Hey don't accuse people of ignoring something, I'm still waiting for your explanation about why the Reapers don't use non-violent ways to invade.SajuukKhar said:
Mass Effect 3 ending SPOILERS!
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I feel I need to chime in here, because that is really the most horrible implication of the whole ending.SajuukKhar said:
How many crew members does a ship the size of the Normandy have? You could be very generous and say about 25 (and I think that is really stretching it), and even then it wouldn't matter in the long run. You simply wouldn't have enough genetic material to keep a diverse population for more than a few generations, eventually leading to extensive inbreeding. And considering the loss of FTL, this could go on for centuries.
But that is just the long run consequences, because what about Joker and his disease? I can't imagine him lasting long in a small society with limited resources. And what about Tali and Garrus who aren't able to eat the same food as humans? Are they just going to starve slowly to death? What about the homosexual crew members who will probably be forced to procreate against their sexuality?
All of these implications are one of the main reasons why many people doesn't like this ending. The fact that they happen to involve some of the characters that the players have grown attached to over the years just amplifies this feeling.
they are calling it "magic" because it is brand new in the world of ME at the very last minute. We should have know something was up when we were building a weapon of which we knew nothing about, but for it to work the way it did was magical in the sense that it was an instant fix to the wall the writers hit at the end of the story. Personally i dont mind it too much if it werent being used to shoehorn the same 3 endings. It is becuase the ending left so many unsatisfied that they are now breakind down so many parts of it.synobal said:
The reason (I expect) why people keep using that word for what happened, is that the Mass Effect series had a very good track record of giving an explanation for why everything worked the way it did, even if it was hand-wavy. The crucible doesn't (understandably prior to running into the Citadel-AI), but neither does why that energy can do what it does. Even the most odd parts of indoctrination and stuff like that Bioware offered an explanation for, then had the conclusion use an unexplained device that generated vast sums of energy to be able to do 3 different things based on what Shepard does. Thus it comes off as a lot more "magicy" then the rest.synobal said:
You know what would have made sense?
The Reapers create a spider's web of mass relays across the galaxy, designed to allow organics to propogate themselves across the stars, down the paths created for them, until they reach a population size vast enough for the reapers to emerge from their hibernation and feed on organic life to sustain their own organic/synthetic hybrid existence; they leave less advanced civilisations alone so that the galaxy is a sustainable resource.
Not some shoehorned in bullshit about order and chaos, magic space wands converting organics into borg out of thin fucking air...
Look, what is the reason for the Reaper Cycle?
The Catalyst says that, once created, synthetic life immediately outstrips organic life and will destroy all organic life in the galaxy.
But it is synthetic life (The Catalyst/The Reapers) that is sustaining organic life in the universe via this cycle.
The fact that this solution (the cycles) to the problem (synthetics killing all organics) is based on synthetics preserving organic life invalidates the original premise, that synthetic life will kill all organic life.
It. Makes. No. Sense.
The Reapers create a spider's web of mass relays across the galaxy, designed to allow organics to propogate themselves across the stars, down the paths created for them, until they reach a population size vast enough for the reapers to emerge from their hibernation and feed on organic life to sustain their own organic/synthetic hybrid existence; they leave less advanced civilisations alone so that the galaxy is a sustainable resource.
Not some shoehorned in bullshit about order and chaos, magic space wands converting organics into borg out of thin fucking air...
Look, what is the reason for the Reaper Cycle?
The Catalyst says that, once created, synthetic life immediately outstrips organic life and will destroy all organic life in the galaxy.
But it is synthetic life (The Catalyst/The Reapers) that is sustaining organic life in the universe via this cycle.
The fact that this solution (the cycles) to the problem (synthetics killing all organics) is based on synthetics preserving organic life invalidates the original premise, that synthetic life will kill all organic life.
It. Makes. No. Sense.
Ya I kinda disagree with the whole 'your crew survives and makes a colony. We know they landed (some what roughly) on a planet. We don't know if they stay there, after all the Normandy appears to be mostly intact. I sort of doubt they made a colony there, unless a large portion of the fleet that was fleeing the blast also landed there and there was some reason to say, or they just couldn't leave.Blachman201 said:
Nor do we know if the planet was uninhabited either. Maybe they landed on a planet with an asari colony
I'd like to think I just did.feeqmatic said:
More than one way to skin a cat my man, why damage what you are trying to save it goes against the point of trying to 'protect' sentient life.synobal said:
And no it does make good storytelling, it makes a bad action game but it's fine storytelling. Actually I take it back it made a good game called Mass Effect 2 where the Collectors and, through proxy, the Reapers were using non-violent means to kidnapp colonists. Why not do that again, sure the stasis bugs were neutralised but the Reapers could have easilly come up with a new non-violent way.
Every Mass Relay has a massive Eezo core, that's how they work.SajuukKhar said:
As for relays using up all their energy for the pulse waves, there's a little something called the conservation of energy. It's already established that the destruction of a Mass Relay unleashes enough energy to destroy a solar system and that's how much energy was at work there. It doesn't matter if you change it into a different form of energy.
i dont think the destory ending is as bad as people are making it out to be, yeah all the mass effect relays are destoryed but that doesnt mean galactic civilisation has regressed 50,000 years to the stone age like usual in the cycle. The protheans even managed to make their own mass relay on eden prime within their alotted 50,000 years. Given the tech you see in the normandy and from the other civilisations they too probably arent far off achieving this. id also bet even though the fleets maybe stranded a while i cant imagine thats permenant. So with breaking the cycle and the reliance on reaper tech; the probablity the damage to the galactic infrastructure is merely temporary and that you can potencially have you and squad mates survive id say thats pretty happy consindering the galxay was doomed at the start of the game!
i guess the real issue is closure, people want concrete evidence of what i said or the true long term implications of your desision and that really just could have been a cut scene, a voice over or even just some text like at the end of dragon age origins. An extra bit of DLC set a couple of years later mopping the remnants of the mess whilst having a character even just in passing mention saying 'have you been to the turian built relay?/ the councils new building project' or something to that effect about how your squad mates have done since would solve this and given the message bioware gives you at the end 'further his legend by playing DLC' i'd say its likely, bit naughty we have to pay for it though.
i guess the real issue is closure, people want concrete evidence of what i said or the true long term implications of your desision and that really just could have been a cut scene, a voice over or even just some text like at the end of dragon age origins. An extra bit of DLC set a couple of years later mopping the remnants of the mess whilst having a character even just in passing mention saying 'have you been to the turian built relay?/ the councils new building project' or something to that effect about how your squad mates have done since would solve this and given the message bioware gives you at the end 'further his legend by playing DLC' i'd say its likely, bit naughty we have to pay for it though.
1. The Catalyst doesn't use "space magic" to enact whatever choice you picked, Shepard does. Furthermore the Catalyst was an AI built within the limitations of The Reapers who, at the time of its creation, didn't know how, or simply couldn't, merge Organics with synthetics and thus built The Catalyst to do what they knew worked.feeqmatic said:
Secondly destroying the relays doesn't further its goal, but then again it didn't destroy the relays, Shepard did. As the Catalyst pointed out the fact Shepard was able to reach it shows that the cycle as it has been will not work anymore, and so gave the decision to of what to do to the person who proved himself above the cycle and thus his better.
The destruction of the relays was not intentional, it was a side affect of the necessary expenditure of energy to enacting whatever choice Shepard picked.
Why you keep implying the Catalyst is enacting the 3 endings when it is Shepard doing it is beyond me. Also why you cant understand that a computer can't go beyond its programming without help is also beyond me. It strikes me as you didn't pay much attention to what happened.
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2. Except that your decision are not rendered moot by galactic civilization getting destroyed.
1. The Korgrans don't suddenly become re-infected, or unaffected, with the genophage
2. The Rachnai don't just come back to life or die
3. The geth and Quarrains don't suddenly come back to life/die/make peace/ stay fighting
by destroying the relays.
Just because the Krgans don't rampage across the galaxy with their new numbers, the Rachnai don't invade again, and the quarrians/Geth start fighting again doesn't mean the things you did to them wont be remembered or still have an affect.
Beyond that the fleet wouldn't need to make it back as most of the people are on the homeworld already, as needing a place to leave their civilians was the entire point of them not wanting to help fight the reapers in ME2, why you assume that they had their entire civilization on the fleet at the time is beyond me.
Thirdly as has been pointed out countless times before the big choices, the ones that would have an affect in the long run, still play out even with the destruction of the mass relays, just because they don't give you a pop-up saying what happened to the quarrians doesn't mean nothing happened.
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3. It isn't a last minute development, the Mass Relays were stated several times in the series to have the biggest element zero cores and the biggest power producers in the galaxy, their ability to enact a giant pulse wave is far from dues ex machina.
Also how is there no indication on where he came from? he was built by whoever built The Reapers and/or whatever race became the first reapers. That is a understood.
Thirdly we don't know how much time the conversation between Shepard and the Catalyst takes. He could have been there for an hour for all we know. beyond that the Normandy can make it in and out of a system in less then 30 minutes, spaceships do move REALLY fast.
The Normandy was able to use a relay, move close to a planet while avoiding Geth ships, drop Shepard off, and get back to Earth in less then a hours time in ME1. getting to pluto in 30mintus isn't anywhere that illogical.
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4. What are the standards for an ending that befits a trilogy? ohh wait there isnt any, its solely a subjective decision.
And it was established at the end of ME3 that it requires ALL the energy of ALL the mass relays to get this thing to work.KingofMadCows said:
The energy of the element zero core is drained 100% to make the pulse, and to send the beam to the next relay so it can do it also.
No energy has vanished, it has been converted into the pulse wave that enacts the choice, and thus there is no energy left in the actual relay to cause a supernova.
Non-violent means I mean, look they are trying to turn sentient life in to that sludge to preserve it, which is stupid but whatever, so why kill these things that you are turning in to sludge if you want to preserve it. You could say you can't make an omlet without breaking a few eggs but the way the Reapers act there won't be any eggs left.synobal said:
The Reapers just don't make sense, it was Bioware trying to do a unique spin without thinking about the logic behind the Reapers actions in ME1 and ME2. You can't look at those 2 games and say Bioware had planned the Reaper's origins from the begining, it stinks of retcon and because of poor planning the whole series starts to peel away everytime you try to analyse it. I don't care how the game ended I just care about how little the Reapers make sense.
Indeed in fact if I had to guess I'd say the Asasi might of already been able to create their own relays but they had no need to, there was all of these awesome relays just laying around for you to use ya know?Hypermini said:
Maybe that might of helped with all these gripes, but where people see 'doom and gloom' in these endings I see possibilities all of them very exciting and I can't wait for the next story in the Mass Effect universe.
Indeed the reapers don't make sense because they are machines, they see organic life as organic life, they don't really make a distinction between individuals. That is why them actually addressing Shepherd as Shepherd is a huge deal.Deathninja19 said:
In the reapers mind they are saving 'organic' life by destroying all the civilizations that are advanced enough to make synthetics that might one day destroy all organic life. The reapers in their mind are the good guys because they are trying to preserve 'organic life' as a whole.
It doesn't matter if they routinely commit galaxy wide genocide every 50k years.
They also excuse this by saying they are turning people into the ultimate form of evolution, the ultimate beings. Creating a deity out of the collective members of an entire race. It is totally messed up logic but it is machine logic that is alien and foreign to us. Something the reapers always were.
Out of all the aliens in Mass Effect the Reapers are the most Alien.
And that would mean the pulse wave has the power to destroy a solar system. It doesn't matter if you convert the power of a nuclear bomb into alpha radiation, beta radiation, gamma radiation, heat, electricity, or kinetic energy, it's still the power of a nuclear bomb.SajuukKhar said: