Magic in oblivion and skyrim-Which was better for pure mages?

[AntiChri5]

Oblivion's far simpler spells allowed you to make your own custom ones, while Skyrim has a far greater variety of spell designs but at the expense of spellmaking.

Personally, i prefer Skyrim's system. Spellmaking was fun and all, but at the end of the day it's just changing some numbers. As opposed to Skyrim, in which different spells actually FEEL different.

Additionally, i prefer the storyline of the mages College in Skyrim to that of the mages Guild in Oblivion. Mostly because the guilds's storyline has far less mystery and is far less flexible. Ever tried playing the mages guild questline as a hardcore necromancer?

 

[AntiChri5]

The one problem with Skyrim mages (at least at release, haven't played it since) is that magic scales like crap. What does that mean? It means that a spell does a set amount of damage and that's it. It doesn't improve much with levels (some perks and items provide some boosts), while weapon damage can get to insane levels once you start upgrading your items, enchanting them, etc. As a result, mages at higher levels would wind up slowly wearing enemies down, while fighters and rogues would just start swinging with their fully upgraded Deadric swords and 2-shot dragons (1-shot with a decent sneak attack).

The one problem with Oblivion's mages is that they are stuck in a crappy game. Granted, this is more down to the fact that I hate Oblivion and think it's the worst entry in the series...

Comparing a deadric sword to the middle range destruction spells isn't really fair, imo. You have to compare them to a spell like Lightning Storm (is that what the master level lightning spell is called? I barely remember). That is definitely less "slowly wearing down" enemies.

 

[Jandau]

The one problem with Skyrim mages (at least at release, haven't played it since) is that magic scales like crap. What does that mean? It means that a spell does a set amount of damage and that's it. It doesn't improve much with levels (some perks and items provide some boosts), while weapon damage can get to insane levels once you start upgrading your items, enchanting them, etc. As a result, mages at higher levels would wind up slowly wearing enemies down, while fighters and rogues would just start swinging with their fully upgraded Deadric swords and 2-shot dragons (1-shot with a decent sneak attack).

The one problem with Oblivion's mages is that they are stuck in a crappy game. Granted, this is more down to the fact that I hate Oblivion and think it's the worst entry in the series...

Comparing a deadric sword to the middle range destruction spells isn't really fair, imo. You have to compare them to a spell like Lightning Storm (is that what the master level lightning spell is called? I barely remember). That is definitely less "slowly wearing down" enemies.

Please point to the part of my post where I mentioned a "middle range destruction spell" to anything. I was talking about spell damage in general. And even top tier destruction spells hit like wet noodles in comparison to top level weapons.

It's a simple mathematical fact - melee combat has access to more numerical multipliers, meaning the values eventually get much higher, while spell damage is much more flat and baseline. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if high-end weapons were hard to come by, but as it stands, they are easy to get and upgrade to insane levels.

 

[AntiChri5]

The one problem with Skyrim mages (at least at release, haven't played it since) is that magic scales like crap. What does that mean? It means that a spell does a set amount of damage and that's it. It doesn't improve much with levels (some perks and items provide some boosts), while weapon damage can get to insane levels once you start upgrading your items, enchanting them, etc. As a result, mages at higher levels would wind up slowly wearing enemies down, while fighters and rogues would just start swinging with their fully upgraded Deadric swords and 2-shot dragons (1-shot with a decent sneak attack).

The one problem with Oblivion's mages is that they are stuck in a crappy game. Granted, this is more down to the fact that I hate Oblivion and think it's the worst entry in the series...

Comparing a deadric sword to the middle range destruction spells isn't really fair, imo. You have to compare them to a spell like Lightning Storm (is that what the master level lightning spell is called? I barely remember). That is definitely less "slowly wearing down" enemies.

Please point to the part of my post where I mentioned a "middle range destruction spell" to anything. I was talking about spell damage in general. And even top tier destruction spells hit like wet noodles in comparison to top level weapons.

It's a simple mathematical fact - melee combat has access to more numerical multipliers, meaning the values eventually get much higher, while spell damage is much more flat and baseline. This wouldn't be as much of an issue if high-end weapons were hard to come by, but as it stands, they are easy to get and upgrade to insane levels.

You didn't, i inferred it from the fact that you said "slowly wearing enemies down". A mid range destruvtion spell will force you to, yes, but Lightning Storm and it's contemparies, while not as good for quick up-close high damage as a very high level melee weapon, are more potent then you make them seem. Especially as they have the base ability to sap a targets mana or stamina and allow you to stay at range or target multiple foes via AoE.

Basically, i am agreeing with your central point (lack of scaling isn't kind to magic at very high levels) but disagreeing with the extent of the gulf.

 

[Flammablezeus]

As somebody who played as a pure mage in both games, I think Skyrim is better overall. It offers more effects and makes for a lot of variety during combat, if you take advantage of a wide array of spells. However, in practice, a lot of your spells aren't greatly effective, because they don't get stronger as your magic skills rise. So you'll find yourself using certain spells even though you might want the effects from another type of spell. That is where Oblivion shined. With the ability to craft spells, you could mix and match things just the way you wanted. It was often fair with the magicka use too, since any overpowered spells would often leave you dry, as they should.

I feel like it can be improved. I don't think magic has really been done right yet in Elder Scrolls, but I've still had fun playing the games that way. I really hope things get improved for the next one.

 

[Gatx]

It's a give and take. Magic in Oblivion was a lot less fun to use, but you could create your own spells and there were a lot more conjuration spells.

Magic is a viable main combat form in Skyrim and there are a lot more clever and varied spell effects (like the zombie conjuration spell literally raises a corpse rather than summons a zombie, though that might be related to their not being "zombies" in the game) and placing mines, but the lack of a spell creation system is definitely a bit loss for me.

Also, nothing against Skyrim, but when they announced the ability to use your left and right hand spells in tandem for special effects, I was imagining all kinds of cool things, Magicka like things, like conjuring a fire sword by using the conjure sword spell in one hand and a flame spell in the other so I was very disappointed that it was only to boost certain spells after you got a perk.

 

[Tanis]

I'd go with Morrowind myself.

In Oblivion magic is more of an add-on, a good add-on, but it's a bit lacking without modding.

In Skyrim magic is fine as defensive, but as offensive it's hard to play straight mage.

 

[Flammablezeus]

It's a give and take. Magic in Oblivion was a lot less fun to use, but you could create your own spells and there were a lot more conjuration spells.

Magic is a viable main combat form in Skyrim and there are a lot more clever and varied spell effects (like the zombie conjuration spell literally raises a corpse rather than summons a zombie, though that might be related to their not being "zombies" in the game) and placing mines, but the lack of a spell creation system is definitely a bit loss for me.

Also, nothing against Skyrim, but when they announced the ability to use your left and right hand spells in tandem for special effects, I was imagining all kinds of cool things, Magicka like things, like conjuring a fire sword by using the conjure sword spell in one hand and a flame spell in the other so I was very disappointed that it was only to boost certain spells after you got a perk.

They did make it out to be more like Magicka before-hand. I recall a Bethesda rep (or even Todd Howard himself, I'm not sure) saying that when you mixed two flames spells (the flamethrower one) you'd get a fireball or something. They did also mention that mixing different things would have different effects. It's like how they talked about economy and characters having family (killing a quest giver would be fine because another family member would then have the quest for you.) It was nothing more than an outright lie.

I'd go with Morrowind myself.

In Oblivion magic is more of an add-on, a good add-on, but it's a bit lacking without modding.

In Skyrim magic is fine as defensive, but as offensive it's hard to play straight mage.

As much as magic can be improved in Skyrim, the difficulty alone wasn't an issue for me. It SHOULD be hard to play as a mage, considering how much power is supposed to be at their fingertips. The destruction spells really do need to scale with the destruction skill though, as their damage does get laughably low the higher you level up. I really didn't like the master-level spells either, but that's just because of the mechanics of them combined with the lack of variety.

 

[SajuukKhar]

They did make it out to be more like Magicka before-hand. I recall a Bethesda rep (or even Todd Howard himself, I'm not sure) saying that when you mixed two flames spells (the flamethrower one) you'd get a fireball or something. They did also mention that mixing different things would have different effects. It's like how they talked about economy and characters having family (killing a quest giver would be fine because another family member would then have the quest for you.) It was nothing more than an outright lie.

Spell combining was something that appeared in Bethesda's game jam video, which came out after Skyrim released, and which Todd Howard said might appear in future DLC, but he also said stuff from the game jam might not also.

 

[matrix3509]

Magic in Skyrim, to put it bluntly, is shit. If you just want to kill shit and not sit there with your thumb up your ass waiting for enemies to kill each other, you have exactly 3 options. Fire, ice, and lightning, and fire spells are always the cheapest in mana so there is zero reason to use the others until you get to Master level destruction. Even worse, the higher level destruction spells come with a forced AOE element thats more liable to get your followers killed than to actually kill your enemy. You can solve this be not taking along a follower, but then you run into the double shit sandwich of spells doing absolute fuck-all damage because damage doesn't scale with your magic level, AND you can't kite like you could in Oblivion.

Also, the spell variety in Skyrim is just fucking inexcusably godawful.

 

[Flammablezeus]

They did make it out to be more like Magicka before-hand. I recall a Bethesda rep (or even Todd Howard himself, I'm not sure) saying that when you mixed two flames spells (the flamethrower one) you'd get a fireball or something. They did also mention that mixing different things would have different effects. It's like how they talked about economy and characters having family (killing a quest giver would be fine because another family member would then have the quest for you.) It was nothing more than an outright lie.

Spell combining was something that appeared in Bethesda's game jam video, which came out after Skyrim released, and which Todd Howard said might appear in future DLC, but he also said stuff from the game jam might not also.

I'm talking pre-release. I can't be bothered trying to find something so specific from then though, so I can't really offer any links. I can't remember if it was from a video or an article. I'm certain I at least recall it being mentioned that mixing two flamethrower spells would make a fireball or something along those lines.

 

[CannibalCorpses]

Well, i've just been playing some mage things through on skyrim and i've got to say that magic is piss poor when playing on legendary difficulty. The spells don't seem to do much damage, even with 100 in all the skills and most of the perks. The conjuration tree is amazing when you're low level and the dremora lord is pretty good at middle levels but the thralls are more hassle than they are worth and have caused me many problems when entering small areas. Restoration is ok but you take so much damage that it becomes a battle to hold onto life while not really responding with anything that will win you the battle. I generally have to rely on my stealth skills to stay alive and have run out of areas or jumped into safe areas to gain enough space to have any chance of victory. The mage armour spells are terrible compared to wearing armour and the wards are straight worthless unless you have free casting costs. Runes are a good idea but aren't that effective...unless it's an enemy rune and then it's like standing on a land mine. Illusion and alteration magic are odd because they cap out on creatures that are weaker than you end up fighting past level 40.

One overpowered combination i've found is stealth 100 and the perk that makes magic soundless...i can literally sneak into a dark spot and fireball people until they die and they don't react. It's a good job because a death lord takes somewhere between 20-30 dual-cast attacks to die. But when i compare that to dragonbone dagger sneak attack doing nearly 5000 damage and insta-killing pretty much anything my opinion of skyrim magic is pretty poor.

 

[Eclectic Dreck]

It's hard to say. Oblivion offered tremendous flexibility with it's magic system but creating devastating spells was problematic to say the least. Not only was it staggeringly expensive (even for a character rolling in cash), it also quickly produced spells that an elite magic user could only hope to cast once without chugging a lot of mana potions. By contrast, Skyrim has a very limited spell system but in many ways makes up for it by making each spell fairly unique. Not only that, spells were also substantially more powerful and required more active participation from the user and it was actually quite easy to cast cataclysmic spells repeatedly.

Being a pure magic user in Oblivion was difficult to say the least and while it offers some challenges in Skyrim thanks to the fact spells basically come in tiers and you might not find an appropriate tier spell in a timely fashion, magic finally became a viable primary weapon. Indeed, some of the most powerful spells were not direct combat spells at all. Beating the game with nothing but conjuration and illusion is trivial and probably one of the easiest ways to play.