Mary Sues and prejudice against female protagonists

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

I have recently begun writing again, after about ten years of not once putting pen to paper, and I decided to start looking around the internet for inspiration and advice. I ended up on TV Tropes (naturally) and found their pages on all the different types of Mary Sue that exist.

I've known about Mary Sues for a while, and I've mocked them along with everyone else over the years. I also wrote a couple Mary Sue characters of my own back when I was a preteen. Several years later, after realizing what I had done, I was completely mortified. That was actually one of the main reasons I quit writing for so long. And I'm not the only one; I've heard numerous accounts of other people who quit writing, or at least quit showing others their work, when they were accused of being a Suethor. It really is one of the most damning criticisms a writer can hear.

It seems as though public opinion of Mary Sues has recently become even worse than it was back then, which probably came about with the increase in popularity of nerd culture and greater awareness of what exactly a "Mary Sue" is. In some circles it has become a full-blown witch hunt, with certain people and groups proclaiming themselves to be "Sueslayers" and the like.

It's true that characters like Bella Swan, who only exist as an empty shell for the author and audience to imagine that they're in a relationship with another character, are pretty lame in published fiction (though I remain adamant that what you do with your fanfiction is your own business). But it really seems that people are much too quick to scream "Mary Sue!" at any character who is so much as competent (and, most importantly, is female), to the point that writing a fun and entertaining story about a female protagonist has become nearly impossible.

Yes, I know there has been some discussion about Marty/Gary Stus in fanfiction, but it always seems to be considered a sidenote to the main issue of female Mary Sues. The TV Tropes articles always used feminine pronouns when discussing Mary Sues, and at least one article suggested that such characters are predominantly female.

This may be the case in fanfiction. But I would like to propose that infinitely more popular canon male characters in fiction exhibit Sueish traits than their female counterparts. Consider James Bond, Indiana Jones, and...this quote, which I found online:

So, there's this girl. She's tragically orphaned and richer than anyone on the planet. Every guy she meets falls in love with her, but in between torrid romances she rejects them all because she dedicated to what is Pure and Good. She has genius level intellect, Olympic-athelete level athletic ability and incredible good looks. She is consumed by terrible angst, but this only makes guys want her more. She has no superhuman abilities, yet she is more competent than her superhuman friends and defeats superhumans with ease. She has unshakably loyal friends and allies, despite the fact she treats them pretty badly. They fear and respect her, and defer to her orders. Everyone is obsessed with her, even her enemies are attracted to her. She can plan ahead for anything and she's generally right with any conclusion she makes. People who defy her are inevitably wrong.

God, what a Mary Sue.

I just described Batman.

I'm of the belief that such over-the-top badass characters have just as much of a place in fiction as truly flawed and believable ones. The fantasy, adventure, and superhero genres in particular really can't thrive without such characters around to keep us enthralled and inspired.

So I would very much like to see other people realize that there's nothing wrong with them--so long as they're well-written and entertaining--and that there is just as much room for female characters of this type as there is for male characters.

One particularly disturbing realization I made in my research was that there have always been people making the same points as I've just made, even since the 1970s when the term "Mary Sue" was first coined. And yet it seems to have had little to no effect on public perception of fun female protagonists. Maybe someday we'll get there, but I'd like to see it happen sooner rather than later.

Thoughts? Personal anecdotes? Requests for amazing hot chocolate recipes? Post them here!

 

[FalloutJack]

-BATMAN!-

That right there is the reason Mary Sue is bullshit. Batman is NOT a bad character. A normal human being who swears vengeance for the death of his parents and goes out into the night to serve out justice? Awesome! He has NO super powers, only the things he can work together on his own with his resources. If he were poor, he'd STILL manage to do a job of it. Batman thinks outside the box, while othert heroes thing "It's power time!". These are just the facts as I see them.

 

[Otaku World Order]

One of the worst Mary Sues: Jack Ryan.

I like some of Tom Clancy's stuff, but every Jack Ryan novel seems to have at least a have dozen scenes where a group of high ranking milary types will talk about how awesome he is a scne where Jack downplays his own importance only for some bigwig to recite his accomplishments and how Jack should stop being so modest and on and on...

 

[manic_depressive13]

Sure, except Batman sucks. James Bond sucks. I've never seen Indiana Jones. Overpowered, contrived, inexplicably skilled and "desirable" characters aren't fun to read about because every line reeks of bullshit.

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

 

[seraphy]

That right there is the reason Mary Sue is bullshit. Batman is NOT a bad character. A normal human being who swears vengeance for the death of his parents and goes out into the night to serve out justice? Awesome! He has NO super powers, only the things he can work together on his own with his resources. If he were poor, he'd STILL manage to do a job of it. Batman thinks outside the box, while othert heroes thing "It's power time!". These are just the facts as I see them.

He is bad character. He has no superpowers yet he is almost flawless. Always succeeds and is just generally horrible pain in the ass.

Only reason batman gets a pass is because he is old. If newer superhero came around similar to Batman he would be laughed out of the room and just ignored.

Op.

Mary Sue is someone who is not only competent but flawless as well. You really don't have to write such a character to have an interesting and fun story. Indeed story which have someone like this will most certainly be unfun and uninteresting for anyone who reads it, not necessarily to its writer.

It isn't impossible to write an interesting female protagonist. Writers especially should understand that which makes characters interesting for readers are their flaws not their competence.

In my opinion there is no worse character in fiction than one who is perfect.

 

[him over there]

Not to be rude but the argument put forth would be a lot better if Batman was at all interesting. On the whole though I'm not sure if they are more likely to be called a Mary sue because they are females or if females receive the highest amount of scrutiny because of there sue track record. Plus Mary sue isn't a total condemnation, you can write a compelling character that could be called a sue as long as you have legitimate conflict that overshadows it.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

Mary Sue is someone who is not only competent but flawless as well. You really don't have to write such a character to have an interesting and fun story. Indeed story which have someone like this will most certainly be unfun and uninteresting for anyone who reads it, not necessarily to its writer.

It would be nice if that were the case, but unfortunately the Mary Sue accusations have become so widespread that being flawless is no longer a requirement. I even heard someone describe the entire cast of Firefly as Mary Sues, just because they're entertaining, good at their jobs, and usually succeed at what they set out to do.

Just like accusations of being emo are thrown at anything with a dark or sad feel to them. It's gotten pretty ridiculous.

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

* 3 Tbsp sugar
* 3 Tbsp high-quality unsweetened cocoa
* small pinch of salt
* small quantity of boiling water
* 2 c milk
* scant 1/2 tsp vanilla

Combine sugar, cocoa, salt, and enough water to make a paste. Add milk and heat in the microwave until temperature is just right. Mix thoroughly, then add vanilla. Makes 2 servings.

 

[Ordinaryundone]

Mary Sueism isn't about being flawless. This is common misconception. Rather, its about the effect they have on the world around them. Normal characters exist inside of a world. Everyone has their own life, motivations, etc. It all fits together, even if some of them are exceptional. Sues, on the other hand, change the world to exist for them. Think of every romance fanfiction you've read where an Author Insert appears and suddenly everyone has dropped everything in favor of interacting with the character. All the guys want her and will fight over her (regardless of previous friendships, current relationships, whatever), etc. This is a Mary Sue. By simply existing, she has made the world completely about her. She could weigh 300 pounds and have a face like a Sarlacc pit, it wouldn't matter.

A character can even be a Mary Sue if they have no positive features at all. They could be weak, cowardly, ineffectual, whatever, but even if everyone is standing around saying "Gosh, I wish BLANK was here so I could kick the shit out of them", they are still interacting with that character in lieu of having actual character themselves.

A Mary Sue is not always an Author Insert, nor are the always wish fulfillment, or anything. A Mary Sue is just an example of bad writing, where you were writing with a CHARACTER in mind, rather than a STORY.

Also, to reiterate. Being exceptional is NOT an example of Mary Sueism. It's just a side-effect of being the main character. After all, if the main character was "average" then nothing would ever get done.

 

[seraphy]

It would be nice if that were the case, but unfortunately the Mary Sue accusations have become so widespread that being flawless is no longer a requirement. I even heard someone describe the entire cast of Firefly as Mary Sues, just because they're entertaining, good at their jobs, and usually succeed at what they set out to do.

Just like accusations of being emo are thrown at anything with a dark or sad feel to them. It's gotten pretty ridiculous.

Yes well. Accusation of being Mary Sue and actually being one are quite different things. If you write you have to be able to see the difference between proper criticism and bullshit.

Ordinaryundone...

There is no proper worldwide definition of Mary sue you know.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

Not to be rude but the argument put forth would be a lot better if Batman was at all interesting. On the whole though I'm not sure if they are more likely to be called a Mary sue because they are females or if females receive the highest amount of scrutiny because of there sue track record. Plus Mary sue isn't a total condemnation, you can write a compelling character that could be called a sue as long as you have legitimate conflict that overshadows it.

There is some amount of opinion involved in whether you believe a character is well-written and interesting, but the fact remains that Batman has been a beloved nerd-culture icon for over 70 years. In fact, one of the highest-rated games to come out last year was about Batman.

This is likely because for a very long time now, "male" wish-fulfillment (kick all the asses, solve all the problems, and bang all the chicks) has been considered more interesting than "female" wish-fulfillment (charm everyone with your wit and beauty, all while being fabulously dressed), as well as more lucrative because males have typically had more money than females and were thus more likely to be catered to.

But with the slight breakdown of gender stereotypes and the increased income and presence of women in nerd culture, this may change fairly soon. We'll see.

As to your last comment: it would be nice if being well-written with an interesting conflict was enough to protect a character from accusations of being a Mary Sue, but that is rarely the case. Just like with anything else, if there is only one complaint about your character/game/story/whatever, but that complaint is repeated loudly and often, soon that will be the only thing people associate with it, regardless of how good it is. See: Avatar is derivative, SWTOR is a WoW-clone, etc. And with the popularity of Mary Sue accusations as of late (likely the result of people who have recently discovered what a Mary Sue is and are eager to show off their knowledge), as well as the level of vitriol with which the accusation is thrown, it's become a pretty hard accusation to recover from.

 

[manic_depressive13]

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

* 3 Tbsp sugar
* 3 Tbsp high-quality unsweetened cocoa
* small pinch of salt
* small quantity of boiling water
* 2 c milk
* scant 1/2 tsp vanilla

Combine sugar, cocoa, salt, and enough water to make a paste. Add milk and heat in the microwave until temperature is just right. Mix thoroughly, then add vanilla. Makes 2 servings.

Oh, so that's how it's done. I had no idea you needed so many ingredients. Instead of adding a pinch of salt will it work if I just cry into my mug?

I do think that female characters get scrutinised far too much. Unfortunately I catch even myself doing it on occasion. I don't even know what the fuck a female character is supposed to be like anymore. You can't make her too weak because that's sexist, you can't make her too strong because that makes her a Mary Sue. If she acts "feminine" you're stereotyping but if she doesn't have "feminine" interests you're just "writing a male character in a female skin". If she's sexual you're objectifying her or playing into male fantasies, but if she's not interested you're denying women's sexuality. Except if they use their sexuality to manipulate men that's good (or something?). What the fuck. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a believable female character or if my entire personality could be shoehorned into some archetype. So much for removing gender roles.

 

[seraphy]

There is some amount of opinion involved in whether you believe a character is well-written and interesting, but the fact remains that Batman has been a beloved nerd-culture icon for over 70 years. In fact, one of the highest-rated games to come out last year was about Batman.

Your notion that badly written characters can't be popular is quite interesting.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

It would be nice if that were the case, but unfortunately the Mary Sue accusations have become so widespread that being flawless is no longer a requirement. I even heard someone describe the entire cast of Firefly as Mary Sues, just because they're entertaining, good at their jobs, and usually succeed at what they set out to do.

Just like accusations of being emo are thrown at anything with a dark or sad feel to them. It's gotten pretty ridiculous.

Yes well. Accusation of being Mary Sue and actually being one are quite different things. If you write you have to be able to see the difference between proper criticism and bullshit.

Ordinaryundone...

There is no proper worldwide definition of Mary sue you know.

This is why I dislike the term so much. There is no true universal definition of Mary Sue, but the one thing that is universal is that if something is described as a Mary Sue, it means that it is terrible and beyond redemption. Since it's considered to be a "you know it when you see it" thing, that makes people extra-eager to point them out, very often leading to confirmation bias.

And being able to dismiss it as bullshit would be great, but there are a number of things something can be accused of being, even once, that will then be repeated until that's the only thing people can associate with it. The main ones I've noticed for fiction are Mary Sue, emo, and unoriginal (even though originality in fiction is basically a myth). If your work is criticized as being one of those things, that stigma will follow you forever.

*Edit: sexist and racist too. Whether or not it's true, the aforementioned confirmation bias can easily come into play. If you write a character that's seen as a sexist stereotype, you're seen as a sexist from then on. Same with writing a character that's seen as a Mary Sue: you are now a Suethor, congratulations.

A character who is flawless can be interesting if their flawlessness leads to an interesting conflict (example: people become too dependent on Superman, so what do they do when he's not there for them?). A character who bends the laws of established canon, however, is almost impossible to be made compelling.

For a budding writer, there is a world of difference between "This character would be more interesting if people responded to him more naturally" and "KILL THE SUE!!!!" (an all-too-common response.)

Writers need to be taught that their Sues can be salvageable, and people in general need to learn that banishing a writer to the Suethor pile is completely unproductive.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

There is some amount of opinion involved in whether you believe a character is well-written and interesting, but the fact remains that Batman has been a beloved nerd-culture icon for over 70 years. In fact, one of the highest-rated games to come out last year was about Batman.

Your notion that badly written characters can't be popular is quite interesting.

Please point out where I said that.

I do think that female characters get scrutinised far too much. Unfortunately I catch even myself doing it on occasion. I don't even know what the fuck a female character is supposed to be like anymore. You can't make her too weak because that's sexist, you can't make her too strong because that makes her a Mary Sue. If she acts "feminine" you're stereotyping but if she doesn't have "feminine" interests you're just "writing a male character in a female skin". If she's sexual you're objectifying her or playing into male fantasies, but if she's not interested you're denying women's sexuality. Except if they use their sexuality to manipulate men that's good (or something?). What the fuck. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a believable female character or if my entire personality could be shoehorned into some archetype. So much for removing gender roles.

Oh good lord, yes. This is also awful, and the subject of many a potential rant.

 

[Spacewolf]

Well the problem with batman as an example is because he is so old you could probably call him woefully incompotent because of the number of times hes been called out, failed and generally been less effective than an ordinary officer at getting some of his enemys permenently put down

 

[seraphy]

Please point out where I said that.

I just read between the lines. Perhaps wrongly then.

 

[EmperorSubcutaneous]

Please point out where I said that.

I just read between the lines. Perhaps wrongly then.

Indeed. What I intended to say in the comment that you quoted is that there is a lot of personal opinion involved in whether or not you believe a character is well-written, but that regardless of how well-written (or not) a character like Batman actually is, the fact of the matter is that he is arguably the most popular nerd-culture character ever created. A female version of the same character would not have had the same luxury back when Batman was originally created, and still wouldn't today. This is mostly due to the fact that nerd culture has always been something of a boys' club, though that has been changing over the past decade. (Female nerds are still on pretty shaky ground, though, and are called on to prove their nerd credentials much more often than male nerds.)

Additionally, most of the iconic female characters we know (Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, etc) were created by men. This makes Mary Sue accusations much harder to throw at them. It's actually pretty hard to think of a female character who was created by a woman and is popular in nerd culture.

This is one reason why I love MLP:FiM so much: a female writer created female characters who have seen unprecedented (though obviously not universal) success and acceptance from the nerd community. I hope to see that trend continue.

 

[TheRightToArmBears]

Sure, except Batman sucks. James Bond sucks. I've never seen Indiana Jones. Overpowered, contrived, inexplicably skilled and "desirable" characters aren't fun to read about because every line reeks of bullshit.

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

I agree, except for James Bond. He's much more human in the books.

Any character that's 'just that damn good' at everything is boring. The problem with Batman is that his 'flaws' are non-flaws, they make women like him, etc. Lots of comic book characters hive problems like that simply because they've been written about for so long that all their crap just builds up over time (each storyline being 'MOAR EPIC' than the last) and they become basically perfect.

 

[seraphy]

Indeed. What I intended to say in the comment that you quoted is that there is a lot of personal opinion involved in whether or not you believe a character is well-written, but that regardless of how well-written (or not) a character like Batman actually is, the fact of the matter is that he is arguably the most popular nerd-culture character ever created. A female version of the same character would not have had the same luxury back when Batman was originally created, and still wouldn't today. This is mostly due to the fact that nerd culture has always been something of a boys' club, though that has been changing over the past decade. (Female nerds are still on pretty shaky ground, though, and are called on to prove their nerd credentials much more often than male nerds.)

Additionally, most of the iconic female characters we know (Wonder Woman, Lara Croft, etc) were created by men. This makes Mary Sue accusations much harder to throw at them. It's actually pretty hard to think of a female character who was created by a woman and is popular in nerd culture.

This is one reason why I love MLP:FiM so much: a female writer created female characters who have seen unprecedented (though obviously not universal) success and acceptance from the nerd community. I hope to see that trend continue.

Difference however is that if Batman was created today, he would not become icon either. He would be laughed at and pointed fingers. People expect more depths from characters these days than what he has.

However I get what you mean now, and apologise for jumping to conclusions.

 

[Togs]

A Mary Sue in the hands of a good writer is not a bad thing, those type of characters are instead awesome.

But one thing that does tend to seperate a Sue from a Sue-a-like is how the writer treats the character, a real Sue faces next to no real conflict, a Sue-a-like (e.g. Batman) gets the shit kicked out of them on the way to the resolution, where yes it will be revealed they were right all along and an utter badass to boot.