Marines posed with Nazi SS symbol in Afghanistan

[EHKOS]

"Weinstein of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation."

...I lol'd a little.

OT:I would like to think they are defying our government and saying that America is turning into Nazi Germany, because we are killing enemy troops for oil....I would like to think that but they are prolly just idiots.

 

[NightHawk21]

IMO, they weren't doing it to be cruel or anything, they're just really stupid and ignorant. I group people like this in the same group that I put in teenagers that play too much cod. They think hey this will be cool (not thinking through the ramifications or what not) and then putting a nazi sign in their emblem thinking their cool and edgy. Just stupid people being stupid.

 

[Malyc]

Who cares, it's just a symbol, with a different meaning. Stupid nazis ruined so many good things, still that never stopped my english teacher from using hitlers moustache, that doesn't mean that hes a nazi.

He can always claim it's a Charlie Chaplin 'stache.

Besides, as I explained earlier, saying "it's just a symbol" is wrong for every possible reason. Try showing that flag to a jewish survivor, and then telling him "hey, it's just a symbol". I'd love to see that.

I'm enough of an asshole that I'm tempted to accept that challenge...

OT: Meh, I find myself not giving a shit about them posing in front of a flag with 2 S's on it. (Yes, I do know that that symbol is that of the SS) If they want to give that symbol a different meaning, that's their right, as protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution, just as it is your right to argue with them about it.

*climbs back into cave and makes a pot of coffee*

EDIT: Also, I'm curious as to how many pages this damned thing is gonna go on... I'm betting 15, any takers?

*puts 3 cookies into the pot*

 

[Thistlehart]

Sorry, that is what the Marine Corps. PR department is saying after the media got hold of the image and starting throwing unflattering accusations and assumptions into the public eye. Of course they're trying to re-spin this whole fiasco and make denials.

I'm talking about what may have actually happened; what thoughts and ideas may have caused the picture to be taken, and that flag to be used, in the first place. Not what the talking heads are saying now. Pay no attention to the big shouty green head fight in front of you.

Fine. Then let them come out from behind the head and speak for themselves. I equate their silence with acceptance. If they don't want their PR department to represent them, they can represent themselves. Cowering behind the skirts of bureaucracy does not impress me.

I would totally buy that they are wresting this symbol away from a long-dead regime as loot from a war they never fought in for their own use, if only they'd say it. So let them say it.

And now let's ask: why is this a fiasco? Didn't they want to be pictured with an SS flag? They posed for the shot and everything; this isn't like they were caught accidentally wandering in front of big American-flag-and-SS-logo display that just happened to be there.

I agree wholeheartedly. I think if the story is different, the soldiers should step forward and say so.

However, your assertion that they are "hiding" behind the PR spin is, I think, unfair and hasty. They are soldiers. If their superiors order them to shut up and accept the story, that's what they will do. They cannot come out, at the moment, and say anything different from the Marine Corps. stance. They could possibly end up court martialed if they did not comply.

This is a fiasco because someone got butthurt over the picture and took it to the press, who in turn saw the opportunity to sell lots of ad space at the expense of some soldiers' integrity.

What the soldiers intended and what has resulted are two different things. History tells us this. Just look at the flag.

 

[Malyc]

Who cares, it's just a symbol, with a different meaning. Stupid nazis ruined so many good things, still that never stopped my english teacher from using hitlers moustache, that doesn't mean that hes a nazi.

He can always claim it's a Charlie Chaplin 'stache.

Besides, as I explained earlier, saying "it's just a symbol" is wrong for every possible reason. Try showing that flag to a jewish survivor, and then telling him "hey, it's just a symbol". I'd love to see that.

I'm enough of an asshole that I'm tempted to accept that challenge...

OT: Meh, I find myself not giving a shit about them posing in front of a flag with 2 S's on it. (Yes, I do know that that symbol is that of the SS) If they want to give that symbol a different meaning, that's their right, as protected by the First Amendment of the Constitution, just as it is your right to argue with them about it.

*climbs back into cave and makes a pot of coffee*

EDIT: Also, I'm curious as to how many pages this damned thing is gonna go on... I'm betting 15, any takers?

*puts 3 cookies into the pot*

I will see your three cookies and raise you another, I say 7 pages!

-7 cookies in the pot for 7 pages!-

I shall call your bluff, sir!

*stares suspiciously at while adding 4 more cookies*

 

[Veylon]

Sidenote: There is a town in Ontario Canada that is named Swastika. It was incorporated in 1908 and named after the gold mine established in 1907 that supported the town.

Should we demand that the town change its name because it could be offense to someone?

Point of order: the town was established in 1907. The Nazi party didn't exist yet. World War I hadn't happened yet, let alone World War II. People offended by Swastika, Ontario have no right to demand anything against that town. If a town changed it's name to Swastika nowadays, I'd have serious questions about that.

Why? Does it time really matter. If the people in the town are not Nazi supporters does it really matter, what they call their town.

No objections to Burning Cross as a town name, then? Usually, towns are named for someone admirable, such as Elkader, Iowa, or an important event or item of local importance.

I'm not saying Swatstika should be banned as a town name (heck, I live near a township named Adolph, after all), I'd just want to know why. If it was an Indian or Buddhist group where that's been their symbol for ages, fine. Maybe they uncovered a nearby big rock with a Swatstika on it that's become the local tourist attraction point. There are valid reasons. I just wouldn't want to see a town established as a hotbed of unrepentent Nazis.

 

[Navvan]

From my experience in the US education system the Nazi SS symbol is never mentioned, or pictured in any of the textbooks. Seems like a plausible mistake

 

[Sylveria]

Honest mistake my ass.

This is completely despicable. I like how the defense is 'They're marines, they wouldn't knowingly do that'. What does that even mean? I didn't realize the US military force was now considered to be infallible. I think they should've at least sent out a memo, or something.

The US military is infallible, The Escapist told me so.

 

[Saltyk]

I hereby direct you to terminal lance... my favorite webcomic

http://terminallance.com/2012/02/10/terminal-lance-insspiration/

This argument could go on forever

Thanks for that link. I've been reading a bunch of the comics on that site.

 

[Veylon]

However, your assertion that they are "hiding" behind the PR spin is, I think, unfair and hasty. They are soldiers. If their superiors order them to shut up and accept the story, that's what they will do. They cannot come out, at the moment, and say anything different from the Marine Corps. stance. They could possibly end up court martialed if they did not comply.

This is a fiasco because someone got butthurt over the picture and took it to the press, who in turn saw the opportunity to sell lots of ad space at the expense of some soldiers' integrity.

Okay. So the Marine Corps is throwing it's people under the bus. They are going along with this to avoid being thrown under the bus. I also have to wonder where these superiors were doing when this picture was being taken.

"Hey Captain? You mind if we order an SS flag and pose dramatically in front of it in a way that strong suggests we have Nazi sympathies?"
"Sure, whatever. Just don't provide any context or explanation so that the rest of us can hang you our to dry save our skins when the press shitstorm hits."
"Thanks, boss, you're the best!"

Also, the only reason this picture can deprive the soldiers of integrity is because they've deliberately chosen to use a symbol that represents total depravity and lack of integrity. If they'd picked a picture of a bald eagle smoking a cigar while punching a camel wearing a turban (you know, something normal), nobody'd be talking about it now, no matter how butthurt the person sending the picture was or how greedy the press is for ad revenue.

What the soldiers intended and what has resulted are two different things. History tells us this. Just look at the flag.

What? You mean which is on the top and which on the bottom?

 

[BiscuitTrouser]

Honest mistake my ass.

This is completely despicable. I like how the defense is 'They're marines, they wouldn't knowingly do that'. What does that even mean? I didn't realize the US military force was now considered to be infallible. I think they should've at least sent out a memo, or something.

Its not that they are considered to be infallible its that, even if they DID love hitler, posing for a photo like that on purpose is fucking social suicide. It RUINS you, RUINS the image of everything associated with you and you are forever branded an outcast. Why would ANYONE knowingly do that to themselves. What did they have to gain? Why explain through random malice and masochism (i get a huge kick from doing random socially unnacceptable things to draw hate toward me... totally) what is VERY easily explained through idiocy. The statement that they are "infallible" is a straw man really, as the people you are claiming to say this are actually saying the marines did this because they were ignorant of the symbol. Last i checked idiocy was a pretty negative attribute.

I can tell right off the bat that is the SS symbol. But i can pretty much guarentee that this was either a mistake or an attempt to reclaim the symbol. The latter is... questionable... but not dispicable. The former needs to be remedied quickly. But to assume these men are sitting in their baracks right now saying "HMMMm yeahhhh people hate us because it looked like we love hitler, fuck yeah... hmmm that feels so good" is just silly. Why would they ENJOY or WANT to be publicly associated with that image even if they secretly were. Theres no reason behind it. I refuse to believe people would commit social suicide like this for kicks. Thus im gonna go with "They had no idea".

 

[Shock and Awe]

Is it me or are the marines the main ones doing stupid shit like this? But I digress...

While it was incredibly stupid to take pictures with an SS flag, I seriously doubt their motivation was because of race or anything similar. The fact is the Waffen SS were a seriously badass group of guys. Were they ideological dogs? Of course. But they were damn good soldiers as well, and I can't help but respect that and they probably felt similarly. I think the squad should get some kind of reprimand, but nothing as serious as a court marshal.

 

[Thistlehart]

What the soldiers intended and what has resulted are two different things. History tells us this. Just look at the flag.

What? You mean which is on the top and which on the bottom?

For a second there, I thought you had posted something really profound. Then I read it again.

When US soldiers display any flags, they display the US flag at the top. That's just tradition.

I meant to look at the SS flag. The Nazi party was allowed into power because it promised to restore the German economy and make Germany strong again in the wake of WWI. A rather good intention, wouldn't you say? What resulted was... well... that controversial flag is a relic (or replica, if you like) of that result. The intention and the result were two different things. No one could have predicted the results.

That is to what I was referring.

 

[KiloFox]

now for the record i in no way support nazi-ism and whatever... i wanna say this first because i'm gonna give some potentially controversial views in a moment and i don't wanna get flamed/crucified on here for stating an opinion...

anyway... while the soldiers were either asses about it or REALLY didn't know what the symbol meant... i still see it as a GOOD thing it was used... look at the picture without the historical baggage of the symbol being used to identify Nazi SS... it looks pretty damn good dosn't it? it's actually kinda a neat/cool symbol without the historical baggage on it. now symbols are like words... they ONLY have the power that we give them. the word "fuck" is only a "bad word" if people believe it as such, and cringe when it's used or refrain from using it. now i'm not saying to use (in this analogy) fuck in every sentence... but at that point where its baggage of being a "bad word/curse word" is lifted, then it's just any other normal word used to express various things (TANGENT: i think the word fuck is actually an amazing word because it can be used to express so many things and can fit in so many parts of speech... i mean it's a noun, and adjective, a verb, everything.. it's a truly amazing word, but that's beside the point) anyway... if we use symbols like these that have that historical baggage then we can eventually wash away that baggage and make the symbols "good" again. now it's harder to do than the inverse... but it's still possible... these symbols were originally used by people other than who they're associated with now... the pitchfork/trident used to symbolize Poseidon... Greek god of the sea. a god who was revered and respected because of his power over the oceans. now... it represents villainy and evil because it is now used to represent the devil. same with the pentagram. (5 pointed star in a circle) in the pagan faith, it represents equality and unity. balance, and harmony... on Tarot cards(and by extension the culture that created Tarot...) it was used to indicate wealth and success. now we view it as a satanic symbol meant to be feared. and the Swastika... yes... the very symbol of the Nazi regime... well it used to symbolize something else... now according to Wikipedia ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika ) the Hindu's used it to represent luck. hell the symbol was, in fact, SACRED... according to some sources Hitler knew this and used it on purpose either to bastardize the symbol, or to try and bring the symbol's power to benefit himself. (to bring him and his regime luck) so these symbols are only as "bad" as we make them... and if we release them from their bad historical baggage and start using them again in better context... then we can take that power away from them. and it becomes just another symbol... if we don't... then centuries from now... we may very well not have any symbols LEFT that we can use without being seen as "wrong" i can guarantee that eventually some "evil" thing will happen and try and conquer the world or something and you know what their symbol will be? the Christian Cross. then that symbol will be bastardized and shunned. and it WILL happen someday... probably not in our lifetimes, but someday. now we can either let this happen... or we can use these symbols freely and free them of that bad historical baggage so they can be used again. i say let the marines keep that symbol to represent them. they're (unknowingly or not) cleansing that symbol of its bad baggage and allowing it to be used once more... maybe in a few years, it will actually MEAN what they claimed to think it did...

now i have my own reasons for ranting on that... i happen to be Pagan and i quite enjoy the pentagram symbol that represents my faith... and i don't like every time someone sees it immediately associating me and Paganism with satanism... i'm trying to rid the pentagram of its bad baggage. i'd like other symbols to have the same done to them.

TL/DR: symbols, like words, are only as bad as we make them... if we freely use them, we make them powerless in that regard. let the marines use the symbol and detach it from the Nazi connection. and soon it may actually mean what they thought it did

 

[TheRookie8]

Looks more like the Kiss logo to me...!

And they didn't say they thought it meant that... they said their SS meant sniper scout... Sounds like you have right and truely jumpend on the media over exaggeration already...!

Oh, and my sticking my middle finger at them does not mean I'm saying Fuck you. No no no.

No, to me it means "Good job boys". Yeah, that's it...

According to civilians associated with the United States military services, the symbol is a well-known symbol for the Sniper Scouts, so we must assume that either the media or the military acted without thinking this event through.

Judging by the reactions to this article, people are already using the rage to fuel their own political agendas. I find that sad. I find it sad that the military cannot discipline some of its soldiers. I do not condemn the military, though. It has good women and men.

What bothers me is that Chapin did not the whereabouts of those particular Marines. YOU MUST KEEP THIS INFORMATION! This blows your credibility!

And, to wrap up, the middle finger does have multiple meanings in other cultures. Heck, the swastika only became applied to Nazi's when it was adopted by Adolf Hitler's forces.

Either these men knew what they were doing and were stupid enough to broadcast their relation with a hateful organization (I'm a little skeptical) or they made a dumb mistake and have no bad intentions. It's dumb either way, but if you need evidence of people making fools of themselves on the Internet...well...

 

[RoBi3.0]

Sidenote: There is a town in Ontario Canada that is named Swastika. It was incorporated in 1908 and named after the gold mine established in 1907 that supported the town.

Should we demand that the town change its name because it could be offense to someone?

Point of order: the town was established in 1907. The Nazi party didn't exist yet. World War I hadn't happened yet, let alone World War II. People offended by Swastika, Ontario have no right to demand anything against that town. If a town changed it's name to Swastika nowadays, I'd have serious questions about that.

Why? Does it time really matter. If the people in the town are not Nazi supporters does it really matter, what they call their town.

No objections to Burning Cross as a town name, then? Usually, towns are named for someone admirable, such as Elkader, Iowa, or an important event or item of local importance.

I'm not saying Swatstika should be banned as a town name (heck, I live near a township named Adolph, after all), I'd just want to know why. If it was an Indian or Buddhist group where that's been their symbol for ages, fine. Maybe they uncovered a nearby big rock with a Swatstika on it that's become the local tourist attraction point. There are valid reasons. I just wouldn't want to see a town established as a hotbed of unrepentent Nazis.

I have no objection the a town name Burning Cross. I understand were you are trying to say, but unless said town is actively spreading and acting on hatred then what they call their town is irrelevant.

I would hate to see a town founded by unrepentant Nazis and I suppose that could happen, but it is more likely not to. And you have to admit that a town named swastika is a really bad place to a group of unrepentant Nazis to hide.

Should we demand that the town change its name because it could be offense to someone?

So you're too dim-witted to differentiate between a town that was established a good quarter of a century before the Nazi version of the symbol - incidentally called something other than a swastika, read the thread - became widespread and the one that carries a lot of hatred that is still used by far-right groups to this day?

No, I feel I am the opposite of that, because I realize a few of things.

1)My thoughts, opinions, and beliefs are not the supreme authority on what is right and correct. no ones' is.

2) The sole determining factor to whither I or anyone else becomes offended is whither I or they choose to be offended.

3) Insulating someone's intelligence is not an effective way to construct an argument.

Furthermore, the swastika and Sig rune (what the thread was originally about) have existed for thousands of years before Nazi culture, and had very different meanings. Is it right to throw away thousand of years of symbolic meaning because of a handful of decades were the symbol was perverted to represent evil?

 

[Lionsfan]

Who cares, it's just a symbol, with a different meaning. Stupid nazis ruined so many good things, still that never stopped my english teacher from using hitlers moustache, that doesn't mean that hes a nazi.

He can always claim it's a Charlie Chaplin 'stache.

Besides, as I explained earlier, saying "it's just a symbol" is wrong for every possible reason. Try showing that flag to a jewish survivor, and then telling him "hey, it's just a symbol". I'd love to see that.

You're right, symbols do have meaning. Those stupid Americans, so ignorant and insensitive. I mean it's not like any European would be rude enough to dress in Nazi memorabilia, and then claim he didn't actually mean it, especially not a member of a political family or anything like that

Oh wait...