Mass Effect 3, Indoctrination theory (new and extended)

[Zen Toombs]

YOU.....your not suposed to disagree with me

kidding, where is his inconsistansies with the lore?

also the bodie thing...that was creepy..really

Come now, it's part of my ineffable charm!

Anyways, I don't recall the specifics of his lore mistakes but I recall noticing several of them. The one I can recall was a minor one - as he said, Humanity is the only species to be Reaperified.... in this cycle. It was mentioned several times that the Reapers choose advanced species to be mushed into new Reapers, and I believe that it was mentioned that they tend to choose one species a cycle.

Also, the thing with the bodies is pretty creepy. No matter what the results are, I find it very odd that they chose the piles of bodies to be made up of what looks like clones of Kaiden and Ash.

To wrap up, I don't have an issue with the Indoctrination Theory, and actually hold it to be true until Bioware creates something that explains the ending better. However, this particular person bothered me and only brought up a handful of things that haven't been brought up before. And in less time.

 

[Vault101]

Come now, it's part of my ineffable charm!

Anyways, I don't recall the specifics of his lore mistakes but I recall noticing several of them. The one I can recall was a minor one - as he said, Humanity is the only species to be Reaperified.... in this cycle. It was mentioned several times that the Reapers choose advanced species to be mushed into new Reapers, and I believe that it was mentioned that they tend to choose one species a cycle.

Also, the thing with the bodies is pretty creepy. No matter what the results are, I find it very odd that they chose the piles of bodies to be made up of what looks like clones of Kaiden and Ash.

To wrap up, I don't have an issue with the Indoctrination Theory, and actually hold it to be true until Bioware creates something that explains the ending better. However, this particular person bothered me and only brought up a handful of things that haven't been brought up before. And in less time.

ahh..fair enough, that is true, however mabye he was only refering to THIS cycle,,we were the chosen specid of the cycle (obviously)

I dont know..but I MIGHT have noticed some rather "out-of-place" looking bodies with pheonix armour in the "citadel"

but the bodies thingn creepes me out..they didnt even look liek piles of bodies, and even then they looked out of place...were they suposed to actually "look" like Kaiden/ashley (even though its really really REALLY hard to tell) because them being bald freaked me out as well

what Im saying is after watching that Video I was freaked out

 

[Zen Toombs]

ahh..fair enough, that is true, however mabye he was only refering to THIS cycle,,we were the chosen specid of the cycle (obviously)

I dont know..but I MIGHT have noticed some rather "out-of-place" looking bodies with pheonix armour in the "citadel"

but the bodies thingn creepes me out..they didnt even look liek piles of bodies, and even then they looked out of place...were they suposed to actually "look" like Kaiden/ashley (even though its really really REALLY hard to tell) because them being bald freaked me out as well

what Im saying is after watching that Video I was freaked out

I listened for if he was just talking about this cycle, and he wasn't. Unless I'm deaf or something, which is entirely possible.

As for the bodies, if they really are based upon the models of Kaiden and Ash[footnote]And it really looks like that is the case[/footnote], there's no way that it wasn't intentional. They could use ANYTHING for the bodies. They had to choose those models specifically, especially because they don't appear to be the Mass Effect 3 models of the characters.

Anyways, it's nice to see you again Vault. Anything else you've been up to?

 

[Vault101]

I listened for if he was just talking about this cycle, and he wasn't. Unless I'm deaf or something, which is entirely possible.

As for the bodies, if they really are based upon the models of Kaiden and Ash[footnote]And it really looks like that is the case[/footnote], there's no way that it wasn't intentional. They could use ANYTHING for the bodies. They had to choose those models specifically, especially because they don't appear to be the Mass Effect 3 models of the characters.

Anyways, it's nice to see you again Vault. Anything else you've been up to?

really? its not just the armour? because them being "bald" really ups the creep factor

Ive been connecting the ending of ME3 to a worlwide game industry conspiracy to end christmas..but other than that not much

 

[Zen Toombs]

Ive been connecting the ending of ME3 to a worlwide game industry conspiracy to end christmas..but other than that not much

*Hugs* I've missed you Vault. :3

Honestly, it's been far too long.

 

[TomLikesGuitar]

snip about me being a dick

Okay you got me, I was being extra dickish because I made an assumption about your stance. This is becoming a heated debate and I let that get the best of me, so I'm sorry.

However, I really don't see the instances in which he used circular logic. In a somewhat imperfect manner, he takes specific tidbits of information and tries to make them fit the bill of IT. He rarely uses definitive words and often second guesses even himself, and I consider his evaluation to be thorough and fair.

EDIT:

Anyways, I don't recall the specifics of his lore mistakes but I recall noticing several of them. The one I can recall was a minor one - as he said, Humanity is the only species to be Reaperified.... in this cycle. It was mentioned several times that the Reapers choose advanced species to be mushed into new Reapers, and I believe that it was mentioned that they tend to choose one species a cycle.

He says humanity is the only species to have a full blown reaper based on them, which is actually true.

 

[pearcinator]

See the number one problem with the indoctrination theory is that if you had a low reputation meter (or whatever it's called) at the end you will only have the destroy option.
Why would the Reapers give you the only option that lets you win? Especially since it's under the circumstances that you technically have the least amount of willpower.
If you got all three choices no matter what then I would be willing to except the theory as plausible.
I really wanted to believe that they had secretly been building towards this ending when I saw the first video. I wanted to believe their writers were geniuses.

But because of that one big flaw in the theory, I cannot believe it.

Well...let's counter your counter-argument.

I am guessing that indoctrinating someone is exhausting for reapers to do and they only do it when necessary. Why else did Sovereign's shields go down when you killed Saren in ME1? Because the reaper put a lot of energy into indoctrinating Saren.

Now, lets say that reapers put a lot of energy into indoctrinating someone like Saren, Illusive Man and Shepard. If you have a low amount of war assets, the reapers are confident they are going to beat you and your pitiful army and don't think it's necessary to expend energy in indoctrinating Shepard.

Another point to note is that if Bioware planned the IT all along and are planning to bring out 'The Truth' dlc or whatever...they would want everyone to be given the chance at defeating the reapers. People who rushed through the story get only the destroy ending because it's the only one that will allow them to beat the indoctrination.

The higher the war assets the more 'afraid' the reapers are at going to lose so they give you more options to choose from in order to improve their odds in indoctrinating Shepard. If Shepard gets indoctrinated (by picking control or synthesis) then the reapers win.

 

[Zen Toombs]

Okay you got me, I was being extra dickish because I made an assumption about your stance. This is becoming a heated debate and I let that get the best of me, so I'm sorry.

No worries, we're cool.

Anyways, I don't recall the specifics of his lore mistakes but I recall noticing several of them. The one I can recall was a minor one - as he said, Humanity is the only species to be Reaperified.... in this cycle. It was mentioned several times that the Reapers choose advanced species to be mushed into new Reapers, and I believe that it was mentioned that they tend to choose one species a cycle.

He says humanity is the only species to have a full blown reaper based on them, which is actually true.

No, humanity is the only species in this cycle. The [human]Reaper looks human because (according to EDI in Mass Effect 2) every Reaper has a core that looks like the species it's based upon, and the outer shell always looks roughly the same.

 

[RedDeadFred]

See the number one problem with the indoctrination theory is that if you had a low reputation meter (or whatever it's called) at the end you will only have the destroy option.
Why would the Reapers give you the only option that lets you win? Especially since it's under the circumstances that you technically have the least amount of willpower.
If you got all three choices no matter what then I would be willing to except the theory as plausible.
I really wanted to believe that they had secretly been building towards this ending when I saw the first video. I wanted to believe their writers were geniuses.

But because of that one big flaw in the theory, I cannot believe it.

Well...let's counter your counter-argument.

I am guessing that indoctrinating someone is exhausting for reapers to do and they only do it when necessary. Why else did Sovereign's shields go down when you killed Saren in ME1? Because the reaper put a lot of energy into indoctrinating Saren.

Now, lets say that reapers put a lot of energy into indoctrinating someone like Saren, Illusive Man and Shepard. If you have a low amount of war assets, the reapers are confident they are going to beat you and your pitiful army and don't think it's necessary to expend energy in indoctrinating Shepard.

Another point to note is that if Bioware planned the IT all along and are planning to bring out 'The Truth' dlc or whatever...they would want everyone to be given the chance at defeating the reapers. People who rushed through the story get only the destroy ending because it's the only one that will allow them to beat the indoctrination.

The higher the war assets the more 'afraid' the reapers are at going to lose so they give you more options to choose from in order to improve their odds in indoctrinating Shepard. If Shepard gets indoctrinated (by picking control or synthesis) then the reapers win.

I dunno. I guess this works but it just seems highly unlikely. It just sounds like grasping for straws. If this is really what they intended, then well done for them but I really doubt it.

 

[Smeggs]

The only reason any of the stuff in the game points to indoctrination is because originally the devs had planned a sequence near the end where Shepard could become fully indoctrinated, but ultimately cut it from the end-game due to-according to them-gameplay problems with the mechanic.

So, the fact of the matter is that the Marauder Shields joke has more of a chance of being the true ending than the indoctrination theory, as Bioware themselves said they'd cut it out.

 

[spartandude]

To wrap up, I don't have an issue with the Indoctrination Theory, and actually hold it to be true until Bioware creates something that explains the ending better. However, this particular person bothered me and only brought up a handful of things that haven't been brought up before. And in less time.

while i disagree with indoctrination theory (tbh i just think they fucked up) but i have to agree that this guy was annoying as hell, all the other videos about it were good (didnt convince me but good) but man this did just piss me off

 

[Zen Toombs]

while i disagree with indoctrination theory (tbh i just think they fucked up) but i have to agree that this guy was annoying as hell, all the other videos about it were good (didnt convince me but good) but man this did just piss me off

I can relate to that, but I have issue with the idea that Bioware screwing up something that should have been un-screw-up-able this badly. Anyway,

Spoiler: if you think this particular video is bad, you should look at some of the debunking Indoctrination Theory videos. They are 8 times worse.

if you think this particular video is bad, you should look at some of the debunking Indoctrination Theory videos. They are 8 times worse.

Oops, I turned that 90 degrees.

 

[SweetLiquidSnake]

The only thing worse than making another ME3 post, is the Masshole that spent 90 minutes blabbing about the Indoctrination Theory. They cry because they spent 100 hours playing and sculpting their story only to have it destroyed in minutes, so instead of cutting their losses and moving on they spend another 100 crying about it. Like playing another game already!! Jesus Christ.....

crying?...oh for fucks sake...strawman strikes again

but apoligies..we should just be talking about how much we hate ME3 and EA instead I supose

Um no I'm saying to stop talking about ME3 and EA altogether. Move on with life. I beat ME3 100%, then I played a DBZ game and now I bought prototype 2.

These people think they are in this mythical war of good and evil where if they ***** enough they will bring down the tyrant that is EA, but all that happens is EA still makes money and they just waste their breath.

The point I'm making is stop crying about the ending, stop crying about Bioware and stop crying about EA.

 

[Vault101]

The only thing worse than making another ME3 post, is the Masshole that spent 90 minutes blabbing about the Indoctrination Theory. They cry because they spent 100 hours playing and sculpting their story only to have it destroyed in minutes, so instead of cutting their losses and moving on they spend another 100 crying about it. Like playing another game already!! Jesus Christ.....

crying?...oh for fucks sake...strawman strikes again

but apoligies..we should just be talking about how much we hate ME3 and EA instead I supose

Um no I'm saying to stop talking about ME3 and EA altogether. Move on with life. I beat ME3 100%, then I played a DBZ game and now I bought prototype 2.

These people think they are in this mythical war of good and evil where if they ***** enough they will bring down the tyrant that is EA, but all that happens is EA still makes money and they just waste their breath.

The point I'm making is stop crying about the ending, stop crying about Bioware and stop crying about EA.

your just making shit up in your head...no ones crying over anything, no ones spending all their time reasearching indoctrination theory and peopel have "moved on"

its just a video...if somone watches a documentry on WW2 do I tell them to stop crying about it? no, they are just watching it because it has particular interest to them

 

[Joos]

The only main point that I am willing to concede as to have merit is the fact that in the "destroy" ending, Shepard survives and wakes up in London. However, if everything else is just a dream or part of some trauma hallucination from being blasted by Harbinger, we still have no idea what so ever of what has really happened.

All I can say is that it is all very confusing. But I really like reading about peoples interpretation of the endings.

However, one thing about all of these things strikes me as odd:

The reapers are created of the genetic stock by the advanced biologic races of that particular cycle. Presumably, Sovereign was the Reaper based off the Protheans (speculation). Wouldn't that ultimately mean that the Reapers themselves already are Machine/Biologic hybrids? I am not sure what sort of implications this has in regards to the ending in ME3, but it has always struck me as quite intriguing.

And on a different note; even though all the Reapers would be unique since they are all based on different genetic stock throughout the cycles, they all look the same. Ie as smaller or similar sized version of Harbinger.

But in the ending of ME2, we can see the reaper based on our DNA looks like a giant human. This might well be based on the dark matter theory that was ditched for ME3, but Bioware obviously meant for humanity to be the fulcrum for a galactic change in the order of things.

 

[370999]

The only thing worse than making another ME3 post, is the Masshole that spent 90 minutes blabbing about the Indoctrination Theory. They cry because they spent 100 hours playing and sculpting their story only to have it destroyed in minutes, so instead of cutting their losses and moving on they spend another 100 crying about it. Like playing another game already!! Jesus Christ.....

crying?...oh for fucks sake...strawman strikes again

but apoligies..we should just be talking about how much we hate ME3 and EA instead I supose

Um no I'm saying to stop talking about ME3 and EA altogether. Move on with life. I beat ME3 100%, then I played a DBZ game and now I bought prototype 2.

These people think they are in this mythical war of good and evil where if they ***** enough they will bring down the tyrant that is EA, but all that happens is EA still makes money and they just waste their breath.

The point I'm making is stop crying about the ending, stop crying about Bioware and stop crying about EA.

I would find that easier to accept if you didn't barge into this thread and lecture on the need to move on.

Rather shockingly, different people have different tolerances for discussing certain topics. Fortunately with a forum, topic usually have a title which indicates the content within that is being discussed. Thus I'm sure a man with the staggering intellectual ability to coin the term "massholes" should find it relatively easy to decipher what content is going to be discussed in certain threads, and if not fond of it, be able to rather gracefully avoid it, like a verbal gazelle leaping past the lions of the Mass Effect ending.

Or you can continue on the present course, and I can continue to watch the gripping argument the pot produces as to why the kettle is black.

 

[Vault101]

snip.

I think its establish first thing that the reapers are synthetic/organic hybrids (sovergn)

I think for some reason in the original plot the human reaper was going to be able to "defeat" the dark matter...how the hell you "defeat" somthing liek that is beyond me

yeah, I dont know abotu the other reapers..they all look like giant space bugs to me..I think they said they tried to make a prothian but it didnt work

I would find that easier to accept if you didn't barge into this thread and lecture on the need to move on.

Rather shockingly, different people have different tolerances for discussing certain topics. Fortunately with a forum, topic usually have a title which indicates the content within that is being discussed. Thus I'm sure a man with the staggering intellectual ability to coin the term "massholes" should find it relatively easy to decipher what content is going to be discussed in certain threads, and if not fond of it, be able to rather gracefully avoid it, like a verbal gazelle leaping past the lions of the Mass Effect ending.

Or you can continue on the present course, and I can continue to watch the gripping argument the pot produces as to why the kettle is black.

you siad that with more class than I could muster in my state of anger....well done

 

[Zaik]

I like the theory as a whole, however it's obviously not what they were going for.

At best, someone went through the game near the end(when it was obvious the whole thing was an unsalvageable disaster) and seeded in foreshadowing here and there to try to point to this possibility to create the option later to "clarify" it as a proper ending if necessary. Some generic reaper sound effects here, piles of horribly rendered stacked bodies suddenly appearing there, spawn a bunch of wispy shadows with recycled lines and stick them in a dream that was likely only supposed to happen once, right after leaving Earth, and use the same dream two more times, give Shepard TIM eyes on two of the endings, etc.

Would have taken a short amount of time(relative to creating the entire game) and some pro copy/paste skills, and not a thing more.

 

[Rangerboy87]

Thanks for pointing this out. I hadn't really watched anything about the IT, and I thought it was just a crazy excuse theory. But watching this has made me pull a complete 180. I definitely think it has credence. My hope is that it is true and Bioware just pulled the biggest "Gotcha" moment ever.

I do disagree with the narrator's thinking on one theory. It's his argument about Anderson during the scene with TIM. He makes the point that Anderson doesn't look at TIM when he says "They're controlling you." He claims he looks at Shepard off-shot.

I don't buy this theory, but I have one of my own. The first time I watched it during the video, he appeared like he looked at ME. That's my theory on this, it matches his, but with a slight change in detail. Anderson looks at the player, not Shepard off-shot when he says the line.

Speaking of the line, listen to how Anderson says it: "They're controlling YOU." He puts a hard emphasis on "you", and then immediately looks at the player. You can argue that he just says it harder because he's wounded and struggling with TIM control on him, or that the emphasis was only meant for TIM, but it does look suspicious.

One final note (sorry, I did not intend for this to be so long when I started writing this). I've noticed a few posters have written angry replies to the points made in the video, along with telling everyone to quit whining. Did you guys seriously just watch an hour and a half video just to troll the people on here? Get a life guys!

Seriously, I was just as skeptical as you guys (as I mentioned at the start). I thought this theory was just desperate people trying to cling to hope that the ending wasn't a big screw-up. I had accepted it as a screw-up and moved on. But I was also uninformed. That's why I watched this, to become informed. If I still thought it was nonsense, I would have at least offer intelligent counter-arguments, not just bash it.

After watching, I see where people are coming from. I'm still not completely behind the theory, but I see the argument as a possibility. The DLC will be the ultimate call on the true meaning of the ending. We just have to wait until then.