Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[endtherapture]

Not a bad watch.

The bodies thing is new to me, very creepy. Bioware already had body textures to use from ME2 and they didn't use them, so it can't be put down to laziness?

Shame he didn't mention James' comment about the "buzzing" in the Normandy.

I wish IT was true, but I honestly don't think Bioware had the writing chops to think of it

 

[StormShaun]

Not a bad watch.

The bodies thing is new to me, very creepy. Bioware already had body textures to use from ME2 and they didn't use them, so it can't be put down to laziness?

Shame he didn't mention James' comment about the "buzzing" in the Normandy.

I wish IT was true, but I honestly don't think Bioware had the writing chops to think of it

Wait, I thought he did mention the "humming" on the Normandy. You saw that scene early in the video.

And I think half and half, Bioware might of put this in for us and we'll find out and then they will give us a better ending. Or it's just total bad story and a quick chop ending due to EA.

I say Bioware shouldn't care but they should just give us a good ending. D:<

Hell we deserve it after three games.

 

[endtherapture]

Not a bad watch.

The bodies thing is new to me, very creepy. Bioware already had body textures to use from ME2 and they didn't use them, so it can't be put down to laziness?

Shame he didn't mention James' comment about the "buzzing" in the Normandy.

I wish IT was true, but I honestly don't think Bioware had the writing chops to think of it

Wait, I thought he did mention the "humming" on the Normandy. You saw that scene early in the video.

And I think half and half, Bioware might of put this in for us and we'll find out and then they will give us a better ending. Or it's just total bad story and a quick chop ending due to EA.

I say Bioware shouldn't care but they should just give us a good ending. D:<

Hell we deserve it after three games.

I just hope the new DLC will continue the game. In an ideal world, if you chose Synthesis/Control you'll take over an indoctrinated Shepard and finish the fight for the Reapers, killing your friends and teammates. If you chose control you can finish the fight actually.

If there's no gameplay that will just be lazy, they have the entire ME3 team to call upon for this DLC and a good few months to make stuff, so it better be good. If The Witcher 2 team can release free DLCs with significant gameplay portions, so can Bioware.

 

[Vault101]

That would've been a worse ending. A blatantly bad ending, instead of the vague bad ending we got. If the relays were slowly tearing apart the universe why did THE REAPERS MAKE THEM?!

so aliens could adancace..so they could harvest...so they could stop organics from creating synthetics...to stop synthetics wiping out organics....soo.....fucked if I know (mabye the universe needs a recovery period)

Fan theories are almost always great. The Indoctrination Theory is just a great example of what fans will go through and how deep they'll go to get the answers they want.

well thats nicer than "GET OVER IT AND STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!!!" answers

Not a bad watch.

The bodies thing is new to me, very creepy. Bioware already had body textures to use from ME2 and they didn't use them, so it can't be put down to laziness?

Shame he didn't mention James' comment about the "buzzing" in the Normandy.

I wish IT was true, but I honestly don't think Bioware had the writing chops to think of it

I think he did..or at least showed a small clip of it

yeah..that creeped me out...they hardly even looked like bodies, I think I may have even noticed some bodies wearing pheonix armour that looked out of place (in the "citadel") but Im not sure

interestingly i think in ME1 (please correct if wrong) when you actually have to choose your squad member to die no matter what you outfitted them with they will be wearing their default armour in that once scene...weird, but I doubt its related,just a technical issue probably

I just hope the new DLC will continue the game. In an ideal world, if you chose Synthesis/Control you'll take over an indoctrinated Shepard and finish the fight for the Reapers, killing your friends and teammates. If you chose control you can finish the fight actually.

If there's no gameplay that will just be lazy, they have the entire ME3 team to call upon for this DLC and a good few months to make stuff, so it better be good. If The Witcher 2 team can release free DLCs with significant gameplay portions, so can Bioware.

Id be thankful for ANYTHING as long as it was decent....even not having acontrol of an indoctrinated shepard as he/she offs your love interest would be brutal

 

[Vault101]

Hell we deserve it after three games.

ENTITLED!!!!!!!....just kidding

 

[370999]

With indoc theory, what is the actual ending? Can you not see how horribly horribly inconclusive it is to not only say "It was all a dream" but to not even bother with that and just imply it, to end the story before the hero wakes up?

Everything only makes sense if you work on the premise that nothing will make sense because of indoctrination, it is entirely recursive and artificial, where it devolves into grabbing what fits and just using the blanket term of "indoctrination" to force everything to fit together.

So yeah, it's better then the actual ending. But it really isn't a good thing. It was all a dream should be avoided as much as possible.

I think the Idea is that shepard "wakes up" and then runs off to go do the REAL ending..(new ending DLC?)

the 1# I dont get is shepards "waking up" scene just before the credits roll

that said though, its still up in the air waether or nor this new "DLC" will do anything, all we can hope for is answers

#

Except sadly Vault we know that isn't going to happen, the ending is going to be "expanded upon". Uggghhh.

So yeah what you seem to mean here is that the indoc theory is very much dependent on their being a DLC ending released that accepted it's premise and then worked on from their.

At the moment that seems unlikely so it's a huge point against the theory.

 

[Apollo45]

Bull fucking shit. The indoctrination theory is just mental gymnastics in a vain attempt to see something that isn't there.

1. Sound effects are sound effects.

2. Dreams are dreams. recurring nightmares are common.

3. Transitions are transitions. They are reused time and time again.

4. blurred eyesight is a common trope. Its atmosphere, a tactic to limit the draw on the computer.

5. The change in distance is just laziness.

6. a pre-determined armor at the beam is a time constraint. making different textures for the same armor is easy. Making it for the very end sequence would serve no purpose. It would be easier to say the paint was burned off. Even the GUNS are different in cutscenes. The dead bodies are a design oversight.

7. The bodies are there because the game itself explained they beamed the bodies up into the citadel. Not only that, but repeat models in piles are a common way to save time in development. Don't believe me? Look at the MANY piles of bodies in Left 4 dead 1 & 2. If valve cant make everything unique, then Bioware cant. You won't even notice it anyway.

Know what? I am going to stop right here. Its just fallacy after fallacy.

I mean really. Is it not sad enough that the ending of ME3 was bad? Must we pull conspiracy theories out of our collective asses so we may delude ourselves that it was something brooding and deep?

Must we be in denial?

Bioware dropped the literary ball on its series's defining moment. That's all there is to it. Now can we please move on?

The thing is, for a good writer, all of those things can be used to convey something. Whether that's a point, or foreshadowing for a twist, or anything like that. For a good writer, these things would be the perfect visual cues to hint at exactly what the Indoctrination Theory is.

Unfortunately, I don't think BioWare realized that when they were making these. It really was just laziness that was so bad it ended up very nearly becoming good again, if they had only taken a moment to see exactly what they were making.

 

[Vault101]

Except sadly Vault we know that isn't going to happen, the ending is going to be "expanded upon". Uggghhh.

So yeah what you seem to mean here is that the indoc theory is very much dependent on their being a DLC ending released that accepted it's premise and then worked on from their.

At the moment that seems unlikely so it's a huge point against the theory.

"expanded upon" could mean anything....if I were to go out on a limb I'd say the fact is WTIHOUT indoctrination the thing seems an unsalvagle mess in terms of plot holes and making sense...which "in a way" could mean something for the theory

but as you said, and as Ive said time and time again...its too good to be true

.

Unfortunately, I don't think BioWare realized that when they were making these. It really was just laziness that was so bad it ended up very nearly becoming good again, if they had only taken a moment to see exactly what they were making.

it seems waay too specific for thease screw ups to be unintentional...the possvbility that they fucked up so bad they almost created somthing amazing..well its somthing allright

 

[Proverbial Jon]

[b/]*MASSIVE BIG FLAMESHEILD*[/b]

I know you guys don't want anymore Mass effect 3 threads, I know the horse no longer exists but instead has been sumoned and destroyed in every spiritual/physical way and that it is no longer a horse but a horse shaped black hole that is sucking everything in around it

but there is one reason, and that is this guy made a 90 minute "documentry" (almost) explaining an analysing indoctrination theory

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

mabye your sold in indoctrination theory

mabye your not

mabye you don't know what it is but I'm just going to leave this here


its a long one so grab some pop-corn (I dont know about anyone but I find this stuff facinating)

Just when I had all but forgotten about this... you come along and force me to watch a 90 minute documentary on the subject... damn!

But seriously, I was a firm supporter of the Indoctrination Theory from the moment I heard it. By far the most compelling evidence is the Rachni Queen's description of "oily shadows" that just can't be mere coincidence.

I also have some ideas to add to this rather comprehensive video:

The Anderson/TIM confrontation

Let's go with the indoctrination theory for a moment and assume that both Anderson and the Illusive Man are figments of Shepard's immagination and essentially represent both the good and bad sides of Shepard's mind.

When we watch that scene it seems clear that the three people in the room are talking between themselves. But let's just alter that slightly shall we... how about we say that both Anderson and TIM are talking directly to Shepard and NOT to each other. Look at Anderson's lines now, remember he's talking directly to Shepard...

"They're controlling you."

"Listen to yourself. You're indoctrinated."

If both of these men are just part of Shepard's mind, why would Anderson tell one half that he is indoctrinated? It sounds more like a warning aimed directly AT Shepard.


The Red, Blue, Green ending colours.

Blue = Paragon and The Alliance
Red = Renegade and Cerberus/Reapers
Green = Middle Ground and the Protheans

Remember how the Prothean VIs were always green? Notice how the green option is synthesis, the combination of organic and synthetics? What did the Protheans do during their cycle? That's right, they took all races and subdued them, combining many races into their own giant empire. Esentially synthesis. Significant? Who knows?

 

[spartandude]

If you need a video longer than the ending itself to explain the ending, you have failed.

this is generally a sounds rule

 

[Jitters Caffeine]

Fan theories are almost always great. The Indoctrination Theory is just a great example of what fans will go through and how deep they'll go to get the answers they want.

well thats nicer than "GET OVER IT AND STOP LIKING WHAT I DON'T LIKE!!!" answers

It wasn't meant to be a snide remark. I love the Indoctrination Theory. It's an in depth and seemingly well thought out explanation of what's going on through the series, and could even explain why the Council is so reluctant to help Shepard through the series if we're only seeing what HE/SHE sees and not what's actually happening. If it turns out to be true, then it just proves that Bioware really are the masters of storytelling and really know how to turn around a tough situation like having all their work viciously scrutinized by their fans and after setbacks like all the leaks they had during production.

It just goes to show that the BEST and WORST thing a game/show/book/movie series can have are fans.

 

[Jynthor]

I still don't believe the Indoctrination Theory.
And I wish people would stop bring up Shepard's eyes. Shepard has had those implants since the start of ME2, they show up when you play Renegade. And when your face gets burned off I'm pretty sure they will show even as a Paragon.

 

[worldruler8]

*sigh* I'll watch it when I get the time, but it doesn't make sense for a company that has been so unsubtle with their work to suddenly be subtle. The main issue I have with the IT theory is that if everything after Harbinger's beam was a "dream", than we go from an ending that did resolution terribly, to one that doesn't resolve anything. The issue with this is that this ending (well, interpretation of the ending) implies that the story wasn't so much a story of the world through Shepard (which I think is the case) and more a story of Shepard, and all the shit happening is just sort of there. Although I do admire the amount of work, and at first I did start to think the people proposing the theory are on to something, but than I realized that throughout the series, everything in the story was taken at face-value first, metaphorical-value second. In this one, face-value makes absolutely NO sense, and why would you have an extensive dream sequence in a game where we are Shepard? It doesn't make sense to do that, since all of our Shepards are different, and chances are we will reach a point where we think a different way than Shepard is thinking. So if TIM is actually the "Reapers" telling you to not destroy them, why can you have him kill himself? Why would we be given the option to destroy the Reapers in this indoc dream? Although the questions I have are less plot-intensive than with the ending taken at face-value, I find it more likely the ending is just a poor ending than one this extensive one. If Bioware wanted to make that ending, everyone would know, and this amount of analysis wouldn't discover the indoc theory, it would already be apparent.

 

[JamesStone]

and since he put in so much effort, and since it brings some new (albeit small) stuff to the table I think it deserves a look...

No, no it doesn't. It's still tripe, even if it's anal, minutia-laden tripe.

Come on, folks. Pro or against the indoctrination theory, just admit: Bioware doesn't make good stories. Your expectations were built up in your head and NOTHING can compare.

why?

with indoctriantion theory everything makes sense

without it...NOTHING makes sense

does that make it true? no of coarse not..does it make it interesting? damn right it does, the ending might be bad but it gave way to all this speculation, somthing "good" came out of it at least

liek I said, Im only "skeptical" becas=use I think its just that unlikley some so brilliant could be true, but that doesnt mean I dont enjoy looking into it

and it has NOTHING to do with expectations, no matter how high low or normal your expectations were the ending jsut fucks with you in so many ways...the fact that it goes against lore as well...

...untill Bioware comes out with its DLC I just cant take the ending at facr vaule, its just too non-sensical

so in other words, why try and rain on people parade? (other than the fact yoru sick of ME3 threads)

With indoc theory, what is the actual ending? Can you not see how horribly horribly inconclusive it is to not only say "It was all a dream" but to not even bother with that and just imply it, to end the story before the hero wakes up?

Everything only makes sense if you work on the premise that nothing will make sense because of indoctrination, it is entirely recursive and artificial, where it devolves into grabbing what fits and just using the blanket term of "indoctrination" to force everything to fit together.

So yeah, it's better then the actual ending. But it really isn't a good thing. It was all a dream should be avoided as much as possible.

The ending is: Red: Shepard fights indocrination, goes to the panel and uses the Catalyst (The Citadel's massive arrays) to hard reset every synthetic in the galaxy, or, if you have enough EMS, the Reapers only, causing an overload and destroying them. Shepard Lives in the best case scenario.
Blue: Shepard gets indocrinated. Best case scenario: Shepard shoots himself in the head to stun Harbinger, allowing the fleets to destroy him. Before dying, Shepard transfers the Crucible activation to the Normandy.
Green: Shepard becomes the core of the Reaper, being his conscience. He talks to Harbinger in his mind. Best case scenario: Shepard fights back, destroying one reaper or two before activating the Crucible.

All fan fiction endings. All great endings IMO, and they are based in the indocrination theory.

 

[Woodsey]

snip

Yes, and the screen distortion, vague black-tentacle-shadow-things appearing at the side of the screen, along with the Reaper noises in the distance, and Shepard clutching at his head, all when no Reapers are around, is laziness/stupidity/accidental/MEANINGLESSOHGODITSALLMEANINGLESS too.

Not so hot on the indoctrination ending.

To quote Shamus Young:

I think that would be better than the ending we got, but I don?t think it it was ever intended by the writers. This theory involves an incredible level of subtle symbolism, which goes against just how ham-fisted the rest of the story is. To wit: If these writers thought Shepard was indoctrinated in the last stage of the game, we would know it.

Still, love all the investigating and whatnot going into all this. Seeing so many people really get into a game's story and lore is great to see. Wish it happened more often, but I'm glad it's happening nonetheless.

The way I see it, there's more than enough there to hold the theory up, and even if it wasn't what they intended, there comes a point when it doesn't actually matter. It's interesting that people are perfectly happy to have alternate interpretations with other works (books, films, games, whatever), but with this the only option is that it was stupid.

Likewise, whilst Mass Effect has never had the most deft writing, it's never come within a mile of the retardation that the ending requires unless you assume that there's more than just what's at face value at work.

And the theory really doesn't require THAT much symbolism; you can certainly have it incorporate a lot of symbolism, but you can still chalk that up to a bit of good luck. But it doesn't really matter when there's the aforementioned sequence with black tentacles creeping at the side of the screen, screen distortion, and Reaper noises in the distance. I mean, everything else is just supplementary to the fact that we are shown on screen that Shepard is quite clearly having his head fucked with. (Funnily enough, this is also the point which is the least brought up.)

snip

I think the point is that they're quite clearly blue when Shepard's implants are red. I chose Destruction anyway though, so I've not seen it.

 

[x EvilErmine x]

I watched it and I still fully support indoctrination theory.

I'm not looking forward to the extended dlc to be perfectly honest,but it will be funny to see how they will dig their hole deeper with the explanations regarding the presumably unchanged ending.

I agree with this. And I also fully support the indoctrination theory. Things would make a lot more sense if they went with it. But they don't seem to be doing it, so this might be just one of those fan dreams that will never come true.

I don't care, though, the indoctrination is canon for my Shepard. After he resisted, he woke up and kicked some Reaper ass and everyone was cheering his name. Then he went to Rannoch and lived happily ever after with Tali. And had a beer with Garrus and Vega.

If you need a video longer than the ending itself to explain the ending, you have failed.

I don't get it. Why is it a failure, again? Because it's longer than the ending itself? What?

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

 

[TotalerKrieger]

Everything in the video makes logical sense, but it can all be written off by incompetence on Bioware's part. The texture file named "dream foliage" is however the first piece of objective evidence which does imply that the ending may not be the in-game reality. I think Bioware should just go ahead and delve into the IT head first..it would be awesome and hilarious all at once.

 

[Vault101]

Basically it means that the ending should be self contained and wrap up any lingering plot points that remain. You should not need a video that is longer than the actual ending of the story to explain what happens in the ending of the story. The exception to this rule is if you are setting up a sequel...which considering that ME3 was supposed to be the conclusion of the story arch, is not the case here hence the extreme levels of fail.

people have spent countless hours analysing and disucssing all kinds of works..taking longer than the actual work itself I hardly see the problem

besides I think "IT" works on the Idea the ending is still unfinished