Mary Sues and prejudice against female protagonists

[Zydrate]

I don't doubt that an ultra-flawless character can't be fun, but it really depends on what kind of story or protagonist you're going for.

I to, have been writing a story with a female protagonist. She's hardly perfect because it's more of a gritty Repo! inspired story (Instead of organ failure, people's moods become out of whack due to supernatural influence, but can be corrected with implants that become a fashion symbol in the society).

So, given that very brief synopsis, it's obvious that there's not much room for a "perfect" protagonist. It's just not for the genre.

 

[Sarah Kerrigan]

I can't really think of any Marysues, but as a Roleplayer, I have seen them, and they make my eyes burn.

I guess you could count Jack Ryan and maybe even Subject Delta from Bioshock...I hope Elizabeth doesn't end up that way, but seeing how she's turning out, I don't think so.

 

[godfist88]

I just described Batman.

Wow, I wasn't aware aware that fiction had such a gross double standard when it to characters like this. it makes you think doesn't it?

 

[RandallJohn]

For me, the reason I find it forgivable with Batman is because I don't watch a Batman movie for his character and personality. I watch it for the "Shit, that was awesome" factor. If I sit and think about the character, I don't really care for him, but I'm there for the gadgets, the ass kicking, the villains (who I'd argue are almost consistently more interesting than Batman himself,) etc. I guess it's a "rule of cool" thing, in a way.

Also, for a universal definition, may I suggest:

"A character who is undeservedly the center of their universe."

(Definitions of "undeservedly" and "universe" can be up for debate. ^_^)

 

[Vault101]

I just described Batman.

Wow, I wasn't aware aware that fiction had such a gross double standard when it to characters like this. it makes you think doesn't it?

keep in mind however that batman is an ocon..an old Icon thats been going on for ageis..and as somone said above lazy writing

 

[manic_depressive13]

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

* 3 Tbsp sugar
* 3 Tbsp high-quality unsweetened cocoa
* small pinch of salt
* small quantity of boiling water
* 2 c milk
* scant 1/2 tsp vanilla

Combine sugar, cocoa, salt, and enough water to make a paste. Add milk and heat in the microwave until temperature is just right. Mix thoroughly, then add vanilla. Makes 2 servings.

Oh, so that's how it's done. I had no idea you needed so many ingredients. Instead of adding a pinch of salt will it work if I just cry into my mug?

I do think that female characters get scrutinised far too much. Unfortunately I catch even myself doing it on occasion. I don't even know what the fuck a female character is supposed to be like anymore. You can't make her too weak because that's sexist, you can't make her too strong because that makes her a Mary Sue. If she acts "feminine" you're stereotyping but if she doesn't have "feminine" interests you're just "writing a male character in a female skin". If she's sexual you're objectifying her or playing into male fantasies, but if she's not interested you're denying women's sexuality. Except if they use their sexuality to manipulate men that's good (or something?). What the fuck. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a believable female character or if my entire personality could be shoehorned into some archetype. So much for removing gender roles.

I agree...the whole issue gets complicated...just like the thread talking about womens outfits and such

I think the best female charachters are the ones where their gender is "kind of" second to their role in the story

is that essentially "writing a male charachter in a female skin"? probably, but at least she seems actually real and belivable (depending on what you have her doing of coarse)

in the end I prefer to look at the induivdual peice of fiction....or I think people should think about it less

Haha when you said "the whole issue gets complicated" I thought you were talking about hot chocolate.

I agree with what you said about fight scenes with girls. They're just choreographed dances designed to show off their body and flexibility, and the hits that knock the guys out look like they wouldn't be able to squish a fly. Why can't there be a decent fight scene where a girl throws a real punch? It's either bitchfight or ballet. It pisses me off so much.

 

[Vault101]

For me, the reason I find it forgivable with Batman is because I don't watch a Batman movie for his character and personality. I watch it for the "Shit, that was awesome" factor. If I sit and think about the character, I don't really care for him, but I'm there for the gadgets, the ass kicking, the villains (who I'd argue are almost consistently more interesting than Batman himself,) etc. I guess it's a "rule of cool" thing, in a way.

Also, for a universal definition, may I suggest:

"A character who is undeservedly the center of their universe."

(Definitions of "undeservedly" and "universe" can be up for debate. ^_^)

I hate to think of Comander shepard as a mary sue..but he/she fits the description..espeically the "center" of the universe thing..well sort of

 

[Vault101]

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

* 3 Tbsp sugar
* 3 Tbsp high-quality unsweetened cocoa
* small pinch of salt
* small quantity of boiling water
* 2 c milk
* scant 1/2 tsp vanilla

Combine sugar, cocoa, salt, and enough water to make a paste. Add milk and heat in the microwave until temperature is just right. Mix thoroughly, then add vanilla. Makes 2 servings.

Oh, so that's how it's done. I had no idea you needed so many ingredients. Instead of adding a pinch of salt will it work if I just cry into my mug?

I do think that female characters get scrutinised far too much. Unfortunately I catch even myself doing it on occasion. I don't even know what the fuck a female character is supposed to be like anymore. You can't make her too weak because that's sexist, you can't make her too strong because that makes her a Mary Sue. If she acts "feminine" you're stereotyping but if she doesn't have "feminine" interests you're just "writing a male character in a female skin". If she's sexual you're objectifying her or playing into male fantasies, but if she's not interested you're denying women's sexuality. Except if they use their sexuality to manipulate men that's good (or something?). What the fuck. Sometimes I wonder if I'm a believable female character or if my entire personality could be shoehorned into some archetype. So much for removing gender roles.

I agree...the whole issue gets complicated...just like the thread talking about womens outfits and such

I think the best female charachters are the ones where their gender is "kind of" second to their role in the story

is that essentially "writing a male charachter in a female skin"? probably, but at least she seems actually real and belivable (depending on what you have her doing of coarse)

in the end I prefer to look at the induivdual peice of fiction....or I think people should think about it less

Haha when you said "the whole issue gets complicated" I thought you were talking about hot chocolate.

I agree with what you said about fight scenes with girls. They're just choreographed dances designed to show off their body and flexibility, and the hits that knock the guys out look like they wouldn't be able to squish a fly. Why can't there be a decent fight scene where a girl throws a real punch? It's either bitchfight or ballet. It pisses me off so much.

not to mention sexist in a way..think about it, shes not shown as eaqual to the tough guys its like shes "special" so she gets to beat up bad guys with minimal effort because "we cant hit a girl"

its unlily youll see her struggle or (like I said) get the crap beaten out of her and have to perservere through like you would the mail protagonist

worst thing thats going to happen to her is shell get held at gunpoint to add tension to the the situation so the protagonist can blah blah blah

you get the Idea

and yeah..hot chocolate does baffle me somtimes :/

 

[FallenMessiah88]

Female characters are generally scrutinized much more than male characters. It is a sad fact that is prevelant in pretty much any fandom nowadays.

Take a series like Naruto for example. In it, we are told a whole lot about the titular character Naruto (his background, his goals and motivations) and how he gradually is able to overcome most of his weaknesses and grow as a character, not only in terms of strength but also in terms of personality. The same thing goes for the other male lead, Sasuke, although his story takes a signicantly darker turn towards the end of part one.

Meanwhile, Sakura spends most of part 1 being generally overshadowed by her two male counterparts. However by the end of part one, it is pretty clear that she has indeed gone through a significant development, not so much in terms of strength (this is mostly evident by the fact that unlike pretty much every other character in the series, including other female characters, she has no unique powers or bloodline techniques or really just special traits at all) but more in terms of personlity. In short, she went from a slighty egotistical brat to a very compassionate person who cares a lot about her friends and those close to her and who would do anything to ensure their safety and thus part one ends with her seeking out one of the strongest female ninjas of all time in order to train to become stronger.

This is what I, and most other Sakura fans, like so much about her. Sure she's not the strongest character ever and her background could be a bit more fleshed out, but what she lacks in those two areas, she more than makes up for in terms of just being an interesting character. Still, a lot of people didn't take kindly to her. They said that she was a *****, that she was boring and uninteresting and that she was useless and weak.

This leaves us at the start of part two, which takes place two and a half years after part one. Now, after having spent the last two years training relentlessly, she has suddenly gained a considerable oomph in terms of strength. Not only does she now has super human strength which makes her capable of demolishing solid rock with her bare fists, she has also become a magnificient medic, so much in fact that many consider her to be a medical prodigy, though that is strictly a fanon thing. She is never directly referred to as such in canon. Also, in terms of personality, she is now much more mature and focused on her duty as a ninja and overall she is just a much more pleasant person.

So what happens? Well, now she same people who complained about her having a million flaws and not being too weak instead complains about her being, you guessed it...A mary sue!

So in the end, what it all comes down to is this: Females never win! :-/

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

I'd heard of Mary Sues before but never really had a grasp on what they were. So it isn't really just a badass character, but more a character who the world revolves around. I'm curious if someone like Sherlock Holmes (from the books, though I guess from the movies too) would be considered a Mary Sue? He's not really the type of character that fails very often I guess is why I'm asking.

TvTropes has got you covered: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

I'm sorry.

OT: Discussing Mary Sues is a minefield, I'm staying outta this one.

 

[puff ball]

the one example that Ive seen thrown around that bugs me is James bond. I believe he is more of a character pretending to be a character. there is a line in one of the more recent bond films by Q "never let them see you bleed". this shows that bond is a real man building a myth about how great he really is. so anytime he barely escapes death instead of showing the reaction he is probably feeling, he brushes it off with a cleaver one liner to keep the myth alive.(I like to pretend that each new actor who portrays Bond is a new character taking up the mantel of 007. so when one Bond dies or has to retire a new one is promoted to keep the image alive}. of course thats just my opinion.

 

[manic_depressive13]

not to mention sexist in a way..think about it, shes not shown as eaqual to the tough guys its like shes "special" so she gets to beat up bad guys with minimal effort because "we cant hit a girl"

its unlily youll see her struggle or (like I said) get the crap beaten out of her and have to perservere through like you would the mail protagonist

worst thing thats going to happen to her is shell get held at gunpoint to add tension to the the situation so the protagonist can blah blah blah

you get the Idea

and yeah..hot chocolate does baffle me somtimes :/

Whenever I see that kind of fight I always imagine that all the thugs got together before the scene and said "Remember everyone, it's Amy's first day in the underground. Be extra special nice to her and let her think her punches actually hurt." Then when she leaves they go drink tea and discuss their favourite classical poets.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

Sure, except Batman sucks. James Bond sucks. I've never seen Indiana Jones. Overpowered, contrived, inexplicably skilled and "desirable" characters aren't fun to read about because every line reeks of bullshit.

Does anyone have an amazing hot chocolate recipe?

I agree, except for James Bond. He's much more human in the books.

Any character that's 'just that damn good' at everything is boring. The problem with Batman is that his 'flaws' are non-flaws, they make women like him, etc. Lots of comic book characters hive problems like that simply because they've been written about for so long that all their crap just builds up over time (each storyline being 'MOAR EPIC' than the last) and they become basically perfect.

I think Superman is even a stronger example(seriously what can't he do if a green rock isn't involved?)

 

[Kahunaburger]

I hate to think of Comander shepard as a mary sue..but he/she fits the description..espeically the "center" of the universe thing..well sort of

Haha, that's a really good one actually - esp. in ME2. It's at the point where they are a hairline away from explicitly stating that Shep has plot armor.

 

[Flailing Escapist]

Has anybody else read Damned by Palahnuik?

Best. Written. Female. Protagonist. Since. Sliced. Bread.

 

[Thyunda]

I just described Batman.

Wow, I wasn't aware aware that fiction had such a gross double standard when it to characters like this. it makes you think doesn't it?

No! No it doesn't! Because that description didn't describe Batman at all! It missed out the years of martial arts training, the spinal injury and every other bloody aspect of Batman's character! All it did was describe point A and point Z, without any of the twenty-four points in between.

It's when points B through Y don't actually have anything of substance, THEN you get a Mary-Sue.

Take Phantom of the Opera fan-fiction. That's an easy way to spot a Mary-Sue. A beautiful girl with an untrained voice so beautiful it makes the Phantom totally forget about Christine and fall all over this new girl. A Mary-Sue is representative of the author's fantasy. The aforementioned example is undeniably a fantasy.

Batman, however? Well, sure. I suppose it's a fantasy if your parents are both shot dead in an alleyway, if you consider spending years training in the Far East in martial arts, and spend every dollar you earn on fighting increasingly ridiculous criminals, in a fight that will never end.
Oh. And don't forget Bane snapping Batman like a twig. And as for those friends of his? One of them gets shot in the spine and ends up wheel-chair bound. But Batman still relies on her intelligence. Batman has his ass saved by Robin more than once.
Batman has failed before, and been forced to fight his way back to success.

That's the difference here. Batman makes mistakes. A Mary-Sue does not.

Now my brain fills in plotholes on its own, and takes characters as they are given, so I'm terrible for spotting Mary Sues, and I'm not part of this witch-hunt the OP mentioned.

 

[Scars Unseen]

I'd heard of Mary Sues before but never really had a grasp on what they were. So it isn't really just a badass character, but more a character who the world revolves around. I'm curious if someone like Sherlock Holmes (from the books, though I guess from the movies too) would be considered a Mary Sue? He's not really the type of character that fails very often I guess is why I'm asking.

Nobody really has a grasp on what a Mary Sue is. Or rather, a lot of people do, but none of them agree on a standard definition. The OP brought up TV Tropes, but failed to make note that said article [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue] even says that once the term hit the internet, it lost all meaning, and its use as a point of criticism is often flamebait.

Depending on who you ask, almost any character could be a Mary Sue(or Marty Stu), which could explain why a Batman is being called a Marty Stu even though he has had his back broken, failed to save multiple friends/apprentices, and -as Bruce Wayne, the richest man in Gotham- failed to make any headway in improving the city he tries to protect. All in all, Batman has never succeeded in improving anything while a combination of his refusal to kill and his inexplicable habit of dropping criminals off at an asylum with notoriously ineffective security has gotten countless people killed. He's willing to break the law, but only just enough to not make any real difference. In short, he's damage control, and that's it.

Under certain definitions of Mary sue, he could still qualify, yet under other definitions, he would be exempt.