Marriage - Is it worth it?

[Khedive Rex]

Allow me to preface, I'm not married, have never been married, and don't plan to get married for a very long time (but I do plan to marry eventually).

That being said, marriage is an entirely unnessasary display of superiority. It's similar in mental processes (if admittedly not emotional processes) to deciding you're going to five-star the Devil Went Down to Georgia on the hardest difficulty. After you've done it, you haven't really gained anything but an adrenaline high and a sore arm and more over now just playing the regular game isn't as interesting because you feel like you're steping down a league for playing what you used to love. But hey, that adrenaline high was really exciting!

Why do humans look forward to marriage so much? I'm honestly not sure. I certainly intend to be married one day but I also certainly don't understand what all the fuss is about. I'm willing to guess this is the standard pattern in human society. If you've been on earth very long and your perceptive you quickly notice that humans are by far the weirdest, oddest, most contradictory creatures on it. We have the ability to think rationaly and plan ahead, we just choose to ignore it. It's more convenient if you don't have to think about it.

 

[Uglycat]

If you really are looking for an answer, I'd disregard any response from anyone who isn't married, (or at least hasn't been married at least once). This makes me sound elitist, but you don't ask non-swimmers what it's like to swim - you ask the fish (end of the dubious metaphor).

Firstly, humans need rituals, whether they be religious or social, a wedding is precisely that, a ritual understood by the community at large. It provides a type of social cement to a community, and also to you and your other half. An official declaration is part of this cementing. I cannot believe that standing up in front of a large group of people (whether religious or civil) has *no* psychical effect on how you view relationships and how you treat the other person (caveat - see next paragraph). It's been part of human society for as long as we have recorded history, but there's been a surge in the last 50 years of people who suddenly think that they can slough off social mores and escape the consequences, and the general downward trend in society must be attributed in some part, by the destruction of the nuclear family and a move towards the postmodern family. It's not a guarantee, but I think it's fairly inductive.

I'm reading a lot of people saying 'I don't need a piece of paper because our love is forever' etc., but this is missing the point. The fact is that 50% of marriages end in divorce, and the numbers for civil partnerships are pretty much the same (iirc), and they all thought their love would last forever; but that's because there's been a shift from love being an act of will, to love being a feeling you experience. The consequences of that are the 50% that don't work- your love (statistically) isn't going to be forever which leads to my next point.

Divorce should be addressed because the long-term-relationship group think that they are going to be exempt from any of the same issues that plague married people. Marriage at least provides some sort of legal cover, whereas your long term relationship won't provide the same level (although in England they're trying to make them the same).

Marriage gives you more security, that an unspoken (or spoken) agreement doesn't. It gives better legal cover, more security for children, and better sex. Pretty much any balanced couple who are married will tell you the same. I'm not excluding non-married relationships from being balanced/sane/happy, but in my experience from talking to friends, they're generally happier with a full commitment.

 

[The_root_of_all_evil]

If you really are looking for an answer, I'd disregard any response from anyone who isn't married, (or at least hasn't been married at least once). This makes me sound elitist, but you don't ask non-swimmers what it's like to swim - you ask the fish (end of the dubious metaphor).

But fish don't know what life's like without swimming, so that's sort of killed that metaphor.

 

[wgreer25]

A piece of paper shouldn't decide for me whether I love someone or not. A woman who comes into where I work has been with her boyfriend for 20 years, and they're not married, they call each other "husband" and "wife" because that's how they are but they just never saw the point in marriage, we have really interesting conversations when she comes in, makes my day

I know I maybe called a "spoilsport" or "no fun"(and believe me I have)but I would rather the money(£20,000 plus pounds knowing the type of woman I'll probably end up with)be spent on the mortgage, on a new car, deposit for a new house, put it away in a high interest account for a rainy day. You're spending a fuckton of money on one day where you basically exchange surnames and gain the "privilege" of calling each other husband and wife.

If you think you need to sign a piece of paper to say "I Love You and want to spend the rest of my life with you" to someone then honestly I really don't care about the "religious" significance or shit like that but you truly are bonkers in my eyes. And then you wonder why divorce is at all time high, marriage doesn't exactly get off to a good start when you're 20,000 plus pounds in the red.

I even more despise the people who look down on unmarried couples who have children just because they're "illegitimate". They may seem beneath you just because they come from a family where the parents aren't married but I would bet at least that kid is for the most part brought up right and taught a thing or too properly, much more than that married couple with a "legitimate" child. The level of ignorance and stupidity of some people is awe inspiring sometimes, what should it matter if the kid is "legitimate" or not? Is the kid loved? Yes. Is it taught well? Yes. Does it respect people? Yes. Etc. There is no one that should be swayed by what a piece of paper or a title of two people says, as long as I love my girlfriend and my child I couldn't care less about marriage, because I know I can do a goodass job anyway. I don't need a piece of paper to tell me otherwise. I feel sorry for the people who allow that bit of paper to rule their lives and make the decision for them because they have no belief that they can do a good job regardless of what anyone, never mind a bloody piece of paper, says.

I think you make some good points here and would like to comment.

I agree that marriage is not for everyone. To get married you have to be ready for the life long commitment. Do you need to get married to have a life long commitment? No. If you are religious, you might lean more toward marriage. My point that I wrote that long essay about is that you really need to be ready for it, and you are correct, most people are not, and they spend too much money on the wedding and being in the red from the start is really bad.

That is where I will reiterate that you have to have a partner with a like mind and be willing to compromise. If we did it exactly as my wife would have wanted we would probably be $20,000 in the hole. If we did it like I would like, we would have a party in Las Vegas for much less. We compromised and our entire wedding cost around $8000 and we has a little financial help form the families, and it was a great party. We had another couple friend who had a very similar wedding and came in cheaper. They got friends to help (i.e. free DJ and other stuff) and that seriously lowered the cost. If you have marriage in mind, make sure you partner and you have a similar picture of what it should be and be willing to compromise.

Now as to the importance of getting married vs. long relationship with no marriage. In the states, commmonlaw marriage have very little legal legs to stand on (different with every state). So from that standpoint, if you are going to make a life long commitment to someone, it is cheaper to be married. More tax breaks, easier estate handling and insurance benefits.

Someone else commented why should you have to declare your love in front of family and friends (i.e. just make a private statement of commitment). I think this is a very important part of the marriage process to have it public. Your friends and family should be a very important part of your life, so if you are going to commit to someone for life, I think it is important that they be involved (at least to witness the commitment). There is that saying "It takes a village to raise a child". A marriage could be seen the same way. If you are going to commit to someone for life, well that means they are going to be in contact with your friends and family, which hopefully are supportive. Involve them.

To conclude my rants: Marriage is not for everyone. If you think that you have a partner that you want to spend the rest of your life with and not get married, more power to you. Just make sure your partner has the same feelings. But if you are together 20+ years (married or not) and you separate, the heartbreak will be the same. It may be cleaner financially if you are not married, but the emotional effect will be the same. Money can be replaced, love is harder to come by. I see my marriage as a contract with my wife that whatever happens, we will work through it. Separation and devorce is not an option. That is why I was DAMN sure of the person I was going to marry. I actually told her 6 months into our relationship that I was going to marry her (I just knew), but we waited another 2.5 years till we did it. We lived together before we were married (and I would definately recomend that to anyone).

 

[Thais]

Thais your right on that aspect.

And also true.

About the legal issues or about "wedding bloat" needing to be separated from the "marriage" question?

The wedding bloat.

Good heavens don't get me started. The whole insane "platinum weddings" movement (in other words million dollar weddings) thing makes me sick to my stomach, it's absolutely insane to spend that kind of money when you don't have it. They even have advertised (I'm female, so I must be inherently interested in this crap, remember?) in a "wedding supplement circular" here this year an all new product...the "wedding loan". Great idea that, yeah?

 

[Uglycat]

But fish don't know what life's like without swimming, so that's sort of killed that metaphor.

Shhh, the metaphor is over!

 

[Darknite5201]

I don't think that marriage is really important, it's just a common tradition. It doesn't enhance your relationship by forking over £20,000 in my opinion.

 

[Andraste]

To me your post screamed "insecure", I'm not here to flame you but please let me explain how I read your post.

Wow. That is one term no one has ever used to describe me. So, I'm thinking you are perhaps misunderstanding my statements. I shall respond to your points.

We're agreed on weddings. That's a start.

From Wikipedia:
Marriage is an institution in which interpersonal relationships (usually intimate and sexual) are sanctioned with governmental, social, or religious recognition. It is often created by a contract or through civil processes.

I never knew love could be so difficult, all these forms to fill out before you "actually" love someone. And why does the vow have to be in front of everyone? Can you and your partner not make a vow to yourselves? "Dear (insert fiances name here), I promise to love you until the end of my days and that we shall spend the rest of our lives together". See? It doesn't need to be announced for the world to hear, I think they practically already know you're in for the long haul since you're getting married but I see this "vow" thing as conforming to the masses.

You are using marriage and love interchangably. They are not. Marriage is, from the point of secularity, a legal binding of two people. That is not love. And though the above definition mentions social and religious recognition, the second sentence where it mentions "contract" and "civil process" makes marriage sound like it's only legal. Again, there are many legal contracts completed every day that have nothing to do with love, including marriage.

I don't see it as only secular, but that's my personal feeling. Taking a vow in front of people can be very meaningful. It's not necessarily a "now i'm really serious" statement, which could I suppose cause some thoughts of insecurity in others, though that feels a little judgmental. Taking that vow in front of people can be a statement of "This is my chosen One. Having one partner through everything can be hard at times. Will you, our friends and family, become part of our decision to be together forever, and support us?"

As for your notion of the vow having to be in front of people, I never said that at all. In fact, I said, "vow in front of friends/family/god/each other." Those slashes were meant to = and/or. If it's just in front of each other and no family, OK. That's fine. To get the legal benefits of marriage, however, it has to be a legal contract, meaning a legally appointed or sanctioned person has to preside. As to conforming to the masses, I'm sure for some people, that's all it is - simply going through some motions. It is not that for everyone.

Yes, I know I'm going to be called out for "non conforming just to conform" but for me it goes without saying that if I meet someone who I want to spend the rest of my life with then I will tell her and her only, it's no one elses business. I know that me and my girlfriend will last, we don't need "confirmation" of a vow to tell us that.

I'm not calling you out at all, as I see no reason to do so. What you ahve is special and you have chosen how you wish to define it together. That's wonderful and I'm happy for you. Why do you choose to look down your nose at how I and some others might care to define our relationships? Why do you assume I'm looking for confirmation? I've no idea what sort of confirmation one should look for in marriage...

Sense of security? And here I was thinking that having a loving, caring, respectable family looking after you gave kids a sense of security, the fact that they can talk to their parents about anything should give them the sense of security, not whether their parents are married or not.

Yes, those things will give them a sense of security, and they are by far the most important things to giving them that sense. But when they are younger, kids don't fully understand abstract concepts - you can act it, but talking about them is tough. All it could take is one other child in their class or on the playground to say something about like "your parents aren't married..." (children can be very direct) to make a child wonder. They are deeply inured to societal pressures, they haven't thought about the abstract ramifications of such things. Things are or are not.

This line just about confirms it for me. Official? Why does your love have to be official? And it's a nice thing? It's a nice thing to have your love be made official? Or do you mean it's nice to tell everybody that you two are madly, deeply in love? I'm going to go with the latter. You and him are in it forever? Then why get married?

Most people can say they love their partner, but obviously because it's not official they can't then be in love can they? Or they clearly aren't as in love as you two are, how could they be? Their love isn't official, they aren't married.
What does that mean for the couple in my example in my other post? Does it mean their 20 years of "false" love can't possibly compete with your love because you're getting married?

Again, there's a lot of swapping in love for marriage. Not the same. I'm not putting any doubt on your love. I never said anything at all comparing mine to yours - how could I? I don't know you!

By official, I mean what I described above, going and telling our friends and family we are together, forever, and asking them to be a part of that "together," and that he and I are now an us. I get that you don't feel the need to do that. I don't feel the need to do it either. I don't feel the need to be accepted or whatever it is you are referring to. I want to tell my family and friends. I want them to share in that. It's a difference, not a one is better the other, or one is right and one is wrong. I never said any different.

To me it's this very mentality about marriage being a "I'm better than you, I've got the documents to prove it" thing that gets on my nerves. You got married, whoop de doo. I've been with my girlfriend for 20 + years, we have a kid who is loved, cherished and not a moment goes by where we don't love each other, our child may be "illegitimate" but he/she is most certainly brought up better than yours. Bullshit and chips for tea again methinks

Never said I was better. As I said before, it's a difference not a right or wrong situation.

I will absolutely take issue with your statement "our child may be 'illegitimate' but he/she is most certainly brought up better than yours." I'd never say a child is illegitimate. Ever. Any implication that I'd say that I take as a serious affront, and ascribing such a thing to me is quite out of line.

Further to that, suggesting my children would not be well loved and well brought up smacks of some hastily thought out reasoning based on overly judgmental conclusions you've drawn from a simple forum reply in which I said, basically, "I love my fiance very much and I cannot wait to be Mrs. ___." I've no idea where your comment came from, but it was not from me.

 

[Thais]

As for your notion of the vow having to be in front of people, I never said that at all. In fact, I said, "vow in front of friends/family/god/each other." Those slashes were meant to = and/or. If it's just in front of each other and no family, OK. That's fine. To get the legal benefits of marriage, however, it has to be a legal contract, meaning a legally appointed or sanctioned person has to preside.

Most states you still need two to four witnesses and a notary...so it actually (contractually anyway) really cannot be just the two people involved. In the US anyway.

 

[BallPtPenTheif]

I will absolutely take issue with your statement "our child may be 'illegitimate' but he/she is most certainly brought up better than yours." I'd never say a child is illegitimate. Ever. Any implication that I'd say that I take as a serious affront, and ascribing such a thing to me is quite out of line.

well said Andraste. who knows where WlknCntrdiction got his pressuposed notions of "arrogant married people", but it definitely was out of place since nobody here has echoed that sentiment.

 

[Sylocat]

The comments thread for My Big Fat Geek Wedding [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/6.62352] turned into a debate on the merits of Marriage: the Wedding Game versus its board game antecedent, Living Together.

Most of my full argument can be found there, but if you're too lazy to read it, let me summarize a few of my complaints:

1. Marriage is overhyped. The societal pressure to get married and have kids is astonishing, so much so that a lot of people don't even care who their mate is, they just want to get married just for the sake of being married, either because they're taken in by all the hype, or because they're sick of all their relatives asking them, "When are you going to settle down, get married and have kids?"

2. Getting back to the game metaphor for a moment: Given how aggressive the ad campaign for Marriage: the Wedding Game (and the expansion pack: Marriage II: Babies) is, you'd think the vendors wouldn't be quite so picky about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Marriage_Amendment#The_role_of_states] who they sell the game to [http://www.boston.com/jobs/news/articles/2006/03/26/same_sex_couples_face_unique_adoption_hurdles/]...

 

[apmpnmdslkbk]

Marriages kill your sex life so I would stray away from them.

 

[Bulletinmybrain]

Marriages kill your sex life so I would stray away from them.

Get some viagra then go get drunk from your lady and then come home and fuck her like brad pitt.

Also watch"Why did i get married" or some shit great movie about marriage

 

[Andraste]

2. Getting back to the game metaphor for a moment: Given how aggressive the ad campaign for Marriage: the Wedding Game (and the expansion pack: Marriage II: Babies) is, you'd think the vendors wouldn't be quite so picky about [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Marriage_Amendment#The_role_of_states] who they sell the game to [http://www.boston.com/jobs/news/articles/2006/03/26/same_sex_couples_face_unique_adoption_hurdles/]...

Funny way to put it. Nice.

 

[wgreer25]

Marriages kill your sex life so I would stray away from them.

I've mostly seen that true with people whom have overly high sexual relations before marriage. And in other cases, it's the, "Oh god, I'm only going to be sleeping with one person for the rest of my life." thing. If that ever crosses your mind, did you ever love the person to begin with? Marriage isn't exactly about sex. Neither is the meassure of your worth, or how much you love someone.

The people who say that marriage killed their sex life have married the wrong person. As I stated earlier, you have to make sure you are sexually compatible with the person you want to marry. Yes my wife and I were a little more active when we were just dating, but we have a very healty sex life now and we have been married 3 years. Hell, the biggest problem with our sex life is that she wants it more than me. I never thought that would happen to me, ever. When we have kids, that might change for obvious reasons.