Mass Effect isn't an RPG?!

[Sexbad]

Mass Effect by no means is an RPG. RPGs are about playing roles that you create. They're about earning experience and applying it to skills of your choice. Mass Effect is about making dialogue choices and making sure that the gun you are using is of the highest specs out of all the ones you picked up. To be an RPG, there would need to be options to build your character. No matter what, you're just another guy who shoots things. Maybe with guns, maybe with The Force. You can't build Shepard up to be able to circumvent things with hacking, nor can he do stealth, or anything like that. I guess choosing your squadmates counts, since they have certain effectivenesses against certain enemies, but that's it.

ME is a shooter.

Don't really feel like rewriting any of this, so here ya go:

Spoiler

Mass Effect 1 and 2 aren't role playing games, they're role games where all you do is choose what you want your character to say in the vaguest of senses of and then "fight" aliens by pointing at them and making one of your squad mates throw them across the room.

Yeah, pretty much. That's all you do.

Choosing your class? Your backstory? Facial features? What weapons you specialize in? What skills and abilities? How your character interacts with his allies which then defines how they act and think around you? Your preference of squad? Your preference of weapons, armor, and upgrades? How you think, how you act in such pivotal situations that ultimately define and shape the people and galaxy around you? Nope, none of that's in there. None at all.

Again, those are all little things that do not define how one plays the game. No matter what, you'll be confronting a situation by shooting from cover. Your backstory, your attitude (Commander Shepard's is dull no matter what anyway), et cetera won't change that in the slightest.

Compare it to RPGs like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. These games allow for greatly varied playstyles, not just varied weapons/force powers. In Deus Ex you don't have to shoot your way through, you can use skills like hacking or stealth to slither your way through enemy defenses. You can skip through firearm combat almost completely in System Shock 2, disabling security and hacking for goodies. Things like this in Mass Effect are not possible. You shoot on a linear path in order to get to an objective. It has light roleplaying elements, but that's about it.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

Again, those are all little things that do not define how one plays the game. No matter what, you'll be confronting a situation by shooting from cover. Your backstory, your attitude (Commander Shepard's is dull no matter what anyway), et cetera won't change that in the slightest.

Compare it to RPGs like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. These games allow for greatly varied playstyles, not just varied weapons/force powers. In Deus Ex you don't have to shoot your way through, you can use skills like hacking or stealth to slither your way through enemy defenses. You can skip through firearm combat almost completely in System Shock 2, disabling security and hacking for goodies. Things like this in Mass Effect are not possible. You shoot on a linear path in order to get to an objective. It has light roleplaying elements, but that's about it.

Very well, on what you're saying, what defines an RPG is varied play styles.

Now, here's a simple question. What are your thoughts on KotOR and how it fits into the whole RPG category?

 

[The Lunatic]

I'd say it's more a third person shooting game with some minor RPG elements.

 

[RandomWords]

Yeah...it is an RPG, why? Because you have a customizable character that has choices that you must live out in the game. You are that character, you are Shepard.

 

[Thaius]

Choosing your Materia placement in Final Fantasy VII is no more or less role-playing than choosing who to save in Mass Effect.

In mass effect you felt not only for Shepard but also THROUGH him/her. In FFVII even if you feel for the character there is and extra step missing to make the connection that YOU are this awesome person, that you are doing these things and they are happening to you.

I understand the difference, but you're still focused on "being the character" as the only aspect of an RPG. It's not. It's only part of it.

You are right; that is a fundamental difference between the two styles. If "being the character" was the only aspect that defines an RPG, you'd be right. But it's not, it's only one aspect of an RPG, the absence of which does not disqualify a game from the genre.

Though I would also argue that the feel of being the character is a general property of video games as a storytelling medium, regardless of role-playing. That's what makes them so great.

 

[LogicNProportion]

In a sense, and looking at the big picture, if a game is doing it right, aren't all games RPG's?

 

[Jaythulhu]

As someone who was introduced to dice-slinging at an early at via the D&D red and green boxes and a nerdy uncle, I've never been convinced that RPG is an appropriate term for any video game. Sure video games may have some elements (mechanics, mostly), but that's really where the similarities end in my mind.

In a roleplaying game, you are limited only your imagination and anything the GM/DM has set. It a video game, no matter how many skills and abilities you can gain, you're limited in every aspect, from character development to world interaction and everything in between. A VRPG is, when compared to something like Dungeons & Dragons, World of Darkness, or even GURPS, far more similar to the old Choose Your Own Adventure or Fighting Fantasy books.

Don't get me wrong, I love VRPGs. I just don't believe they can ever really compare with a true RPG.

 

[Sexbad]

Again, those are all little things that do not define how one plays the game. No matter what, you'll be confronting a situation by shooting from cover. Your backstory, your attitude (Commander Shepard's is dull no matter what anyway), et cetera won't change that in the slightest.

Compare it to RPGs like Deus Ex or System Shock 2. These games allow for greatly varied playstyles, not just varied weapons/force powers. In Deus Ex you don't have to shoot your way through, you can use skills like hacking or stealth to slither your way through enemy defenses. You can skip through firearm combat almost completely in System Shock 2, disabling security and hacking for goodies. Things like this in Mass Effect are not possible. You shoot on a linear path in order to get to an objective. It has light roleplaying elements, but that's about it.

Very well, on what you're saying, what defines an RPG is varied play styles.

Now, here's a simple question. What are your thoughts on KotOR and how it fits into the whole RPG category?

I've never played KotOR. My first BioWare "RPG" was ME and I haven't played any of their other games since. I saw a gameplay video of the beginning, far too much breaking the fourth wall, and I didn't find any interesting combat either. Perhaps it improves, but from what I recall, there was no character involvement other than the game pausing, you clicking on enemies, and then people shooting back and forth. I may be completely wrong though. It was a long time ago.

 

[Dango]

Your 100% right in my book.

It's about making and ROLE PLAYING your character.
JRPG's are not RPG's for that reason.

May I remind you that JRPGs were around long before the modern RPG? Maybe modern RPGs should just get a new name, like "Games that promise you will change the world your in but end up having extremely subtle and slightly disappointing changes", yeah, I think that works. The point of an RPG is not to shape the world around you, it's simply a game in which you can upgrade character stats and customize things like weapons, armor etc.

 

[ImprovizoR]

Mass Effect 2 is an RPG shooter. More a shooter though. Mass Effect 1 was more of an RPG. You make decisions, you upgrade your character powers and you shoot. Having a voiced character doesn't limit the RPG elements and RPG experience. In my opinion a voiced character is better. Just look at The Witcher.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

As long as your character's actions aren't linearly scripted, it's an RPG. This makes Mass Effect an RPG.

RPG is a highly debatable term these days. Japanese RPGs did most of the foundations in terms of video game RPGs, and they did so by involving player stats and highly customizable battle/equipment setups. However, now that Western RPGs have come onto the scene, we have people claiming that the key element of role-playing is the ability to indeed play a role, making decisions and driving the story and personality of the main character. So it's hard to really know what an RPG is in the first place.

I say any of these elements counts as "RPG elements," meaning that a game that incorporates them as a huge aspect of the game is an RPG. The first Mass Effect is absolutely an RPG. THe second is more debatable, but I would still call it an action RPG.

It's a sticky subject, but some people have gotten really picky about it. For that matter, often people will make up a new definition specifically to exclude some kind of RPG they don't like (I'm looking squarely at you, JRPG haters). You can't let it bother you; disagree, debate it if you want, but it's a typical occurrence.

This makes me think about Paper Mario. I had deduced that it was an RPG because of its use of experience points, and all RPGs to my knowledge have those. But now with the more Western style of unscripted action and nonlinearity based in having your character play a unique role in the story, is it still an RPG by Western Standards? Are the Pokemon games RPGs in that same standard?

It's all so confusing.

Does that make Heavy Rain an RPG?

 

[Eumersian]

As long as your character's actions aren't linearly scripted, it's an RPG. This makes Mass Effect an RPG.

RPG is a highly debatable term these days. Japanese RPGs did most of the foundations in terms of video game RPGs, and they did so by involving player stats and highly customizable battle/equipment setups. However, now that Western RPGs have come onto the scene, we have people claiming that the key element of role-playing is the ability to indeed play a role, making decisions and driving the story and personality of the main character. So it's hard to really know what an RPG is in the first place.

I say any of these elements counts as "RPG elements," meaning that a game that incorporates them as a huge aspect of the game is an RPG. The first Mass Effect is absolutely an RPG. THe second is more debatable, but I would still call it an action RPG.

It's a sticky subject, but some people have gotten really picky about it. For that matter, often people will make up a new definition specifically to exclude some kind of RPG they don't like (I'm looking squarely at you, JRPG haters). You can't let it bother you; disagree, debate it if you want, but it's a typical occurrence.

This makes me think about Paper Mario. I had deduced that it was an RPG because of its use of experience points, and all RPGs to my knowledge have those. But now with the more Western style of unscripted action and nonlinearity based in having your character play a unique role in the story, is it still an RPG by Western Standards? Are the Pokemon games RPGs in that same standard?

It's all so confusing.

Does that make Heavy Rain an RPG?

I don't know, that's what makes this so confusing for me.

 

[JaymesFogarty]

As long as your character's actions aren't linearly scripted, it's an RPG. This makes Mass Effect an RPG.

RPG is a highly debatable term these days. Japanese RPGs did most of the foundations in terms of video game RPGs, and they did so by involving player stats and highly customizable battle/equipment setups. However, now that Western RPGs have come onto the scene, we have people claiming that the key element of role-playing is the ability to indeed play a role, making decisions and driving the story and personality of the main character. So it's hard to really know what an RPG is in the first place.

I say any of these elements counts as "RPG elements," meaning that a game that incorporates them as a huge aspect of the game is an RPG. The first Mass Effect is absolutely an RPG. THe second is more debatable, but I would still call it an action RPG.

It's a sticky subject, but some people have gotten really picky about it. For that matter, often people will make up a new definition specifically to exclude some kind of RPG they don't like (I'm looking squarely at you, JRPG haters). You can't let it bother you; disagree, debate it if you want, but it's a typical occurrence.

This makes me think about Paper Mario. I had deduced that it was an RPG because of its use of experience points, and all RPGs to my knowledge have those. But now with the more Western style of unscripted action and nonlinearity based in having your character play a unique role in the story, is it still an RPG by Western Standards? Are the Pokemon games RPGs in that same standard?

It's all so confusing.

Does that make Heavy Rain an RPG?

I don't know, that's what makes this so confusing for me.

I suppose that the game isn't linearly scripted, so it's an RPG. But each major action you do in the game is linearly scripted. So, it's not an RPG. But it is... let's break for lunch.Why do games even need genres anyway? Just as with music, it'll inevitably become one huge clutter of genres, sub-genres, and sub-sub-genres.

 

[Orcus The Ultimate]

i would consider it to be an RPG if (for a start) it had the option of choosing which race (of the numerous you see throughout the game) you want.

 

[Nylis]

I don't know why this matters so much to people. Why does the genre matter? You either like the game or you don't. I'll play a game I like regardless of it's genre.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

I've never played KotOR. My first BioWare "RPG" was ME and I haven't played any of their other games since. I saw a gameplay video of the beginning, far too much breaking the fourth wall, and I didn't find any interesting combat either. Perhaps it improves, but from what I recall, there was no character involvement other than the game pausing, you clicking on enemies, and then people shooting back and forth. I may be completely wrong though. It was a long time ago.

Point wasn't whether you liked it or not. I don't know if you know this, but there are a lot of RPGs that don't let you focus on stealth. RPGs that don't let you avoid combat. And when you lose that, all you have left is different ways to kill people. So yeah, you shoot from cover. Can't change that much either? Well, that's not true. Different ways to achieve victory in Mass Effect is specializing in different ways. Want to be the tech guy who takes down enemy shields and hacks cybernetics and robots? Well you can do that. The psychic guy with physics defying powers? Totally an option. How about a hybrid? How about a psychic who specializes in close-combat? A tech who snipes people from a distance? A full on brute of a soldier?

I dunno, that's a lot of ways different ways you can go about the combat. Hell, you can even put stats in different weapon specializations if you have a preference for the sniper instead of the assault rifle (a Deus Ex player would be able to appreciate that). But then, it is fairly easy to argue that that's just different ways to shoot people (well, actually not if you prefer tech or biotics). Assault rifle, sniper, you still shoot at people so what's the difference? To which I argue, in other RPGs you're still stabbing people with a pointy piece of metal whether you're a warrior or assassin. Do you honestly want to generalize all of that? I mean, seriously? Is this really that hard to get? Nope! It's still shooting from cover! That's all it is! Well then, video games are just all about killing things. Yep. That's a completely true statement. Can't see no folly in that.

You know, denying that Mass Effect doesn't have you gathering experience or that you can't build up your hacking stat is just plain false and misinformed. Dude, we're talking about Mass Effect 1 here. I already admitted that Mass Effect 2 completely transcends any finite genre. Do you seriously not know about the Decryption and Electronics skills? What about the Charm or Intimidate skills? See, this is why I honestly have doubts as to whether or not you actually completed the game and still discount that it didn't have these type of skills, especially after mentioning Deus Ex and System Shock.

Either way, combat is half the equation in Mass Effect. Hell, in any good game, combat is never the full equation. That doesn't mean that the combat is any less important when it comes to defining the game as an RPG. You limit RPGs completely to combat rather than anything else (you know, considering everything else is just a "little thing that does not define how one plays the game), and it does a disservice to many great, mold-breaking RPGs out there. It's not appreciated when you generalize something so huge with such a close-minded attitude.

 

[WorldCritic]

It's an RPG with Trird person shooter combat. Not really much else to say.

 

[TheDrunkNinja]

snip

It's like talking to a wall, isn't it?
I've had the same argument on this site with people but they are just too mired in their own deluded definition to listen.

You are correct though: RPG is not defined by choices and open-worlds. That's the definition of sandbox gameplay. Role play is often performed by actors in a scripted role. No choices there, but still role play. It can also be defined in a more improv role. It's also role play.

In video game terms, when one describes "RPG elements" they aren't talking player choices or how open the world is; they are talking about level ups and stats. That's just how it is.

Personally, it saddens and offends me that you would limit an entire genre to the inclusion of mathematics into gameplay.