Matter /CAN/ be created!

[RJ 17]

I'm pretty sure that rounding errors don't equal "creation of matter".

I mean, you could tell someone who's missing 4/10 toes that he's got all of them, if he rounds up.

You, with your genius have just disproved a fundamental principle in modern physics... with rounding up numbers. Well done. [/sarcasm]

Go home people. Nothing to see here.

To both of you, I'd suggest you take up a policy that I recently took up: read more than the OP before commenting. If you had, you would have seen this:

Just so both of you know, the naming the topic "Matter /CAN/ be created!" was just a hook-line to get people in here to look at my neat mathematical magic trick. I know that matter cannot be created or destroyed. The fact remains, however, that the 0.(infinite 0's)1 does come out of nowhere to make 0.999_ = 1 without the need for rounding.

Edit: And for the record, the point of this trick is to show that 0.999_ = 1 WITHOUT rounding. Again: this could have been seen had you read previous posts.

In short: lighten up people, it's a joke based off a simple math trick.

That doesn't mean matter can be created though. It just means that .999 repeating is the same as 1.

But how can 0.999_ = 1 when 0.999_ is meant to represent a number infinitely close to 1 without actually being 1? Where does the extra 0.(insert infinite line of zeros)1 come from that bumps all the 9s ahead of it to 10s, thus making it 1?

It isn't, its just so close to 1 that nobody cares.

That's not necessarily true, if it was, then 2.999rep would = 3. But the proof given in my OP doesn't work in that case. It only works for 0.999rep = 1

 

[Legendsmith]

This shows a flaw with mathematics. It doesn't prove matter can be created.

 

[RJ 17]

This shows a flaw with mathematics. It doesn't prove matter can be created.

I'll direct your attention to the post above yours in which all your concerns have already been explained.

 

[Atmos Duality]

Damn. I already used all my Math Jokes for today.
Maybe I should resort to math pickup lines?

"You must be the square root of 2, because I feel irrational around you."

 

[isometry]

The Banach-Tarski paradox comes much closer to "creating matter from nothing", but of course it doesn't apply either since matter consists of discrete particles, not an uncountable continuum.

Anyway, the Banach-Tarski paradox is a surprising theorem that says it's possible to break a sphere into a finite number of non-overlapping pieces, and combine the pieces to make two whole spheres which are each the same size as the original.

The catch is that the non-overlapping pieces are all unmeasurable sets. Each is a subset of the sphere and the pieces don't overlap, but beyond that it's impossible to visualize the pieces - they would look like dense fractals.

Here is the wikipedia article on this interesting theorem:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banach?Tarski_paradox

OT: Yeah 1 = 0.9999..., two different ways of writing the same number. Also 2.2 = 2.199... , etc.

 

[triggrhappy94]

If you thought that was cool, here's some Astrophysics 101.

There is a gravitational attration between EVERY object. The equation to calculate that attration is:

Fg=G((M1 * M2)/D^2)

Where
Fg= The force of gravity
G= Universal gravity constant (don't worry about it, it's a really small number)
M1 and M2= Mass of object 1 and 2
D= distance

Now that we have that established...
Black holes have such huge masses that not even light can escape it.
You're probably putting two and two together now...
If you look at the equation, for that statement to be true both objects must have a mass.
Light has mass.

According to a documentary on black holes that I watched, physicists hate'em because once you get to a certain point near the singularity, that (or some other physics gravity equation) comes out to a big-fat infinity sign staring up at you, suggesting that a singularity has infinite mass and infinite gravity.

Yeah. If you look at the equation, the pull gets exponentially greater after you get bellow one meter apart.

 

[GoAwayVifs]

Oh great, this thread. Again. There is no infinitesimal difference. There is no rounding. There is no error in math. 0.999... is exactly equal to 1.

 

[RavenGlenn]

That doesn't mean matter can be created though. It just means that .999 repeating is the same as 1.

But how can 0.999_ = 1 when 0.999_ is meant to represent a number infinitely close to 1 without actually being 1? Where does the extra 0.(insert infinite line of zeros)1 come from that bumps all the 9s ahead of it to 10s, thus making it 1?

The easiest way to prove that 0.999... is equal to 1 is this: What can you add to 0.999... to make it equal 1?

The answer to that question is "Nothing". Therefore, 0.999... is equal to 1.

It's a pretty basic principle of math.

 

[Tiger Sora]

Dear math, please stop trying to arouse the professors of your department. It's cutting productivity which equates to us losing money. You don't want us to have to cut your budget do you.

 

[Berenzen]

Any mathematician will tell you that .999... is equal to 1. This is because 0.000...1 does not exist. A mathematician could explain it better than I can.

The closest way that we can create matter is by converting energy into it. However, Mass and Energy must be conserved unless you want to get into insane multidimensional physics that is no more than conjecture.

The equation to Mass-Energy equivalence is E^2=γm^2c^4 + γp^2c^2. Where γ= (1/sqrt(1-(v^2/c^2))

Light has mass-energy equivalence depending on the energy of the photon. Measured in MeV (Mega electronVolts), energy is affected by gravity because of warping in space-time, as defined through general relativity.

A black hole has a definite mass, and in fact it can be calculated by the size of it's schwartzchild radius- radius of the event horizon. Equation is r=2GM/c^2. All matter has a schwartzchild radius, but most of them are contained within the actual particles itself.

F=GMM/r^2 cannot equal infinite. Even as you approach the center of a black hole it does not equal infinite. However, it approaches it asymptotically. In order for an object to have infinite gravitational attraction to another object, it must exist at the exact same location of the other object, a physical impossibility.

People, before you start spewing out physics, you should probably take a physics/astronomy course beforehand, instead of just looking at equations and thinking you know it.

 

[SL33TBL1ND]

That doesn't mean matter can be created though. It just means that .999 repeating is the same as 1.

But how can 0.999_ = 1 when 0.999_ is meant to represent a number infinitely close to 1 without actually being 1? Where does the extra 0.(insert infinite line of zeros)1 come from that bumps all the 9s ahead of it to 10s, thus making it 1?

It doesn't come from anywhere, you proved that 0.9... = 1 in your post with the algebra. Why are you refuting your own work? Not only that, but this doesn't have anything to do with matter being created. What on Earth are you on about?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/0.999...

 

[chuckey]

I'm sorry but .999... is not, nor ever will be equal to 1. Just think of it this is 1 = 2? no? well the same concept applies to this. 1 is not equal to .999... no matter how many 9s there are there will always just be a little bit missing.

Another way is to think about asymptotes in graphs.

Spoiler: asymptote

(this is just and image of a regular asymptote, not related to the scenario I'm explaining.)

Let's say that your asymptote boundaries are X=1 and y=1. That means that no matter how close to the boundary the line will get i.e. .999... it will never touch it because that will mean that 1 would be a solution to the equation of the graph, which for equations with asymptotes would not be possible because it would cause a 0 to appear in the denominator of the original equation. (equations that have asymptote have a variable in the denominator i.e. Y= 1/(X-1).)

Therefore .999... cannot equal 1.

EDIT: forget just saw the wiki article, egh I guess I'm just stubborn. DAMN you CALCULUS TEACHER!!!

 

[Rabid Toilet]

Oh god, this thread again. It's such an easy way to get a hundred pages of back and forth between those who understand complicated math and those who don't. I refuse to get sucked into another debate about this. It simply never ends.

Yes, .999... is exactly equal to 1. No, it does not involve rounding. They are exactly the same number. No, I'm not going to spend time explaining all of the different proofs and ideas about infinities to people. Search for one of the other threads about this if you really care. Every point I could make has been repeated over and over again in them.

Also, to the OP: If you really wanted to get lots of views, you could have just made the title "FREE TITTIES INSIDE CLICK NAO!!1". It would have had about the same level of relevance to the content of the thread.

 

[Xirema]

It isn't, its just so close to 1 that nobody cares.

This is probably my biggest pet peeve, right next to people mixing up the usage of their/they're/there or your/you're.

0.999_ DOES equal 1. It's not "So close it doesn't matter", it's not "an infinitely small distance from 1", it's equal. Ask any professor of mathematics.

The reason people refuse to believe it is that they don't understand that numbers are symbols for man-made concepts, which means that there are discrepancies vis-a-vis the representation of the numbers. So you get weird stuff where 0.000_...1 is the same as 0, because 0.000_...1 is being used to describe a concept for which there's a poorly defined substitute in regular, base ten numeral representation.

There IS a branch of mathematics involving hyperreals (the name of which eludes me at the moment) that invokes this sort of nonsense where you have infinitely small numbers, or infinitely large numbers, but it doesn't work at all in the same way that defenders of "1 != 0.999_" would believe.

I'm sorry but .999... is not, nor ever will be equal to 1. Just think of it this is 1 = 2? no? well the same concept applies to this. 1 is not equal to .999... no matter how many 9s there are there will always just be a little bit missing.

Another way is to think about asymptotes in graphs.

Spoiler: asymptote

(this is just and image of a regular asymptote, not related to the scenario I'm explaining.)

Let's say that your asymptote boundaries are X=1 and y=1. That means that no matter how close to the boundary the line will get i.e. .999... it will never touch it because that will mean that 1 would be a solution to the equation of the graph, which for equations with asymptotes would not be possible because it would cause a 0 to appear in the denominator of the original equation. (equations that have asymptote have a variable in the denominator i.e. Y= 1/(X-1).)

Therefore .999... cannot equal 1.

That is not how math works.

 

[smallthemouse]

edit - nevermind read it wrong. 0.999repeating still evaluates to 1 though.

 

[Evil Smurf]

Edit to delete repeticious sentence.

I just threw forty-five dollars at my monitor and nothing is happening. Why has your math magic not started solving all my problems yet?

If you want all your problems to go away, you must first divide by 0.

no just alt+F4

......

hehe

 

[lacktheknack]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-innocent-sounding-topics-that-are-guaranteed-flame-wars/

Number 4 is going to happen again. You KNOW it will.

OT: 0.99999_ is functionally one.

It breaks reality if it isn't.

 

[Xirema]

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-innocent-sounding-topics-that-are-guaranteed-flame-wars/

Number 4 is going to happen again. You KNOW it will.

OT: 0.99999_ is functionally one.

It breaks reality if it isn't.

Honestly? My complaint is now solely directed at your choice of the word "functionally", because, while you probably understand the concept, the people who don't (and refuse to understand it) are going to look at that and say "Oh, they're functionally the same, but not the same."

So I guess that was a self-fulfilling prophecy. XD

0.999_ and 1 are two ways of writing the same number. If I add 0.999_ + 0.999_ I expect the answer to be either 2 or 1.999_, both of which are also the same number.

 

[Feylynn]

Neat trick, sorry about that part where 0.999 people got it and the rest jumped straight to smashing your assumed physics revelation to pieces. =O

Reading, it's a virtue.
Or it should be.