Marines posed with Nazi SS symbol in Afghanistan

[Cpu46]

I think if you want to remove the power a symbol has then use it for another purpose. I fully support that Scout Sniper group's use of that symbol.

Al for stripping the power from evil but since it was designed by them for that use i say let it die in history. Designed to stand as it did for its designed purpose and so let it fall as such. Instead of using that symbol i say let it die.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sig_(rune)

Thank you for that link, I learned a lot. It has shifted my stance but not very far.

Someone noticed how closely the Sig rune, an ancient rune for victory and the sun, resembled an S and put two of them next to each other because the name of the group he was in contained two S's.

To be honest I don't see why the guy who did it second should be punished and have to remove it. Sure the first guy was part of a horrid organization and chose to use it as the organizations symbol. However it isn't like the first guy made an abstract doodle and had it used and these marines are suddenly using the same doodle. In that case I would agree and say remove it.

 

[colourcodedchaos]

Oh wow, the US military is full of idiots. In other news, the Pope has denied rumours of a conversion to Methodism and when asked what it was doing, a bear in the woods said "Do you mind? I'm kind of in the middle of something. Also, nip down the Spar, will you, we're out of paper." Need I remind everyone that this is an army that routinely shoots both civilians and its own allies, horrifically tortured prisoners of war and tried to weasel their way out of it by saying that the people they'd imprisoned for fighting against them during a war weren't prisoners of war, and is large enough to be a voting demographic. All the apologists can take their half-arsed excuses for inexcusable behaviour and crawl back into whichever foetid little ratholes they came from. They're easy enough to find; look for the ones with pictures of guns on the walls and a pair of tweezers marked "For Jacking Off With."

 

[Elementary - Dear Watson]

Yes, that's their symbol since the 80s. That doesn't change the fact that its an offensive logo that should be replaced.

Apparently it's not an official logo, it's just something soldiers started using in their own posters, badges and tattoos. Commandant General Amos (head of the USMC) responded to this by calling for everyone in the corps to be made aware that they shouldn't use the symbol again, and the particular guys in question have apparently agreed. No further disciplinary action is likely.

That's enough for me, actually. I'm far more pissed off with the military fanboys and armchair generals trying to justify this than I am with the soldiers themselves, though it seems truly, monumentally stupid that this got past so many people.

But I can't speak for everyone, I can promise that there will be some people who will have shed quite understandable tears over this. I can't expect those people to be as forgiving.

What about real military justifying it? Are we in the clear?

The military have always used imagery, unofficially throughout history... Look at British Submarines in WWII, they flew Jolly Rogers instead of the Union Jack as they enterd port, with symbols to show how many ships/boats they destroyed and pillaged. Sounds very unjustified, using the symbols of people who scoured the seas, raping and pillaging, but they still did it... it happens! It will probably stop now, and our Ethics and Diversity lessons that we have annually with therefore be lengthened, and our list of words and symbols that we are not allowed to say/use will be extended. And we will get on with our lives, and carry on doing the jobs we do best.

Meanwhile Terry Taliban and the blooming media will carry on dragging this out, putting it in different lights and making it much bigger than it actually is.
I'm not saying it's not bad, i'm just saying it is not as big a deal as some of you seem to have jumped to!

Oh, and on a side note, our bases have tailors on, it is perfectly reasonable that it could be hand made.

 

[anthony87]

It's the Scout Sniper logo. End of discussion.

Yeah. It's defintely the Scout Sniper logo.

So how come the flag had this:

http://starbuck.home.uit.no/ekran/nazismexposed/local/images/symbols/ss_flag_s.png

The two images here are clearly different.

Is this actually a rebuttal?

It's not like you can just order Scout Sniper logos from amazon while you're in Afghanistan. What you have there is probably a promptu flag, either hastily found on google images, or MADE by one of the Marines.

Are you expecting some detailed work of art? A flag maker to be cattering to the every whim of every unit in the military?

The two images are NOT that different. You're being difficult (or you're bringing your predispositions into the discussion - most likely anti military).

EDIT: Oh wait, you're Italian.. you're probably just anti American. nevermind...

The images ARE that different. The only thing that they both have in common is the "SS" looking symbol.

The "SS" flag has ONLY that-a big white "SS" looking symbol.

The Scout Sniper one has the writing, the skull, the guns arranged in a cross formation, the crosshairs and numbers over the "SS" looking part.

Clear differences. If a Marine made it, why not use the same colour scheme? Why not have the words "Scout Sniper"? Why not put the crosshairs over the "SS" symbol? Don't get me wrong now, I do in fact think that it was an honest mistake but mistake or no, the flag they're posing with IS an SS flag.

I'm not anti-military or anti-American. However I am anti-moron. Something that you proved you are just now by saying I'm Italian.

I'm IRISH you fool. Learn to read a flag before you try bringing nationality into a discussion.

No, this is the difference between Europe, who had to deal with those douchebags in house and therefore knows there flags super well, and Americans who came in at the end and finished the fight.

while we all know the swatzitia is bad news the dual S thingy isn't that well known over here.

on top of that the flag is blue instead of the red, white, and black we associate with the Natizs.

and on top of that the S is in the same font as it is on their logo. Its an honest mistake.

also, as a man with no clear homeland (I'm black and no, an entire super diverse continent does not count), i really hope you can keep your ethics out of it, they add nothing to the conversation.

All you've done with your post is show that you didn't properly read the preceding posts properly as well as show that you think too much of the American involvment in World War II. I mean..."Americans who came in at the end and finished the fight." Really? You mean vaporizing the fuck out of Japanese civilians is finishing a fight? Although that's not really relevant to this thread.

Anyways, if you'd actually read the preceding posts instead of just picking out words to justify your post, you'd see that I already said I think the whole flag thing is an honest mistake....

I do in fact think that it was an honest mistake but mistake or no, the flag they're posing with IS an SS flag.

See?

Brushing aside the fact that your point about ethics was kinda contradictory seeing as how you being black adds nothing to the conversation, it was the dude who quoted me who brought my up nationality as well as me being anti-this and anti-that.

I'm not anti-anything. I don't give two shits if the flag was intentional or not. Maybe the dude thought "SS stands for Scout Sniper so this would make a cool flag" or maybe he's just a ****. Either way, for all intents and purposes, it IS an SS flag. No two ways about it.

 

[Darkmantle]

I didn't recognize the SS symbol, and it looks REALLY close to the kiss logo. Probably just a mistake. Not a big deal.

 

[forthefries]

Marines do not tend to be the students that worked hard and paid attention. While I'm not saying they're all morons I am saying its possible for a good number of them to never cared about learning about these things. I find this stuff interesting but it dosent improve job skills or life skills in anyway so I find it understandable when many people care more about other things. In these guys case hitting a target at long range.

Could be an honest mistake or not. Most likely never know for sure.

These sweeping generalizations seem to be rather widespread for people who seem to think they've got half a brain. People are people.

 

[Asita]

Honestly, I'm more taken aback at the public reaction than the picture itself.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm no history major, and given the lack of emphasis on the Schutzstaffel in history classes, I would actually say it is unsurprising that I would not have drawn the parallel between the Scout Sniper's SS and Nazi Germany had it not been pointed out to me. I'm not ashamed to admit that "Iconography of the Third Reich" was not a core part of my curriculum, nor was it ever truly addressed in those courses that dealt with the World War II era. No, the focus in those classes was the precursors to Hitler's rise to power, Nazi Germany's policies, and the major events of the war itself. Perhaps it is for that reason that I have little trouble believing that for the most part, the soldiers in question could have been similarly unaware.

What disgusts me, however, is the over-the-top reaction that followed. The "too stupid to be let near weapons" responses in particular come off as a particularly egregious knee-jerk reaction. Seriously people, are we really going to imply that knowledge of a particular symbol, and/or taste in using it is an indicator of their overall intelligence or competence? In a worst case scenario, you could say their usage was in incredibly poor taste, but that of course is somewhat complicated by the use of the symbol by the Scout Snipers for decades now, probably for longer than most posters in this thread have been alive, to say nothing of the current generation of the Marine Corps (82% are 30 years old or younger). But to insist they are unfit for duty because of their use of that flag? That reeks of being an unreasonable knee-jerk reaction that I'd put on par with Million Moms' objection to Ellen DeGeneres. I can respect the fact that people find the use tasteless. I can respect them saying the use of that flag insults the corps itself. I cannot respect people using this as a sounding board to question their overall ability. Faux Pas? Sure. Litmus test for intelligence? No.

 

[CleverCover]

No, I see a group of either racist fuckwads or people who honestly saw a cool symbol and thought to pose with it. And it's more likely the latter.

I've never seen this symbol before in all my years of history class and I'm a freaking history major. Someone should have been intelligent enough to see this picture and question the symbol but instead they assumed it meant something cool. That says more about how nobody thought the symbol was important enough to waste a class day on.

What I want to know is where did they find the symbol? Who had it stashed underneath his/her bed? >.>

 

[Zeldias]

The real question to ask is this: if we know that there's a Sniper Scout (or scout sniper, whatever) logo that involves crosshairs and a bunch of other stuff, why didn't they opt for having that made or something instead of just getting only the SS part?

I would think that if they really wanted it to be a Sniper Scout flag, they would've found it fairly bare and incomplete-looking. I mean, let's say these guys don't know about the SS somehow and don't know the iconography there. Let's say they really did want it to just represent Sniper Scouts; why use a flag that lacks so much of the rest of the iconography? Laziness? That's hard to buy when they're all "FUCK YEAH SNIPER SCOUTS."

But even if it was laziness, it still suggests to me that there's issues somewhere in the military, because I feel like someone would've figured this out. I can't buy that the US education system is that decrepit and shit that no one in the military knows enough history to have stopped and been like "Hm, wait a sec, guys."

And if it is meant to represent the SS, are you surprised? We have folks disrespecting the dead blatantly and a culture that's trying to push the military as some kind of divine entity in which joining means that you can't be questioned and everyone must support you unilaterally. I can see that feeding a culture that thinks it's alright to piss on the dead and pretend to be the SS.

In any case, it's inexcusable. Ignorance doesn't keep one from being prosecuted in a court of law, and from what I understand from my friends in the service, military laws and regulations tend to be stricter than that.

Also sick of the shit people are saying like "Grow up" and "Symbols don't mean anything." Let's me know how privileged your position is.

 

[3 legged goat]

They have been using that since the 80s? After WW2? Really?

 

[mirasiel]

I would just like to point out that this:

has been in use for a bit now.

Shhhh honey, no one wants pesky things like facts getting in the way of a good hate bukkake.

Nevermind that its been a long honored military tradition to kick some ones ass in a battle and take their prized symbol/flag/motto/standard and make it you own.

Its like the best "fuck you not dead guys...and fuck your dead buddies too" ever

 

[BlumiereBleck]

Not the same symbol... but close.

The horizontal lines aren't the same. The German SS has a slant on all of them, those are straight/level.

Spoiler

EDIT: Plus, it sounds like the USMC have been using it since the 80's. Since, you know, it's not like Nazis invented Armanen runes, the Anglo-Saxon Sigel, or the letter S.

*yawns

Wake me up when Thor takes back his swastika...

Thank you!!

Seriously folks, compare the Schtuzstaffel's SS to this SS! Different styles and colors! Goodness!

 

[LetalisK]

Looks more like the Kiss logo to me...!

And they didn't say they thought it meant that... they said their SS meant sniper scout... Sounds like you have right and truely jumpend on the media over exaggeration already...!

Oh, and my me sticking my middle finger at them I'm not saying Fuck you. No no no.

No, to me it means "Good job boys". Yeah, that's it...

Because symbols have universal meaning, right? I doubt the Marines weren't somehow cognizant of what it may have been tied to, but that is a horrible counter-argument.

Don't try to bullshit anyone. An army group, especially the marines, who fought in that exact same war which incidentally was the last time we could undeniably call ourselves the good guys, know what that symbol means.

There are 10 people there. 10 soldiers who undergo some of the toughest training the US military has to offer. You can't become a sniper by being as dull-witted as that.

They know full well what that symbol means.

You're not saying anything I disagreed with. I was discussing a tangential issue with Pimppeter. He made a good point to my response to him, so I backed off.

 

[nackertash]

It's all about intent. They did it as a joke. Not because they fully intend on slaughtering jews or whatever people think it implies. Relax.

 

[3 legged goat]

Anyway, while I still think people using a swastica as a personal symbol and claiming it has nothing to do with Nationalism is just tactless and stupid, I don't think we should go so far as to get upset over the sniper scouts using "SS." Hell, when I type SS into google, the first thing that comes up is social security. Come on people, don't you think this is just silly?

It isn't that they used SS as much as it is the font. Tons of things have SS initials. Social Security is one of those, but I don't think you would see a social security website having that as their logo. And for the "Swastikas mean different things and SS means Sniper Scout" it is bad because of what it is associated with. Gay used to mean happy, but you don't see too many people walking around saying, "You sure are gay!" and not getting in trouble. Sure they might mean it as a good thing, but it means something else now.

Also for the guy who was saying that they intended it as Sniper Scouts and said that I was jumping the gun, the article I originally got it from was my newspaper and thus the two articles differed. I didn't bother to read through it all again. My newspaper said that they didn't know what it was calling back to and just thought it looked cool.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

This just in, the military attracts a fair number of stupid, uneducated, racist individuals who idolize murderous zealots like the Waffen SS. I'm sorry I don't believe them for a moment when they claim ignorance...the nazi symbolism, the crusader sysmbolism, the old testament passages engaved on the reciever of their rifles, whatever it may be, these guys are expressing their moronic beliefs, they know exactly what it represents. I don't think it is something that is an epidemic in the US military, but denying the existence of these sub-cultures is clinging to naive nationalism.

The brass of this unit should reprimand these guys out of honor to the US and Allied scout-snipers who fought all those bloodthirsty SS fuckers.

Next thing you know these guys are going to claim that they enjoy watching Schindler's List because as a scout-sniper they admire Amon Göth's marksmanship...geez

 

[3 legged goat]

It's all about intent. They did it as a joke. Not because they fully intend on slaughtering jews or whatever people think it implies. Relax.

So if someone walked up to you and said, "I think we should kill all black people", but later told you that it was a joke, you would be okay with it?

 

[teknoarcanist]

Ha ha. All these people who have never done anything for their country stumbling over one another to heap righteous indignation on some Marines.

I'm not saying it's right. I'm just saying. "OH MY GOD LOOK AT THAT I'M SO OFFENDED" is a bit of self-indulgence.