Mary Sues! *Shakes fist*

[DirtyJunkieScum]

I think my favourite thing is how amazingly loyal Jurgen is to Cain, and all he can ever mention is the fact that he smells.

That's not the only thing he mentions at all. He frequently brings up Jurgen's loyalty, resourcefulness in scavenging up useful stuff and making his life easier as well as being a reliable and accomplished soldier, the only person he feels comfortable fighting alongside, he mentions at some point that he misses him now he's not around. The most memorable bit of any of the stories for me was when

Spoiler: spoiler if you havent read Emperors Finest

He asks the governor's daughter he's been banging if she would please show Jurgen the respect due to a member of the Imperial guard and not treat him like one of the hired help

. For a completely fictitious moment I found it quite touching.

Captcha: tea leaf. Presumably tanna tea.

 

[Treblaine]

I've always found the "Mary Sue" label a fallacious criticism that depends more on people's prejudices against deviating from norms than genuine desire for good characters.

Any evidence for this?

So if a character is all amazing but in a traditional way like 30-something white-male with dark hair and a straight conservative sex life then it's fine.

Considering people in this thread have said things like Superman and Batman I'm gonna go out on a limb and say no.

James Bond has been immune to this for the best part of 60 years as are all the other male action leads from Indiana Jones to Batman.

Except not... The Austin Powers movies are a piss take of the ridiculousness of James Bond and like I said people in this thread said Batman.

I remind you at Mary Sue's age Captain Kirk was being "unrealistic and adolescent wish-fantasy" is Starfleet beating unbeatable tests, going to advanced training, graduating in top percent, becoming Starfleet's youngest Captain.

As someone who has never seen a full episode of Star Trek I have to ask, was he only 15 when he accomplished all this? I don't think so. In fact Wesley was included in this thread, bringing it back to Star Wars so you're kind of reaching to say it's only women being labelled as this and that Trekkies hate teenagers in general it seems.

Yet the trope is not called a Captain Kirk, it's called a Mary Sue.

Because it was originally created for author insertion characters in fanfiction. Which Mary Sue was and Captain Kirk wasn't.

The story where she featured was only ten paragraphs long, yet so many latch onto this catch-all concept that an empowered woman is inherently bad writing.

Please, it has nothing to do with being an empowered woman. You're acting like no one accuses white heterosexual males of being Mary Sues which just isn't the case. Just because the term was named after a female character does not make it sexist.

Evidence? How about this:

"the label seems to be used more indiscriminately on female characters who do not behave in accordance with the dominant culture's images and expectations for females as opposed to males."

-Bacon-Smith, Camille, Enterprising Women, Television Fandom and the Creation of Popular Myth. Univ. of Pennsylvania Press, 1992.

Smith interviewed a panel of female authors who say they do not include female characters in their stories at all. She quoted one as saying "Every time I've tried to put a woman in any story I've ever written, everyone immediately says, this is a Mary Sue." Smith also pointed out that "Participants in a panel discussion in January 1990 noted with growing dismay that any female character created within the community is damned with the term Mary Sue."

There are parodies of anything, Austin Powers is just that. There are still James Bond films and James Bond as a character is hugely revered and admired without damning criticism. Austin Powers does not parody James Bond's perfection but the idea of a woefully incompetent yet over-confident spy and how the 1960's attitudes are different from the 90's. It doesn't come close to parodying the Bond character, more the trashy tropes of 1960's spy-adventure thrillers.

Mary Sue was not a Captain in her trope establishing 10-paragraphs, just a Lieutenant, the LOWEST officer rank. It seem that Kirk was also still a teenager when he graduated from starfleet and like Mary Sue took command when they were attacked during a planetary survey and a large proportion of the crew were lost but not James T Kirk who took over from the dead captain. His age is not specified but Gene Roddenbury said "his first command was when he quite young". All very Mary Sue, and PRE-DATING the Mary Sue story. 15 years old is NOT the linchpin of the Mary Sue label, it's "The best and the youngest *high-position-here*".

Because it was originally created for author insertion characters in fanfiction. Which Mary Sue was and Captain Kirk wasn't.

Except it is not JUST applied to fan-fiction but all fiction and not just to author insertions as Mary Sue was no more an author insertion than Captain Kirk. How is Mary sue an author insertion yet not James T Kirk?

It is NOT just that it is named after a female character, it's sexist in its inception and its hisotry of use and how it is prone to this day to abuse. It is far easier to damn a female character with the Mary Sue label to stifle work than to use the same label agaisnt male characters... of which it is used against male characters much less often.

 

[[REDACTED]]

Except it is not JUST applied to fan-fiction but all fiction and not just to author insertions as Mary Sue was no more an author insertion than Captain Kirk. How is Mary sue an author insertion yet not James T Kirk?

Like the poster you were quoting said, it's because it was originally a fanfiction-only term that gained wider use over the years. It couldn't be named after Kirk in its original context because Kirk wasn't a fanfiction character. The fact that the use of the word shifted somewhat over the years isn't the fault of the term itself. It just had a different meaning originally.

 

[thebobmaster_v1legacy]

I got a question: Doesn't Alice from the Resident Evil movies count as a Mary Sue?

She isn't in any of the original games (as far as I've read), she's sexy and badass, she's abnormally fast and strong, has incredible reflexes, and she's the main protagonist of a series she doesn't even originally belong in.

I most likely got half of it wrong, though.

You did not get any of that wrong, and it is the reason I don't feel that I can hold up the Resident Evil movies as examples of good video game movies. I enjoy them, don't get me wrong. But like you said, the entire series revolves around one woman being awesome that wasn't even in any of the games.

 

[Durgiun]

So. Why don't you hate Chakats now?

Because back in 2011 I found a thread somewhere that basically said all the things I hated about them and I had both catharsis and closure at the same time. I guess I just felt that I was the only one seeing their bullshit Mary Sueness before that and it pissed me off to no end.

 

[Durgiun]

Chakats.

Anyone who's into the furry subculture will most likely know who I'm talking about.

Basically, they're genetically engineered cat-taur things, they're hermaphrodites, but look female (D cup tits and all), are empathic, can give you super-pleasurable sex (it's furries, don't ask), are all super peaceful and nice and friendly unless you hurt their children, in which case they're stronger, faster, can heal better and can cause you crippling pain with their empathic abilities, their sense of smell is almost as good as a bloodhound's, their hearing superb as is their sense of smell, they can see slightly into the UV and can see almost every detail in what we consider to be pitch black, their tits are made up of a spongy-light tissue so the super big tits don't give them back pain, they're smart, they can give painless birth to children, they're awesome teachers due to their empathic abilities, and if you hate them (which I did and still somewhat do today) you're a horrible, biggoted, judemental person and need to be turned towards the sexy side ad infinitum.

I cannot tell you how much I hated those fucking things two years ago. Anyone remember AM's Hate monologue? I hated them damn near that much, I never hated something like them before or since.

Back in 2010, if my hatred for the Chakats was money, I could pay off a quarter of the US's debt then and there.

Oh god why did you make me remember those abominations! *vomits*

Oh yeah, I also forgot that lovely part where they think that the human taboo against incest is silly and having a child with your sibling isn't something gross and completely stupid.

 

[Teh Jammah]

There's a lot of Mary Sue-ing in 40k I reckon. Ciaphas Cain also springs to mind, for some reason him being within reaching distance of two World Eaters and not getting his puny human face smooshed to a pulp strikes me as ridiculous.

As has been mentioned before a lot of this is based on (and acknowledged by Cain himself) as a shit-load of luck (which to be fair can be easily recognized in terms of the tabletop game on which it's based as the World Eater rolling all ones and Cain rolling all sixes). And to be fair, from what I remember at least one of those was a case of parry-parry-parry-roll out the way and Jurgen kills it with a melta shot.

If Cain was a true Sue it'd have gone; effortless parry-effortless parry-quip about fighting with his off-hand-disarm-head removing flourish.

Cain does have plot armour, but plot armour does not a Sue make.

 

[Flight]

I find River Song to be a particularly massive Mary Sue.

Spoiler

The daughter of two companions? Check (though I find that to be alright on its own). Super-special powers brought on by hitherto-unexplained timey-wimeyness? Check. Horribly angsty past? Check. Improbable brushing-off of said horribly angsty past, including brainwashing? Check. Life wrapped around the main character? Check. Horribly selfish actions (knowingly and willingly putting her own pain before that of the entire universe, only for it to be brushed off and barely touched on? Yep, we're done here.

It's kind of sad, because despite her Sueish traits, I still adored her until the s6 finale. Still, I blame the narrative for all that, not the character herself. And I do love Alex Kingston's portrayal of her. And heck, I even shipped her with Eleven pretty fiercely until s6's mid-season two-parter (A good Man Goes to War/Let's Kill Hitler), which was when I started finding it a little... creepy, shall we say.

I also find the Doctor to have several Stu-ish traits, but being that his character has been developing almost steadily ever since the 1960's, I'm willing to buy into it.

James Bond is someone I find to be an example of a Stu as well.

 

[Blatherscythe]

Chakats.

Anyone who's into the furry subculture will most likely know who I'm talking about.

Basically, they're genetically engineered cat-taur things, they're hermaphrodites, but look female (D cup tits and all), are empathic, can give you super-pleasurable sex (it's furries, don't ask), are all super peaceful and nice and friendly unless you hurt their children, in which case they're stronger, faster, can heal better and can cause you crippling pain with their empathic abilities, their sense of smell is almost as good as a bloodhound's, their hearing superb as is their sense of smell, they can see slightly into the UV and can see almost every detail in what we consider to be pitch black, their tits are made up of a spongy-light tissue so the super big tits don't give them back pain, they're smart, they can give painless birth to children, they're awesome teachers due to their empathic abilities, and if you hate them (which I did and still somewhat do today) you're a horrible, biggoted, judemental person and need to be turned towards the sexy side ad infinitum.

I cannot tell you how much I hated those fucking things two years ago. Anyone remember AM's Hate monologue? I hated them damn near that much, I never hated something like them before or since.

Back in 2010, if my hatred for the Chakats was money, I could pay off a quarter of the US's debt then and there.

Oh god why did you make me remember those abominations! *vomits*

Oh yeah, I also forgot that lovely part where they think that the human taboo against incest is silly and having a child with your sibling isn't something gross and completely stupid.

*Wipes vomit from mouth* Yeah I knew that as well. Chakats are the only anthropomorphic-monstrosity that most furries and non-furries agree must die horribly in a fire, aside from My Little Pony they are the other four legged syphilis sloppily crammed into fan created works.

 

[Durgiun]

Chakats.

Anyone who's into the furry subculture will most likely know who I'm talking about.

Basically, they're genetically engineered cat-taur things, they're hermaphrodites, but look female (D cup tits and all), are empathic, can give you super-pleasurable sex (it's furries, don't ask), are all super peaceful and nice and friendly unless you hurt their children, in which case they're stronger, faster, can heal better and can cause you crippling pain with their empathic abilities, their sense of smell is almost as good as a bloodhound's, their hearing superb as is their sense of smell, they can see slightly into the UV and can see almost every detail in what we consider to be pitch black, their tits are made up of a spongy-light tissue so the super big tits don't give them back pain, they're smart, they can give painless birth to children, they're awesome teachers due to their empathic abilities, and if you hate them (which I did and still somewhat do today) you're a horrible, biggoted, judemental person and need to be turned towards the sexy side ad infinitum.

I cannot tell you how much I hated those fucking things two years ago. Anyone remember AM's Hate monologue? I hated them damn near that much, I never hated something like them before or since.

Back in 2010, if my hatred for the Chakats was money, I could pay off a quarter of the US's debt then and there.

Oh god why did you make me remember those abominations! *vomits*

Oh yeah, I also forgot that lovely part where they think that the human taboo against incest is silly and having a child with your sibling isn't something gross and completely stupid.

*Wipes vomit from mouth* Yeah I knew that as well. Chakats are the only anthropomorphic-monstrosity that most furries and non-furries agree must die horribly in a fire, aside from My Little Pony they are the other four legged syphilis sloppily crammed into fan created works.

At this point I don't actually want the Chakat plague to stop. I want to see it spread, and ravage and twist everything into a sick version of reality, just to see how shit ends up.

Watching a bunch of hypersexual lunatics on the internet create their escapist fantasy is really very fascinating. In the ''psychotic bear eating its young'' kind of way.

 

[Zantos]

There's a lot of Mary Sue-ing in 40k I reckon. Ciaphas Cain also springs to mind, for some reason him being within reaching distance of two World Eaters and not getting his puny human face smooshed to a pulp strikes me as ridiculous.

As has been mentioned before a lot of this is based on (and acknowledged by Cain himself) as a shit-load of luck (which to be fair can be easily recognized in terms of the tabletop game on which it's based as the World Eater rolling all ones and Cain rolling all sixes). And to be fair, from what I remember at least one of those was a case of parry-parry-parry-roll out the way and Jurgen kills it with a melta shot.

If Cain was a true Sue it'd have gone; effortless parry-effortless parry-quip about fighting with his off-hand-disarm-head removing flourish.

Cain does have plot armour, but plot armour does not a Sue make.

Yeah, actually that sounds a bit more like Eisenhorn vs. the emperors children space marine come to think of it. Parry, parry, distract with pretty book, remove head. Come to think of it, that exact move worked later on too. Can't disagree with that sort of track record.

 

[CrazyGirl17]

So many people here don't really get what a Mary Sue character is.

Ah, allow me to explain! A Mary Sue is a character who "is beautiful, perfect", and all of that nonsense. It can be a bit subjective when applied to fictional characters, but this concept is sadly prevelant in fanfiction.

For a more detailed description, look here (be warned, it's on TV Tropes)[link]http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue[/link]

 

[Bifford]

The Doctor feels too flawless to me. In fact, some of the biggest stories of recent years has him suffering for somehow being TOO awesome.

But then again, he does fail occasionally. A recurring them in the show is that he often fails the people closest to him. He is constantly pining about the people he has led to their deaths, and the companions who are left emotionally devastated (though to be fair it often wasn't really his fault).

 

[IamLEAM1983]

So many people here don't really get what a Mary Sue character is.

And what, pray tell, is a Mary Sue? Check TVTropes. Everything in this thread corresponds to either the generic Sue or the more specific variants (Vlllain Sue, Anti-Sue, etv.).

Mary Sues are author proxies, technically, as the term originates with one of Star Trek's writers using Nurse Chalmers as a self-insertion device. The first Mary Sue romanced Kirk, gave lessons to Doctor McCoy, discussed logic and reason with Spock, fought off an alien menace and gave her life for the Enterprise. You couldn't possibly find a sappier example of first-degree character creation.

Today, however, Mary Sues and Marty Stus are generally agreed upon as being any character that's ludicrously empowered, is incapable of failing, constantly acts like a show-stealer and somehow ends up captivating the entirety of the canon cast in any fan work. This doesn't just apply to fanfics, though, seeing as a lot of inexperienced authors can resort to Sue-isms as a form of character development.

Case in point, Twilight. The literary committee behind these books' publication really fell asleep on the job - unless it actually exactly corresponded to something they'd been looking for.

That's terrifying, actually.

Sues are basically a case of someone being clumsy enough to mistake omnipotence for depth and significance. You want omnipotence done right? Try the Q, from Star Trek. Done wrong, and from the same show? Wesley Freaking Crusher. Even Wil Wheaton admits it, nowadays.

 

[liquidsolid]

Walter Jr. from Breaking Bad always struck me as a Mary Sue character. He is one of the worst characters on the show in terms of likability (says a lot on a show full of murderous drug dealers) and defiantly the least interesting. However, he is Walter's son and a big deal in terms of the family unit.

His tenure on the show includes many scenes that seem to have meant to be dramatic but he cannot pull them off. He eats breakfast and says "w-w-w-what's going on?" and that is about all.

 

[Saltarius]

Am I the only one who thinks Dirk Strider is a Mary Sue?

 

[Cranky]

Batman. He is so unpowered he is one. Although I still love it.

 

[Treblaine]

Except it is not JUST applied to fan-fiction but all fiction and not just to author insertions as Mary Sue was no more an author insertion than Captain Kirk. How is Mary sue an author insertion yet not James T Kirk?

Like the poster you were quoting said, it's because it was originally a fanfiction-only term that gained wider use over the years. It couldn't be named after Kirk in its original context because Kirk wasn't a fanfiction character. The fact that the use of the word shifted somewhat over the years isn't the fault of the term itself. It just had a different meaning originally.

It is UTTERLY POINTLESS for this to be limited to fan-works. What makes one immune to this so called literary criticism? How can fan-works be held to a stricter standard than the "official" work?!?! That's backward ass arbitrary nonsense and absolutely NOT THE CASE!

So much backpedaling over decades of sexism with this term, far better to just drop it entirely and give REAL criticisms that go into specific aspects not denigrate such a broad character concept.

thesaurus.com

Here is a good place to start for more useful terms for genuine and fair criticisms.

The Mary Sue term is as outdated a form of criticism as blasphemy.