions. I'm really only a part time otaku, I suppose. I really only check out what people recommend or what I think I will like. Mostly made this thread to see what people thought of One's work and what it might be for anime going forward. It really only takes one great work to alter the status quo in any medium. Anime like Dragon Ball and movies like Matrix can attest to that.

I'm not so sure about that. Back in the 80s and 90s, the things that were brought over were more often than not part of a bigger trend. For instance, Dragonball Z wasn't the first fight-fight-fight shonen series that got popular, Saint Seiya took off several years prior. It's just that you rarely get to see the big picture unless you're neck-deep into something.

As for One, I think his stuff is great, but:
-What One excel at is deconstructing genres, but he's not the only one with that skill. Other hit anime do the same with other genres. The original Mobile Suit Gundam, Neon Genesis Evangelion, Puella Magi Madoka Magica, Re:Zero... These deconstructions pave new paths by being aware of established rules within genres. As in, they couldn't have existed without the titles that formed the foundations of those genres; titles that were once revolutionary themselves. One does not make something out of nothing.


-Every season has a few shows with amazing animation. While Mob Psycho 100 certainly stands out, the concept of 'animation that doesn't look like shit' was never forgotten. Give a great studio and big budget and you're bound to see something impressive.

My only problems is with Madarame new voice actor and him not getting a girlfriend, I just feel bad for him.

I haven't read the final volumes of the manga yet (the series ended in August), maybe he still has a chance there? And yeah, I do hope the whole MadeHarem thing pays off. All that build-up has to lead somewhere, even if it's just a girl from outside of Genshiken.

I'm not inside anime communities so I don't know how the well the change was received but it doesn't surprise me that some women like Keijo!!!!!!!!, I mean Jojo is heavy into.... "glorifying" the male form but nobody cares because the main thing is how fun the show is.

I think the light-hearted framing has something to do with it. Both Jojo and Keijo move the human body in impossible ways and never ask the viewer to take this seriously. It's very unlike the fanservice shows that spend a lot of time just panning suggestively. And in case of Keijo, the show doesn't try to paint the sport as something noble. The girls are all in it for things like money, fame and plain old fun. That also removes a lot of the creep factor the show could have had.

Maybe the secret for it is the doujins and Light Novels. Studios just buy the rights of those that sell well rather than rely on writers that usually fall into specific categories.

Light novels are an important source for anime studios nowadays, and I guess that makes sense. They're a very accessible medium, for both consumers and writers. And webnovels and comics take that accessibility another step further. With so many people creating and consuming, there are bound to be some gems in there.

That said, when thinking of shows that might push anime further, I often think of original titles first. Adaptations are just that - adaptations; another facet of a multimedia franchise. And while there are excellent adaptations of excellent manga/anime/light novels/webtoons/visual novels/games out there, they just don't feel as fresh as original titles. Original titles can surprise people, because nobody aside from the creators knows what's going to happen the next episode. It's what makes following series like Yuri!!! on Ice so exciting and fun. Whole internet communities are speculating where Victuuri will go. When fans are engaged, popularity grows, and in the end, popularity is one of those things used to measure success.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

I usually prefer original titles as Light Novels (and Mangas for lesser extent) tend to be very mediocre or rip offs, but the industry itself is great as it allows the chance for genres and ideas (such as BL, minor sports like hiking or pure insanity) that would not have seen the light of day in the west, we don't have such bullshit as "no one wants female super heroes" or trying to homogenize known franchises to maximize appeal.

I don't know what you mean by that, are you saying that the western animation industry does do these things or the japanese industry? Because I think that's wrong on either account.

The west has done some far-out, zany cartoon series over the years, it's just that 9 out of 10 of them are sooooooo terrible because they try to be like either Family Guy or South Park, using that whole "offensive and controversial humor for the lulz" type garbage.

And the whole female hero thing? I sincerely doubt the otaku audience in Japan gives a shit about having them, because most of the manga I've seen with women with superpowers in recent years continue to show them off as still incompetent, childish, over-emotional, overly cowardish, moronic cretins who you wouldn't trust holding a whistle let alone the cosmic energy of the universe. Between magical girls, warrior women, or whatever else that has lady bits and want to call themselves heroes the ones that actually DO and ARE something like a hero are vastly outnumbered by the ones that PRETEND to be heroic just so the male audience can laugh or get aroused at seeing them fail miserably over and over again.

I can only count on two hands actual female heroes that were given any sense of agency or competence even despite looking like pin-up girls. Say what you want about how the western industries treat their female heroes, but at least they have dignity and given basic human intelligence.

And Homogenize appeal? It seems like most anime and manga do that entirely, it's just more subtle than ours. I'd compare it to how the SYFY channel comes up with their monster movies every month, put a bunch ideas together and throw them and until they can make something coherent. Or the Asylum and just rip off whatever's popular and slightly change certain aspects so it's not entirely plagiarism.

 

[Fox12]

That's right. MAGA.
Make Anime Great Again.
What? Did you think it was something else?

Okay, there's a ton of anime released every year. And it varies in tone, intent, and quality. But I think one person has really upped the ante in what anime can be. That person is one. No, seriously. It's One. The guy who created One Punch Man.

One Punch Man has an interesting history. I mean look where it started.

While I couldn't call this terrible, I certainly wouldn't pay money for it. However, it eventually got noticed by a lot of people. One of whom was Yusuke Murata, who has effectively redrawn the series as a manga. And Holy Jesus does he do some amazing work.

Spoiler: Just look at it

Yes, this is a manga. Really!​

And, of course, One Punch Man has been adapted into an anime. Though, judging by that last image they didn't have to do too much.

I think part of what makes this series so noteworthy to people is a combination of things. There's the comedy to it. But also how well the series actually builds up villains. The build up of the Deep Sea King was excellent, for example. And how well it handles the characters. How characters like Genos and Puri Puri Prisoner change throughout the series. And there's also the fights, which are excellent.

And oddly enough, how relatable Saitama is. Yes, I know he's a God among men who finds fighting monsters the size of buildings boring, but I think that IS what makes him relatable. To him this is all mundane. It's just Tuesday. How many of us have experienced that? How many sit in cubicles just waiting for the end of their shift? To Saitama fighting monsters is his cubicle.

But that's not the end. Recently, another of One's works has been made into an anime. Mob Psycho 100. A series about a boy with near infinite psychic powers who just wants to be normal. He doesn't see his ability as unique or special. And there is something refreshing about that. Seriously, go watch Mob Psycho 100 if you haven't. You'll thank me.

I kind of view One Punch Man the same way I view Scott Pilgrim. You come in for the comedy, but at some point you realize there's actually an important character driven story that has something to say. It makes you realize that pop and entertainments can still strive to be something more while remaining fun.

One Punch Man is a great parody of the OP superhero phenomenon for this reason. Who would win in a fight between superman and goku? One Punch Man. It's been funny seeing that community react negatively to Saitama. But OPM takes it a little further, and that's what makes it special. Saitama achieves his dream, but then realizes that there's nothing left to strive for. He has an existential crisis, and has to find other ways to give his life meaning. He finds it in his friends, and by being around people. This turns characters like Goku on their head, since their always struggling to pass the next limit. The idea is sort of subtle, and it doesn't distract from the humor, but it's definitely there. The show has become a breath of fresh air as a result.

So, has One, despite his lacking talent as an artist, managed to reinvigorate anime with his writing and humor? Are there others who done this, either today or historically? Am I over-hyping the work of one man?

And remember. Make Anime Great Again!

I doubt it, but I hope so. It's pretty hard to reinvigorate an industry. You have to inspire everyone to follow you. It's not enough to be talented, and you never know what's gonna stick. Miyazaki and Anno were both anime geniuses, for instance, but I can't think of any successful Miyazaki imitators, whereas there are tons of people inspired by Anno. Neon Genesis was directly responsible for the anime renaissance of the 90s. Shows like Lain and Cowboy Bebop were able to exist because Neon Genesis broke new ground.

So who knows. I would love to see more show insert real heart into their work and subvert tropes, instead of stiffly follow them. Madoka tried and failed. Maybe One will have more luck.

Which would be funny, since I don't think saving anime was ever his goal.

 

[NPC009]

I don't think he really "deconstructs" genres, there's a lot of trope playing but usually the setting and characters are too bizarre to be seen as the norm being deconstructed as well as a lot of optimism in his work (most humans are good or at least have good intentions).

In most cases, genre deconstructions end up in depressing bloodbaths, and yes, that doesn't really go for One-Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100, but One does do what a deconstruction is supposed to do: he takes the common tropes, plays them straight and sees where is goes from there. The biggest difference with most deconstructive titles is that he makes comedies out of it.

Look at Saitama. He's like early Superman: so strong, saving the day is matter of just showing up. Unlike early Superman, this actually affects him emotionally. His life feels empty and his emotions are blunted.

 

[Arnoxthe1]

Neon Genesis was directly responsible for the anime renaissance of the 90s. Shows like... Cowboy Bebop were able to exist because Neon Genesis broke new ground.

wat? Cowboy Bebop has very little, if anything, to do with Neon Genesis. It wasn't even inspired in the slightest by it.

 

[Fox12]

Neon Genesis was directly responsible for the anime renaissance of the 90s. Shows like... Cowboy Bebop were able to exist because Neon Genesis broke new ground.

wat? Cowboy Bebop has very little, if anything, to do with Neon Genesis. It wasn't even inspired in the slightest by it.

I didn't say it was. What I'm saying is that the entire nature of how anime studios finance their projects was changed by the overwhelming financial success of Neon Genesis. This led, commercially and artistically, to the kind of environment where more experimental or creative works could get made.

 

[crimsonspear4D]

snip

I'm sorry, did I imagine the massive hysterics about Korra having a lesbian relationship (even if it wasn't even perceived as such in the start) more than a decade after anime like Sailor Moon and Sakura? Maybe in another decade there will be a gay hero!

Yeah, and that was and still is fucked up. I too wish western cartoons could have more lgbt main or side characters in them, at the very least lay off using them as annoying caricatures, if for nothing else it would seem like a more inclusive and "realistic" world. We're getting better in some regards but we definitely got a long way to go, there's no doubt about that.

However, before people keep singing Japan's praises, they may have been the first to cast queer folk in a decent light but it ain't like they've have this long record of having positive gay characters and relationships, it's spotty at best. I know people like to tout Utena, Card Carptors, and those two characters from Sailor Moon a lot, but for every ONE instance of positive representation you have dozens of shows and books that portray gay people as annoying or just sinister perverts who hate the opposite the gender because they're jealous or something (because straight pervert MCs are better?) and transgendered people as mentally unstable sociopaths. So its like a reverse bad apple spoiling the bunch.

As for female heroes, either you watched shitty anime or you don't regard any none mary sue female character as a good character. Shit, One Punch Man has couple of great female characters.

I genuinely prefer female mary sues over male ones any day of the week. Even those with the "Stong Female" trope, because at the very least they're not your typical japansese portrayal of female characters in anime/manga. At their absolute worst, they're just whiny brats that spout the same childish notions of love and friendship at the or beginning of every fight. And yeah, OPM has some great female characters in it; hell, there are a bunch of anime that came out THIS YEAR that had some pretty decent female characters in them. The problem is that its a total crapshot if they are decent, well-developed characters and not the same mountainous piles of screeching, brain-damaged, jiggling meat bags.

As for watching shitty anime, well when half the anime that comes out every year *IS* just shit with little to no redeeming value I tend to watch anyway because when the porn of it comes out I want to know who the characters are and what the situation is.

And yeah, there's usually no actual message in western animation (or movies) that tries to raise thought, I'd rather have GATE's insane nationalism over Korra's "extreme things are bad m'kay". As well as even harder fall into tokenism and the gratuitous China ass kissing in movies today.

I don't know where this came from, but I couldn't care less about cartoons or anime having some profound message, I just don't want to be bored and/or annoyed to fucking tears watching something. Especially something that COULD have had potential but instead of having interesting or nuanced characters or stories, edges out at being mediocre to just okay, they want to appeal to a base that would be fine with just seeing a "cool guy" kick ass and get swarmed on by women or just cute girls doing random things while being cute and having the fascination of a person on shrooms.

Movies... yeah you're right about that, I don't know where that's coming from, or why.

To put it one way, I would've loved GATE, the animation is great, the settings and story were interesting and fun, and even some of the side characters were likable. However, the thing that killed this anime for me was just how fucking boring, generic, and ultimately unsatisfying the main protagonist of show/book was. Usually I can stomach it but what what hurts worse is that there were other characters I'd like know and follow, like Shino or Akira or anyone else not this fuck, but instead I have to watch this douche "save the day" when literally anyone else with half as bit as skill and intellect in their job could do it.

That's my take at least.

 

[NPC009]

Oh, LGBT in manga, anime and cartoons! I wanna join the discussion!

What I noticed in western media, is that gay relationships are often used as a statement or message. These characters don't just get together because they love eachother, they get together because the writer has something to say. It makes sense, sure. American LGBT people wouldn't be where they are now without decades of activism and there's still so much they have to fight for. Using fiction to send a message feels natural. And couples like Korrasami aren't just a message, they show and conform a level of power and freedom gained through activism.

Looking at it like that, it's hard to hate media that sends a positive message. However, the actual writing is often a little awkward, as the means to actually show the developing relationships are often limited. Korrasami was pretty much all subtext until the finale confirmed it. And actually, the finale didn't even confirm is enough, because there were so many people who kept saying 'they're just friends!' the creators had to step in. As much as I like the idea of Korrasami, its execution was an awkward mess.

And using that awkwardness, we elegantly jump to Japan, were things are weird in a different way, the big elephant in the room being, of course, the boys love genre. Male-male romances primarily created and consumed by heterosexual women. While there are rare titles that could be seen as representative, these works mostly serve as a way for women to play with gender. With no female characters around, readers and creators are free to shed the confines of their gender role, and attribute male and female gender aspects as they see fit, creating their own perfect fantasy couples. They can identify with either one of the male characters, or enjoy the relationship as an onlooker. Freedom in fiction. This is entirely different from actual gay fiction produced and consumed by gay men.

Female-female romances (yuri) have similar but different origins, dating back to fiction idealising pure relationships between girls, Takarazuka theatre and so on. Though here's it's harder to tell how much is made for and by gay women.

BL, gay fiction and yuri are seen as genres that exist outside of the mainstream manga market, but that doesn't mean you don't see gay relationships in more mainstream works. For instance, Fumi Yoshinaga's What Did You Eat Yesterday, a cooking manga about a middle aged gay couple, runs in a magazine aimed at young men. And wow, Yuri!!! on Ice is looking really promising. So, yay, representation! ... Maybe? Though it's not too difficult to find relatively realistic gay people in manga and anime, they're not the only ones bring the gay to anime.

Subtext is a thing. Many popular series leave some room for the imagination of the reader/viewer, so they can pair of characters to their liking. It's pretty obvious in series like Black Butler and Seraph of the End. And even if there's no subtext, many fans will gladly fantasise about the possibilities anyway. Put on your yaoi goggles and imagine a world where Aldnoah.Zero's Inaho and Slaine are just the cutest couple... despite the two trying to kill eachother on multiple occassions in canon.

Meanwhile, on television, crossdressing and homosexuality play yet another role. Charicatures and stereotypes meant to be entertaining are still common, and even the people who do identify as LGBT tend to be over the top. There is, again, a disconnect between real-life and entertainment. No wonder Persona 4's Kanji was struggling with his sexual identity...

And on top of that is the situation of actual gay people. While polls show younger generations are accepting of LGBT people, many older generations still frown upon them. However, unlike in the US (and Europe) this has nothing to do with religion. They don't feel homosexuality as a sin, but as an irresponsible lifestyle. To them, LGBT people are refusing to play the role society needs them to play: settle down and have children. Hate crimes are practically unheard of. And while LGBT people are working to gain more right, this doesn't involve protests or parades. Most progress is made through regular political routes.

...

Yay, episode 7 was really cute?

In most cases, genre deconstructions end up in depressing bloodbaths, and yes, that doesn't really go for One-Punch Man and Mob Psycho 100, but One does do what a deconstruction is supposed to do: he takes the common tropes, plays them straight and sees where is goes from there. The biggest difference with most deconstructive titles is that he makes comedies out of it.

Look at Saitama. He's like early Superman: so strong, saving the day is matter of just showing up. Unlike early Superman, this actually affects him emotionally. His life feels empty and his emotions are blunted.

Yeah, deconstruction doesn't need to be bloody but it needs to be critical of the genre and I can't really see it in OPM and MOB, Saitama feels empty and the first episodes do follow on that but he seems to get much better afterwards after spending some time with the rest of the cast. If anything it sometimes reconstructs the genre as the case with Kamen Biker (at least I think it was his name) and the green haired girl's sister that pretty much glorifies the rank system as even the weak heroes can help.[/quote]

Good points. Looking at it that way, I think One does bits of both: deconstructing in order to reconstruct. Whereas many other titles see deconstruction more as a method of destruction. And while destruction can be interesting in its own right, there have been to many titles lately that deconstruct for the sake of being grim and gritty.

 

[TheMysteriousGX]

As for female heroes, either you watched shitty anime or you don't regard any none mary sue female character as a good character. Shit, One Punch Man has couple of great female characters.

And yeah, OPM has some great female characters in it;

Wait, are you talking about the web series or did I miss some characters in the anime?

Because I counted all of two female characters (outside of NPCs), and one of them was that mosquito lady that introduced Genos.