Maturity in gaming

[Manji187]

I consider myself to be of the fifth generation as I started gaming "seriously" on the PSX. One of my favorite PSX games of all time is called "Vagrant Story", a Square title from the year 2000. It can be summarized as a "one-man JRPG", without the random battles. It had an interesting battlesystem and weapon crafting mechanic. It had impressive looking effects, like spells (at the time). The setting was rather dark...medieval.

But all of this is not what comes to my mind first as I think about the game. It's the main character, Ashley Riot...a Riskbreaker (some kind of special agent of an organisation called the Valendia Knights of the Peace).

Now, he is an interesting character because...

Spoiler

..he lives a convenient lie he has created for himself to protect his mind. This will obviously need some elaborating.

Once, Ashley was sent on a mission to strike down some insurgent threat. Only his intel/ mission info was wrong and he ended up brutally killing an innocent family: father, mother and child. Filled with heavy remorse and guilt his mind went into shock. Then his mind, with some help of his superiors, played a trick on him. Ashley made himself believe he was the victim of an insurgent attack...losing his wife and child (he actually doesn't have a wife and child). So he became a sort of a zealot...hellbent on crushing any such threats in the future.

This is actually a secondary storyline in the game... it becomes clear in dialogues and cutscenes that Ashley is a character who's in conflict with his inner self. Step by step Ashley uncovers the truth, with the help of another important character.

There are some analogies that can be drawn between Ashley Riot and Cloud Strife (from Final Fantasy VII)...but I personally feel that Ashley's inner struggle is better presented.

And a certain recent Martin Scorsese movie comes to mind. A very good movie.

In the next 10 gaming years of my life I have rarely encountered such depth in a game character.

It made me think about such things as emotions, morality, ethics and philosophy in gaming...and then I came to the startling (for me) conclusion that I've rarely seen any of the following in a game:

- fully developed parent-child relations (I'm not talking "Wake up Crono!")
- fully developed sibling relations (I'm not talking rivalry/ fights)
- fully developed male-female relations (I'm not talking sexual innuendo)
- fully developed friendship relations (I'm not talking "war buddy, we're in this shit together" crap)
- believable display of remorse and feelings of guilt or shame (I've seen enough crocodile tears though)
- feelings of doubt concerning a characters behaviour/ nature. Or more general: self-reflection.

I may have missed the right games (I sure as hell haven't played em all)...if you can find examples of the abovementioned (preferably with a link to a Youtube video)..do tell.

Also, if there are similar things in games YOU have rarely encountered...do tell .

 

[Daveman]

I'm pretty sure Mass Effect did most of those alright. Also I really liked the father-son thing in sands of time. The prince is always set on trying to please him and make him proud and feels a lot of shame after releasing the sands and then later on he has to fight the zombified reincarnation of his dad which he doesn't feel very comfortable with. Maybe it's just rose-tint but that's what impression I got, that that was good.
Prince of Persia sands of time ALSO did a lot of introspective monologues as he ran along walls and shit, so there's that too.

 

[LegendaryMan]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Maturity?

Thats a good one.

Most games today arent mature but mindless FPSs with Black and White Morality.

There are bad guys your the good guys,woman are there only to be exploited or to have the unnesesery boob shot, with characters that are either bland or just downright stupid and with money spend mostly on how many polygons you can fit into a screen and with 10 bucks spend on the script.

Thats what most games are today.

PS:I know all the games that try to avert this and dont take this route.
Dont give me examples i already know them.

 

[Tallim]

I always liked The Longest Journey for this, because it managed to have a whole range of diverse characters while never resorting to stereotypes or pre-conceived notions of how a character should act.

In fact, the main character, April Ryan, is so well fleshed out that there's people who've fallen in love with her by the end of the game.

As for things you rarely encounter in game plots, a lack of deus ex machinas. Seriously, almost every game you play with a plot will have one, an absolutely improbable event happening for the sole purpose of advancing the plot.

Longest Journey is fantastically well written. Even the lesbian couple who April rents her room from is handled maturely.

 

[Tallim]

- fully developed parent-child relations (I'm not talking "Wake up Crono!")
- fully developed sibling relations (I'm not talking rivalry/ fights)
- fully developed male-female relations (I'm not talking sexual innuendo)
- fully developed friendship relations (I'm not talking "war buddy, we're in this shit together" crap)
- believable display of remorse and feelings of guilt or shame (I've seen enough crocodile tears though)
- feelings of doubt concerning a characters behaviour/ nature. Or more general: self-reflection.

I may have missed the right games (I sure as hell haven't played em all)...if you can find examples of the abovementioned (preferably with a link to a Youtube video)..do tell.

Also, if there are similar things in games YOU have rarely encountered...do tell .

Difficult to define "fully developed". A more appropriate term maybe would be "satisfying"?

A lot of that except the family aspects are present in Planescape Torment. Also I personally found the Father-Son relationship in FFX was well defined and quite clever.

It's more just a question of how good it seemed to you.

 

[Manji187]

Difficult to define "fully developed". A more appropriate term maybe would be "satisfying"?

A lot of that except the family aspects are present in Planescape Torment. Also I personally found the Father-Son relationship in FFX was well defined and quite clever.

It's more just a question of how good it seemed to you.

Yeah, it is difficult to define. I was actually thinking of the opposite of superficial (or skin deep) and came up with "fully developed" (or full of depth as in the whole range of emotions/ feelings).

I realize that doing this I prolly take on the role of Humpty Dumpty ("When I use a word...it means just what I choose it to mean"). It's just that I really don't know what "fully developed" means (I'm not a psychologist/ sociologist). I could've made up a whole new word (neologism) but that wouldn't have benefited anyone.

Tidus and Jecht...yeah I guess it did have some depth. And Tidus was talking to himself a lot...

 

[arsenicCatnip]

Persona 4 allows you to develop deep friendships and family-esque relationships (you become very close with your teammates, as well as with your uncle and cousin). Part of your world depends on forming these ties with people.

 

[Manji187]

The Final Fantasy series has always been good at this kind of thing. For instance, in FF9, at the start of the game, you take control of a little Black Mage boy named Vivi. He runs into a little Ratboy called Puck, who agrees to help you get into the castle and see the play that's being performed there if you agree to be his slave. At the time, you just assume it's an example of kids being kids, and it's really quite endearing. Then:

Spoiler

It later transpires that Black Mages within the FF9 universe are actually mindless warriors created for the sole purpose of warmongering. That harmless little exhange between Vivi and Puck was actually foreshadowing a major plot-point, and doing so with all the assuredness of a novel or film.

It also transpires that Puck isn't just some random street child, he's the runaway prince of Cleyra, a faraway kingdom. Again, the same exchange is foreshadowing plot-points that become apparant later on in the game. Here, Puck wants Vivi to become another one of his subjects.

Hell, Final Fantasy 9 has some of the best reflection and introspection I've ever seen in a game. Throughout the story, Vivi has to come to terms with how he was created, what he is, and the fact he will die (Black Mages in FF9 only have a lifespan of a couple of years). The party is victorious, defeats the big bad (in this case, an angel of death who cannot come to terms with his own mortality), and save the day. And Vivi dies. His final words and reflections are brought up on screen as the game winds down, and honestly, it had me in tears. One of the only times a video game character has made me cry.

I completely agree.

Spoiler

And then there's the whole Zidane, Kuja and Garland event on Terra.

Garland: "you are a mere vessel...empty by nature"

Tidus: "No I'm not...my life, experiences and the ties that bind...like friendship and love...make me so much more than that"

Of course it's not a verbatim representation...just how I remember it. It's magnificent...not just from a storytelling point of view.

 

[NeutralDrow]

I may have missed the right games (I sure as hell haven't played em all)...if you can find examples of the abovementioned (preferably with a link to a Youtube video)..do tell.

Have to say, I've rarely seen some of those outside the best visual novels. I'll try to recall some non-VN examples, but...

It made me think about such things as emotions, morality, ethics and philosophy in gaming...and then I came to the startling (for me) conclusion that I've rarely seen any of the following in a game:

- fully developed parent-child relations (I'm not talking "Wake up Crono!")

VN: Part of the plot to any given route of <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.135672-Neutral-Drow-reviews-A-Drug-That-Makes-You-Dream>A Drug That Makes You Dream is Kouhei's acclimation to and demonstration of reciprocal love with his adopted parents. Nayuki's relationship with her mother Akiko in <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.163769-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Kanon>Kanon could also count, though neither are the main (viewpoint) character.

Non-VN: I've heard good things about Heavy Rain in this regard. Nothing else I can recall goes very deeply into the matter.

- fully developed sibling relations (I'm not talking rivalry/ fights)

VN: Both <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.128851-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Tsukihime>Tsukihime and Kana: Little Sister get into this, though both have...interesting twists in the dynamic, let's say, depending on routes chosen. I've heard things about Clannad that suggest this, though neither of the sisters are the main character.

Non-VN: Nothing comes to mind.

- fully developed male-female relations (I'm not talking sexual innuendo)

VN: Pretty much any visual novel that doesn't just use female characters as an excuse for sex (I have no illusions in this matter) can lay some claim to this. Personally, I'd call Fate/Stay Night the great example, though Kana: Little Sister is also good, and Hourglass of Summer appears to be shaping up (I'm not very far in, yet). Even some dating sims get this right.

Non-VN: There's probably a few, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what "fully developed" might mean in this case. The example that's coming most to mind is the Marta/Emil relationship in Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, which was my favorite aspect of the game, but I'm sure there are others.

- fully developed friendship relations (I'm not talking "war buddy, we're in this shit together" crap)

VN: Shiki and Arihiko's relationship in Tsukihime is very much like this, especially if you play the semi-sequel Kagetsu Tohya, which goes into greater detail about their history together and their current interactions. <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.146260-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Heart-de-Roommate>Heart de Roommate is also pretty good in the matter, between both the three girls and the male lead.

Non-VN: Tales of Symphonia comes most to mind, especially if Lloyd becomes close to Genis or Zelos.

- believable display of remorse and feelings of guilt or shame (I've seen enough crocodile tears though)

VN: Anything with a main character given to self-awareness. Of the games I've played, that includes Tsukihime, Fate/Stay Night, A Drug That Makes You Dream, Heart de Roommate, Kanon, and especially Kana: Little Sister.

Non-VN: Again, Tales of Symphonia. It's been a while since I've played Baten Kaitos, but things in Kalas and Lyude's characters contained this.

- feelings of doubt concerning a characters behaviour/ nature. Or more general: self-reflection.

VN: Fate. Stay. Night. Seriously, that's a major theme of two of three story routes. It's also a big part of A Drug That Makes You Dream and Kana: Little Sister, and a small part of Heart de Roommate. It's also an aspect of one ending of <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.148564-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Little-My-Maid>Little My Maid, but I'm reluctant to give Ohji credit on the matter, considering what an unmitigated bastard he can be otherwise (which is part of the game's point).

Non-VN: Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are the standouts in my mind. Especially the latter, with main protagonist Luke fon Fabre.

 

[omega 616]

Try FFX, father-son is a nice little dynamic. Tidus-Yuna is an awesome love story.

Many people paint Tidus as a little, whiny ***** but given his circumstances he is rather heartless, despite everything he cries about once.

 

[Manji187]

I may have missed the right games (I sure as hell haven't played em all)...if you can find examples of the abovementioned (preferably with a link to a Youtube video)..do tell.

Have to say, I've rarely seen some of those outside the best visual novels. I'll try to recall some non-VN examples, but...

It made me think about such things as emotions, morality, ethics and philosophy in gaming...and then I came to the startling (for me) conclusion that I've rarely seen any of the following in a game:

- fully developed parent-child relations (I'm not talking "Wake up Crono!")

VN: Part of the plot to any given route of <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.135672-Neutral-Drow-reviews-A-Drug-That-Makes-You-Dream>A Drug That Makes You Dream is Kouhei's acclimation to and demonstration of reciprocal love with his adopted parents. Nayuki's relationship with her mother Akiko in <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.163769-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Kanon>Kanon could also count, though neither are the main (viewpoint) character.

Non-VN: I've heard good things about Heavy Rain in this regard. Nothing else I can recall goes very deeply into the matter.

- fully developed sibling relations (I'm not talking rivalry/ fights)

VN: Both <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.128851-TYPE-MOON-reviews-Tsukihime>Tsukihime and Kana: Little Sister get into this, though both have...interesting twists in the dynamic, let's say, depending on routes chosen. I've heard things about Clannad that suggest this, though neither of the sisters are the main character.

Non-VN: Nothing comes to mind.

- fully developed male-female relations (I'm not talking sexual innuendo)

VN: Pretty much any visual novel that doesn't just use female characters as an excuse for sex (I have no illusions in this matter) can lay some claim to this. Personally, I'd call Fate/Stay Night the great example, though Kana: Little Sister is also good, and Hourglass of Summer appears to be shaping up (I'm not very far in, yet). Even some dating sims get this right.

Non-VN: There's probably a few, but I'm having trouble wrapping my head around what "fully developed" might mean in this case. The example that's coming most to mind is the Marta/Emil relationship in Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World, which was my favorite aspect of the game, but I'm sure there are others.

- fully developed friendship relations (I'm not talking "war buddy, we're in this shit together" crap)

VN: Shiki and Arihiko's relationship in Tsukihime is very much like this, especially if you play the semi-sequel Kagetsu Tohya, which goes into greater detail about their history together and their current interactions. <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.146260-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Heart-de-Roommate>Heart de Roommate is also pretty good in the matter, between both the three girls and the male lead.

Non-VN: Tales of Symphonia comes most to mind, especially if Lloyd becomes close to Genis or Zelos.

- believable display of remorse and feelings of guilt or shame (I've seen enough crocodile tears though)

VN: Anything with a main character given to self-awareness. Of the games I've played, that includes Tsukihime, Fate/Stay Night, A Drug That Makes You Dream, Heart de Roommate, Kanon, and especially Kana: Little Sister.

Non-VN: Again, Tales of Symphonia. It's been a while since I've played Baten Kaitos, but things in Kalas and Lyude's characters contained this.

- feelings of doubt concerning a characters behaviour/ nature. Or more general: self-reflection.

VN: Fate. Stay. Night. Seriously, that's a major theme of two of three story routes. It's also a big part of A Drug That Makes You Dream and Kana: Little Sister, and a small part of Heart de Roommate. It's also an aspect of one ending of <url=http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/326.148564-Neutral-Drow-reviews-Little-My-Maid>Little My Maid, but I'm reluctant to give Ohji credit on the matter, considering what an unmitigated bastard he can be otherwise (which is part of the game's point).

Non-VN: Tales of Symphonia and Tales of the Abyss are the standouts in my mind. Especially the latter, with main protagonist Luke fon Fabre.

Wow...now that's what I call a serious contribution. Thank you. I guess videogames could learn a lot from visual novels.

 

[Vrex360]

Both Bioshock and Mass Effect did the mature well written angle very well. Bioshock had some great authentic atmosphere and Mass Effect had some fantastic characters thrown in as well as one of the best written game romances (in my own opinion and based on my admittedly limited knowledge of game romances) I've ever played, Shepard and Ashley.

True, both aren't exactly realistic but they both demonstrate a good amount of solid writing on the part of the development team.

 

[Dmatix]

If any game will give you feelings of doubt concerning a characters nature, Or self-reflection, its Planescape: Torment. The whole game is pretty much about that.

 

[Lepre-Khan]

Darn. I thought this was about maturity in gamers to which I would respond by saying that all gamers are nerds and thus little children at heart thus making complete maturity impossible. Oh well. So yeah, Bioware is good with maturity (though I did'nt read whatever you put in the spoiler tags because extraneous text and me get along like...extraneous text and me. So I dont really know what the heck is your definition of maturity.) Beyond that, I cant really say if any other developer if EXCEPTIONALLY good at it, but maturity isnt what I look for in my games. A good story (even a goofy one), funness, and decent comedy on the other hand...

 

[Outright Villainy]

As for things you rarely encounter in game plots, a lack of deus ex machinas. Seriously, almost every game you play with a plot will have one, an absolutely improbable event happening for the sole purpose of advancing the plot.

I've just started playing bioshock now, and I love how it just plays with your expectation of it. In the beginning your plane crashes and you stumble upon the underwater city. I wouldn't really question that kind of thing, playing games makes me expect really outlandish stuff. Later on, Andrew ryan says to you "A man builds an underwater city, that's a marvel. A man crashes into the middle of the ocean and just so happens to find said city? Well, that's a... miracle."
Soon after it starts becoming clear everything's a lot more planned than it seems, and I really start getting into it.
This kind of thing would never work in film, where the expectation of plot convenience isn't as strong, and subverting that being a great twist.
So I'm going with bioshock for subverting such tropes so well. It even ties the linearity of the game into the plot, it's great!