Mary Sues and prejudice against female protagonists

[xvbones]

Thoughts? Personal anecdotes? Requests for amazing hot chocolate recipes? Post them here!

The thing is that it all depends entirely on how the character is written and presented.

Batman, for example, is NOT a strong example of a Mary Sue (the male equivalent, btw, is called a Marty Stu, a perfect example of which is actually Gandalf, who is all-powerful, infallible, always shows up at the right moment to save everyone and is basically a living Des Ex Machina), because Batman is often quite well-written AND ALSO because all of the quoted examples are actually in fact integral aspects of his character, rather than simple flavor-text.

(And also actually kind of dismissively over-simplified, imo, but I am biased, as I am a lifelong Batman diehard.)

The difference is that Batman actually acts like the aloof hardassed asshole hero that his backstory defines, rather than have it just be a handful of extra words that don't matter, if this makes sense.

When he is well-written, batman's past creates his character, as it should be.
(When he's not, it doesn't.)

 

[Vault101]

I hate to think of Comander shepard as a mary sue..but he/she fits the description..espeically the "center" of the universe thing..well sort of

That really is a sad thought.I think I'll reserve judgement till ME3, can't be a Sue if every choice you've made in the past 2-3 years blows up in your face.

I can only really see that happening if your renegade..then again we can always hope for some twists and turns

PLUS it can depend on how you look at it...shepard through the whole thing was just in the right place at the right time..had things turned out different shepard mgiht not have been in that position..its not like he/she took down sovergn alone....

Whenever I see that kind of fight I always imagine that all the thugs got together before the scene and said "Remember everyone, it's Amy's first day in the underground. Be extra special nice to her and let her think her punches actually hurt." Then when she leaves they go drink tea and discuss their favourite classical poets.

hahahaha EXTACTALLY..brilliant

[sub/]was that choice of name random or intentional?[/sub]

I did it to freak you out. That's your name, right? I'm Christina, nice to meet you.

indeed it is....haha nice to meet you too
(as you probably know Ive already been taken by surprise several times becuase of that bad horror game that kept popping up)

 

[Nechti_Visara]

if she doesn't have "feminine" interests you're just "writing a male character in a female skin".

I'm a little surprised this hasn't been brought up, actually, but that is, in my opinion, the biggest problem with Mary Sue accusations. When the accusations are made against a character that doesn't deserve it, that's often the argument used to say that she's a Mary Sue -- that she's too much like a man. The issue is, is that "a male character in a female skin" just doesn't make sense. That's implying that women that act like men, or that have stereotypically male habits or mannerisms, don't exist in real life. Which is not true. Saying that just lends to the idea that there are specific gender roles.

I think one major aspect of a universally connectable character is to see if nothing would change if you switched the gender of the character in question. Not to say that that's necessary in creating a good character -- but it's something to think about. Often, when female characters don't embrace their sexuality in some way, the above argument is made. But, when male characters embrace their sexuality, we don't normally see people claiming that they are writing for a female character; we just see people talking about how badass he is, getting all the women. And if a female character embraces her sexuality? Be prepared for derogatory comments and complaints about how it makes her a weaker character.

Basically, a huge problem with the way people look at characters tends to be that we think there's a specific way to write for a specific gender, or certain traits that each gender needs to have. When it comes to other issues, like race or species, this can be a little different because there are some cultural contexts that often need to be taken into account, but when it comes to genders, there shouldn't be any major differences between the character creation processes. But people look for differences in the characters, often leading to Mary Sue accusations when a female character could easily be a male one.

 

[Lazier Than Thou]

When people write about a perfect character that has no real flaw, it destroys the story.

Perhaps I'm wrong on that, though.

I don't think it's necessarily about having flaws. Richard in Sword of Truth has plenty of flaws--he has a stupid temper, he jumps to conclusions, etc. His flaws, however, never produce any negative result other than *angst*.

Another characteristic of the true Mary Sue is that everybody else is helpless without them, no matter how independent and competent they were prior to encountering the Mary Sue.

Yeah, but that's what I mean. Richard has flaws, but they don't actually exist because they don't actually cause problems. I honestly haven't read the Sword of Truth series for probably going on 9-10 years now so I can't point to specifics in there so I'm going to give you what I mean from a different story.

Harry Dresden from The Dresden Files is specifically what I mean about a character that has flaws. In the beginning of the series, he has a large problem with sharing information with people. This problem actually ends up hurting people, emotionally and physically. It causes friends to distrust him and it negatively impacts his life in tangible ways.

I don't remember that ever happening with Richard. He might have flaws, but those flaws don't mean anything. No one ever gets hurts by his actions, because his "flaws" are token. They don't mean anything, they're just there so that you can say "see, he's not perfect."

 

[Jennacide]

-BATMAN!-

That right there is the reason Mary Sue is bullshit. Batman is NOT a bad character. A normal human being who swears vengeance for the death of his parents and goes out into the night to serve out justice? Awesome! He has NO super powers, only the things he can work together on his own with his resources. If he were poor, he'd STILL manage to do a job of it. Batman thinks outside the box, while othert heroes thing "It's power time!". These are just the facts as I see them.

Funny story, not all Mary Sue's are bad. The catch is that most are given the character depth of a thimble, which OP is complaining about. Also amusingly, Batman had this issue early on until he was given more depth.

Additionally, Superman is a better Mary Sue example. And a much shittier character.

 

[PBMcNair]

I hate to think of Comander shepard as a mary sue..but he/she fits the description..espeically the "center" of the universe thing..well sort of

That really is a sad thought.I think I'll reserve judgement till ME3, can't be a Sue if every choice you've made in the past 2-3 years blows up in your face.

I can only really see that happening if your renegade..then again we can always hope for some twists and turns

PLUS it can depend on how you look at it...shepard through the whole thing was just in the right place at the right time..had things turned out different shepard mgiht not have been in that position..its not like he/she took down sovergn alone....

Well in terms of Bioware games I've only played Dragon Age and Mass Effect, but they really seem to enjoy giving the player as close to no-win scenarios as they can, so I'm expecting things won't be Paragon = victory/Renegade = failure.

But more on topic, I don't really think that Mary Sues apply as much in games(especially RPG's or games with real choices), at least with the player character, as they are only as effective as the player is/chooses to be.

 

[Zen Toombs]

-snip-

Methinks you missed a tvtropes page. [http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MartyStu] However, you do have a BIT of a point with the Batman thing. However, there is still some context you're missing. While All Star Batman[sup]1[/sup] is definitely a Marty Stu, I'm less certain his character is one as a whole. He doesn't fight for what is Pure and Good[sup]TM[/sup]. He fights for vengeance, and justice when he can manage. Most of the time when I see Batman interacting with other superheros (other than in All-Star Batman), he treats them as friends and allies. Also, in Batman is hardly obsessed over by anyone but his archvillains (many of whom he helped to create) and Catwoman (who tends to obsess over whatever super she shares a comic with[sup]2[/sup]).

IN SUMMATION: You bring up several important points, but non-All Star Batman is not quite how you describe and there exists significant vitrol towards Marty Stu characters (note the backlash against Eragon). You are right though that people are far more likely to accuse a female character of being a Stu than a male character. Also, not all Stu's are bad.

[sup]1[/sup]: All Star Batman

Spoiler: All Star Batman

[sup]2[/sup]: Note her romance with Spiderman and so forth.

 

[Blobpie]

Mary Sue can be male or female, but because Mary sue is a girl name people only begin to associate the term with females.

This is what i do for my characters;
I flesh them out their appearance, their personality and their flaws.

Then i look over what i wrote down, and i ask the question. "Is this character a person."
And by that i mean, is the character believable.

 

[Farseer Lolotea]

That right there is the reason Mary Sue is bullshit. Batman is NOT a bad character.

It doesn't necessarily follow that "Mary Sue is bullshit" just because Batman isn't a bad character.

Now, I won't say that there's absolutely no difference in how a heroic female character tends to be received, as opposed to a heroic male character. But Batman handled in a half-assed fashion could easily end up being the Sammiest Sam that ever Sammed.

As I've said elsewhere: a character can be a badass with no significant flaws without being a Mary Sue, or be a Sue even while being flawed (although a Sue's flaws will often be ignored or treated as strengths). It depends on several other factors.

Mary Sue is a pathetic strawman bashing of a character that a particular reader doesn't like. It's a word used in place of real critisism for people who don't possess the necessary brain power to form a coherent thought.

And I could say the same of...say, the word "hypocrite." After all, nowadays, it's used more often as a generic auto-discredit button for anyone who disagrees with you than for actually calling someone out for faking the moral high ground.

But even with that in mind: if someone fakes the moral high ground a lot, is it a "pathetic strawman" displaying a lack of "brain power" to call that person a hypocrite?

Anyone who uses the term "Mary Sue" to classify a character should be laughed out of the room.

And I could say the same of anyone who thinks that misuse of a term invalidates all usage.