ME3 End: Do you agree with the Reapers?

[Unsilenced]

"Stagnation."

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

"Stagnation" is not the same thing as as destruction. The universe is doomed to, in theory, end (though there are a lot of theories that say that won't really be the end.) That is not the same thing as stagnating. Stagnating is remaining unchanging. Ending is different than not changing.


Now, choosing to wipe out organics over and over might be seen as a Kantian alternative to the one big wipe-out, but 1) that's pretty much the exact opposite of what you would expect sociopathic machines to do and 2) it's a false choice.

If synthetics destroy organics, there's nothing to keep them from peacefully dominating the galaxy. If organics lead to war, then we will only have synthetics. Allowing organics to exist is just begging for war.

Then again, if you really think the whole cycle thing is so important, why not just let it happen? I mean, if organics make synthetics that wipe them out, why would you make synthetics to wipe them out? THEY'RE ALREADY GOING TO DO IT THEMSELVES! THE DON'T NEED HELP!

You've made a point of saying how the reapers couldn't wipe *EVERYTHING* out, but who says that the synthetics that would result from the "natural" cycle would? How come they get to break the rules and render the entire galaxy sterile when apparently that's impossible for the reapers to do?

Actually the universe is not "doomed" to "end", it is "doomed" to have all the suns burns out and become a dark place with frozen worlds sitting pitch blackness forever after, that fits the definition of stagnation, which is unchanging.
.
Well
1. They aren't Psychopathic
2. Ending ALL life in the galaxy because at some point in the future they are gonna fuck everything up is stupid.

Using that logic all humans on the planet should just kill themselves right now and alt the earth because at some point in the future we are gonna go extinct anyways. All nations should just stop existing and no new ones should be made because at some point in the future they are gonna cause a war. All people should just quit their jobs and make sure no new ones can ever made made because eventually its gonna go out of business.

Killing everything that exists now and permanently sealing the chance for future life because people in the future are gonna screw up is stupid and ass backwards.
.
Again you are trying to equivocate The Reapers killing of some life with other synthetics killing of ALL life.

Saying why not let Synthetics kill all ife forever because the Reapers are gonna do it anyways isn't an argument because The Reapers AREN'T doing that.

1=/=2 no matter how much you try to make it.
.
I made a point that The Reapers
-could not monitor everything
-destroy every world
The "synthetics kill all life forever bit" =/= once they kill everything in existence now nothing ever come back, just that what does come back is murdered before life can advance far.

The Reapers could keep mostly everything dead if they patrolled around endlessly, things would pop-up here and there, but they would be destroyed.

Ultimately you're still left with the fact that making omnicidal robots to prevent omnicidal robots isn't a logical plan.

ugh....

1 =/= 2
Cars =/= Trucks
Red =/= Green
Killing off only advanced organic life so future organic life can exist =/= Killing of all organic life and make sure any new ones that popup don't make it far.

that argument you tried to make it flawed at its core because you are trying to make two different things be the same.

You said that the reapers could not monitor every world and effectively prevent new organics from forming and re-starting the cycle.

Yet somehow the new synthetics that they're supposed to prevent could?

We've already seen what happens when you have a universe without the Reapers. You get the Reapers. Organics will eventually lead to the Reapers. Since the Reapers are blocking that from happening, the Reapers are, in effect, blocking new Reapers.

There is no level on which that idea makes sense.

Of course, you might argue that while the first time it lead to reapers, it might not the next time. The next time it might lead to something that terribly f***s up everything forever. Ok, but then how do the Reapers know that the cycle will be the same every time? Clearly it won't, otherwise, like I said, they're preventing themselves. Obviously the cycle doesn't repeat in the exact same way every time, and that kind of messes things up.

What if one time it only takes 40K years to develop synthetics that completely smash the crap out of everything? Reapers don't show up soon enough and their whole thing is void. Alternatively, what if one time it doesn't lead to omnicidal robots? The reapers have to realize that the cycle does not repeat perfectly, because one time it produced them (unless, like I said, they're preventing themselves.)


If the cycle is perfect and unchanging, then the Reapers are only preventing more Reapers. Yo dawg.

If the cycle in imperfect, and what lead to the Reapers once could lead to seriously wrecking everything forever the next time, it could also lead to kittens and bunnies the next time, and so the Reapers are going to be, as often as not, preventing kittens and bunnies. Organics do not necessarily lead to wiping out everything forever, and thus the Reaper's argument is flawed.

So what should you do with a bunch of robots in space? Well, if you're cold-hearted you wipe out everything to terminate the cycle. Minimization of suffering. If you're not, and want the most stable solution, you wipe out organics and help the synthetics establish a new civilization. If you're not cold-hearted, and you want to ensure the existence of organic life, you come in and help the organics, defeating the synthetics and preventing them from from being wiped out. There won't be any more synthetic uprisings because you'll be there to curb stomp it before it gets off the ground.

Hanging out in deep space and hoping things turn out just-so however is clearly a stupid solution, as evidenced by the fact that the reapers got their ass kicked by Shepard.

 

[boag]

If The Reapers are one-dimensional so is Dr. Wallace Breen from Half-Life 2, and the Anti-Spirals from TTGL because they use the exact same reasoning to justify their actions, and I would hardly call them one dimensional.
.

Are you even implying that they arent?

TTGL is a mish mash up of every single Mecha Re-Thread, What Gao Gai Gar did to Evangelion, TTGL did to Gao Gai Gar.

If you dont get the references ill be happy to post several lengthy paragraphs explaining it.

 

[DrWilhelm]

I'm well aware that EDI and the Geth poke a nice Canis Majoris sized hole in the Reaper's logic.

The thing is though neither EDI nor the Geth actually prove anything beyond peace was made with The Geth.

Does making peace with the Geth mean the peace would last forever? no
Does it prove the Geth wouldn't kill all organic life at some point? no
Does it prove future synthetic life can be reasoned with? no
Does it prove that even if the peace with the Geth lasts that peace with other Synthetics would last? no
Does it prove there can never be a race of synthetics who kill everything? no
Does it prove anything beyond "peace was made with the Geth for like a week"? no

Not a single thing about EDI or the Geth proves anything The Reapers said wrong.

The Reapers view things on the long count, they see things in eons, trying to take the Geth peace, which had only lasted, what? a week?

You are trying to use a peace that has only existed for a week as proof that everything in the infinite future will be ok.

Maybe the Reaper's do have irrefutable evidence that synthetics will kill all organic life. The keyword there is maybe, because we're never shown this proof. Sure, perhaps the Geth will eventually turn on organics, but again, what evidence do we have to support that? Not once in their history did the Geth attempt to make war on organics, except when they became subverted by a Reaper. When forced to defend themselves from their creators they specifically chose not to commit genocide, and let the Quarians escape. What is there to indicate that the peace won't last? Do you think that organics will force their hands? It is heavily suggested post Rannoch that the Quarians are quickly learning to set aside their prejudices. Surely if the Quarians can get over the deep mistrust of the Geth, then the rest of the galaxy can as well.

And quite frankly, the peace has lasted far longer than merely a week. It's lasted nearly three centuries, or did you forget that to our knowledge the Geth at large have never been at war with any organic species besides the Quarians, who in both cases were the aggressor. Throughout their entire existence the Geth have attempted to avoid conflict. What reason do we have to believe that this will change?

Again: there is no reason to believe that Organics and Synthetics are fundamentally incapable of coexistence aside from the virtually baseless assertions of a genocidal...something. Why should we believe that the Catalyst isn't lying or mistaken?

 

[SajuukKhar]

You said that the reapers could not monitor every world and effectively prevent new organics from forming and re-starting the cycle.

Yet somehow the new synthetics that they're supposed to prevent could?

Actually I said they kill new organic life that popups before it get far. there is a very large difference between that and being able to monitor everything at once and killing them the second the form.

We've already seen what happens when you have a universe without the Reapers. You get the Reapers. Organics will eventually lead to the Reapers. Since the Reapers are blocking that from happening, the Reapers are, in effect, blocking new Reapers.

There is no level on which that idea makes sense.

Considering we have literally zero knowledge on how the Reapers were made that is not entirely true.

There are several possibilities of synthetics killing organics, then The Reapers after that.

Of course, you might argue that while the first time it lead to reapers, it might not the next time. The next time it might lead to something that terribly f***s up everything forever. Ok, but then how do the Reapers know that the cycle will be the same every time? Clearly it won't, otherwise, like I said, they're preventing themselves. Obviously the cycle doesn't repeat in the exact same way every time, and that kind of messes things up.

Considering that The Reapers have been alive for over 1 Billion years which equates to more then 20,000 cycles I would bet The Reapers have seen their fair share of what happens when races get too far. Given Organics natural inclination towards violence them killing themselves one way or another would probably the most likely outcome.

In cases of no synthetic takeover The Reapers murdering everyone would probably be aimed at getting resources for the next cycle and making sure that the races don't fuck up the habitable worlds wth thier self-created genocide too much to make them unlivable so that more races can grow there later.

What if one time it only takes 40K years to develop synthetics that completely smash the crap out of everything? Reapers don't show up soon enough and their whole thing is void. Alternatively, what if one time it doesn't lead to omnicidal robots? The reapers have to realize that the cycle does not repeat perfectly, because one time it produced them (unless, like I said, they're preventing themselves.)

Explained in Me1, The Reapers leave a vanguard behind to routinely check the galaxy to see how stuff is going, 50,000 years is only a rough estimate between cycles, some owuld take longer, some would be shorter.

As for a no synthetic takeover cycle I made mention of it above.

If the cycle is perfect and unchanging, then the Reapers are only preventing more Reapers. Yo dawg.

If the cycle in imperfect, and what lead to the Reapers once could lead to seriously wrecking everything forever the next time, it could also lead to kittens and bunnies the next time, and so the Reapers are going to be, as often as not, preventing kittens and bunnies. Organics do not necessarily lead to wiping out everything forever, and thus the Reaper's argument is flawed.

No cycle would ever be the exact same, there's countless factors to determining what might happen, but that is why the Reapers placed the Mass Relays/citadel, as they themselves said they guide organic evolution to an extent so they always have a good guess on what the cycle will be like.

However as stated above organics natural violence to one another, let alone the violence we would inflict upon alien races, would usually lead to a races self-annihilation at some point. So there's always those types of cycles.

So what should you do with a bunch of robots in space? Well, if you're cold-hearted you wipe out everything to terminate the cycle. Minimization of suffering. If you're not, and want the most stable solution, you wipe out organics and help the synthetics establish a new civilization. If you're not cold-hearted, and you want to ensure the existence of organic life, you come in and help the organics, defeating the synthetics and preventing them from from being wiped out. There won't be any more synthetic uprisings because you'll be there to curb stomp it before it gets off the ground.

Hanging out in deep space and hoping things turn out just-so however is clearly a stupid solution, as evidenced by the fact that the reapers got their ass kicked by Shepard.

Well there's countless factors you are not taking into account in your argument

-There's the exponential increase in speed at which new AI would be made of organics continued to live and were able to continue advancing their technology
-There's the massive resource drains on worlds needed to keep the Reaper fleet constantly on and battle-ready
-There's the natural organic hatred of anything they see as ruling over them
-There's the natural organic desire to try to surpass limits placed on them even if it was done so in their best interest
-There's the exponential increase in the probability of synthetics finding a way to beat the Reapers because of the increase at which they are made
-There's the inevitable conflicts with organics bound to happen because The Reapers use so many resources

There's literally so many things to take into account that it staggers the mind you are trying to make this into a would you do X or Y decision while ignoring everything else that would be resultant because of that decision.

I would do what gets the most races, over the longest period of time, the farthest technologically, while minimizing the negative impact on future races.

Which given the choices of
1. Having one organic killing machine race ruling the galaxy
2. Having tons of organic races across time getting to exist, with many who get to be advanced to the highest state of being known while the others have to die to protect future life.

I would pick something closer to two then 1 becuase it lets most races get father and live past what would normally be their extinction.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Maybe the Reaper's do have irrefutable evidence that synthetics will kill all organic life. The keyword there is maybe, because we're never shown this proof. Sure, perhaps the Geth will eventually turn on organics, but again, what evidence do we have to support that? Not once in their history did the Geth attempt to make war on organics, except when they became subverted by a Reaper. When forced to defend themselves from their creators they specifically chose not to commit genocide, and let the Quarians escape. What is there to indicate that the peace won't last? Do you think that organics will force their hands? It is heavily suggested post Rannoch that the Quarians are quickly learning to set aside their prejudices. Surely if the Quarians can get over the deep mistrust of the Geth, then the rest of the galaxy can as well.

And quite frankly, the peace has lasted far longer than merely a week. It's lasted nearly three centuries, or did you forget that to our knowledge the Geth at large have never been at war with any organic species besides the Quarians, who in both cases were the aggressor. Throughout their entire existence the Geth have attempted to avoid conflict. What reason do we have to believe that this will change?

Again: there is no reason to believe that Organics and Synthetics are fundamentally incapable of coexistence aside from the virtually baseless assertions of a genocidal...something. Why should we believe that the Catalyst isn't lying or mistaken?

Well
1. There was that thing called the mourning war, which is a war the Geth were in before being influenced by The Reapers.

2. Look back on human history and point out to me a peace that has lasted forever? Ohh wait you cant, because it has never happened and never can.

The simple fact of the matter is organics cannot coexist with members of their own race, let alone members of others, for very long without going to violence. War and violence are as inevitable as the rising of the sun.

It is not a matter of if, but of when.
-That very year?
-That decade?
-That century?
-That Millennium?

For what reason?
-Resources?
-Religious differences?
-Political differences?
-Social differences?
-The natural organic hatred and intolerance of anything that isn't them?

All those questions are ultimately irrelevant, because as history has shown time and time again war is inevitable. Its also kind of the point of Fallout also, no matter what happens we WILL go to war again and again till we are all dead.

 

[DrWilhelm]

Well
1. There was that thing called the mourning war, which is a war the Geth were in before being influenced by The Reapers.

2. Look back on human history and point out to me a peace that has lasted forever? Ohh wait you cant, because it has never happened and never can.

The simple fact of the matter is organics cannot coexist with members of their own race, let alone members of others, for very long without going to violence. War and violence are as inevitable as the rising of the sun.

It is not a matter of if, but of when.
-That very year?
-That decade?
-That century?
-That Millennium?

For what reason?
-Resources?
-Religious differences?
-Political differences?
-Social differences?
-The natural organic hatred and intolerance of anything that isn't them?

All those questions are ultimately irrelevant, because as history has shown time and time again war is inevitable.

Read my post again. I mentioned the morning war. The Geth fought back when attacked, and ceased hostilities the very moment it became possible.

That real world humans have never achieved lasting peace is irrelevant, as a) the Geth are not human, and b) human's have never wiped themselves out.

Perhaps at some point in the future, the Geth will go to war with organics, despite having shown no inclination towards such an action thus far. This does not mean that synthetics and organics are incompatable, rather that the Geth behave just like every other species in the galaxy. Being synthetic has nothing to do with it. It certainly does not mean that the war would inevitably end with the extinction of organic life. A ceasefire, or the temporary subjugation of the loser is a far more likely outcome, especially if we're basing our expectations on human history.

Quite frankly, look at the history of the galaxy in Mass Effect. How many genocides have organics commited or attempted to commit, on both organics and synthetics? How many genocides have non-reaper synthetics committed or attempted to commit? I see no reason to believe that synthetic life possesses some innate capacity for genocide that organics lack.

It is also important to emphasise that prejudice can be overcome, or at the very least greatly reduced. While it is natural for humans to distrust what is new, what happens when the unfamiliar becomes the familiar? What happens when the unknown becomes the known? We cease distrusting it. To state that organic life naturally hates and is intolerant towards anything that isn't the same as them is absurd, and is completely nonsensical in the face of Humanity's cooperation with alien races in the Mass Effect series.

It occurs to me now that, judging from information available throughout the series, the Salarians, Turians and Asari have never been to war with each other, along with possibly many of the other races. Perhaps in the context of the Mass Effect universe, an eternal peace is less impossible than you believe.

 

[Grygor]

I actually thought that the existing ending of Mass Effect 3 had decent potential, it just suffered from terrible execution, and that the many excellent theories thought up by fans, including yours, prove this. The guilt induced rationalisation theory is one I particularly like. What I don't understand though is, if Bioware intended us to realise that the Catalyst was lying or wrong, why are we presented with no option to argue with it? Because the only option we're given is to agree with the Catalyst despite having no reason to believe it isn't deliberately misleading us. It just feels like Bioware assumed we'd accept the Catalyst's reasoning without question.

I don't really mind not being able to argue with the Catalyst - I doubt a lone dying human would be able to convince an AI that's tens of millions of years old of anything. Although the case can be made that the choice you make IS arguing with the Catalyst: for example, if you choose destroy, are you actually accepting that all synthetic lifeforms will die, or are you betting on the Catalyst being wrong?

I'm more bothered by some of the other plot holes and WTF moments around the finale, like:

How do they actually move the Citadel to Earth? We've been given no reason so far to believe the station is mobile. Moving it to Earth should be given more than just a casual "oh yeah, they moved the Citadel" - to say nothing of the millions of inhabitants who are in all likelihood dead now.

Why do the reapers even have a conduit onto the Citadel on Earth in the first place? It's heavily implied they're using it for processing bodies, but they have processor ships for that already...

If the reapers have enough control over the Citadel to move it to Earth, why don't they use the Citadel to deactivate the relay network altogether, preventing the final battle on Earth from even taking place?

The Crucible is shown docking at the bottom of the Citadel tower, a location that is completely unobstructed by the Citadel's arms, so why does it matter if the arms are closed or not? Especially since the Presidium end of the station doesn't seal when the arms are closed...

And so on...

 

[SajuukKhar]

Read my post again. I mentioned the morning war. The Geth fought back when attacked, and ceased hostilities the very moment it became possible.

Well its more like the Quarrians ran away and thus the Geth had no one to fight.

Also Legion makes it clear that the Geth will defend themselves if necessary. In a war between Organics/Synthetics I would think the organics would start it.

That real world humans have never achieved lasting peace is irrelevant, as a) the Geth are not human, and b) human's have never wiped themselves out.

Considering that all the races in the ME universe with the possible exception of The Reapers, are based off of human social, political, religious, etc. systems/ideals but overblown they are subject to the same faults as us.

Just because they are called something else doesn't mean that they aren't still human thinking and don't have the exact same faults as us, because they do. If we were talking about a true aliens species your argument would have some merit but we are not.

Also just because we haven't killed ourselves yet doesn't mean we wont.

Perhaps at some point in the future, the Geth will go to war with organics, despite having shown no inclination towards such an action thus far. This does not mean that synthetics and organics are incompatable, rather that the Geth behave just like every other species in the galaxy. Being synthetic has nothing to do with it. It certainly does not mean that the war would inevitably end with the extinction of organic life. A ceasefire, or the temporary subjugation of the loser is a far more likely outcome, especially if we're basing our expectations on human history.

Except you know the whole mourning war, and the Geth who willingly followed the Reapers in Me1, because two wars is no evidence of war.

Ceasefires and subjugation only leaved to increased hatred, which in turn leads to increased hostilities, which in turn leads to a high probably scenario were the Geth determine we cannot be controlled and just decide to kill us.

Why would they want organics who constantly attack them, and never fully trust/tolerate them around?

Quite frankly, look at the history of the galaxy in Mass Effect. How many genocides have organics commited or attempted to commit, on both organics and synthetics? How many genocides have non-reaper synthetics committed or attempted to commit? I see no reason to believe that synthetic life possesses some innate capacity for genocide that organics lack.

Lets see the Reapers have been Reaping for over 1 billion years, given an average of 50,000 years per cycle equals at least 20,000 cycles, and given our past history of enslavement of members of our own species, the Rachnai genocide, the attempted Geth genocide, the attempted Krogan genocide, I would say there has probably been a lot across time.

Organics don't lack the qualities to commit Genocide, synthetics are just countless times more likely to do it successfully.

It is also important to emphasise that prejudice can be overcome, or at the very least greatly reduced. While it is natural for humans to distrust what is new, what happens when the unfamiliar becomes the familiar? What happens when the unknown becomes the known? We cease distrusting it. To state that organic life naturally hates and is intolerant towards anything that isn't the same as them is absurd, and is completely nonsensical in the face of Humanity's cooperation with alien races in the Mass Effect series.

Reduced =/= gone, so long as prejudice exists in any form the possibility for a eventual war is 100%. All it takes is one action, one murder, one death and the end would be upon us, and although the chances of it happening at any one time are low over time they become certainty.

Secondly if knowing something actually made our distrust of it go away the world would be a lot better place then it is. If anything knowing something can make people hate and distrust it more. Knowing what someone can do can be far more intimidating then imaging what one can do.

Thirdly it was never a argument of never being able to get along with other, it was a matter of not being able to STAY getting along with others forever. That is problem.

It occurs to me now that, judging from information available throughout the series, the Salarians, Turians and Asari have never been to war with each other, along with possibly many of the other races. Perhaps in the context of the Mass Effect universe, an eternal peace is less impossible than you believe.

If It were The Reapers would not be needed, the Geth war would have never happened, the First Contact war, the Rachnai war, the korgan war, and the countless untold wars and battles in the various races past.

Lasting peace cannot exist so long as two different things exist.

 

[KingofMadCows]

The problem with the Reaper's "solution" is that it shouldn't actually work.

For one, there are 400 billion stars in the galaxy. If intelligent life only evolves on a tiny fraction of them, we are still talking about millions of worlds and if synthetic rebellion is inevitable then how exactly would the Reapers be able stop it from ever happening in the entire galaxy?

Not to mention the fact that the Reapers are not thorough enough to actually defeat a synthetic enemy. Just look at all the Prothean technology and archives they left behind. A synthetic race would be able to easily survive a purge by leaving behind tech like the Protheans or just flying to the middle of nowhere and wait the Reapers out.

There's also the fact that if the Reaper's assumption is true then they've already lost since synthetics would already be the dominant power in the universe. And it's just a matter of time before the Milky Way gets invaded by synthetics from other galaxies.

 

[SajuukKhar]

For one, there are 400 billion stars in the galaxy. If intelligent life only evolves on a tiny fraction of them, we are still talking about millions of worlds and if synthetic rebellion is inevitable then how exactly would the Reapers be able stop it from ever happening in the entire galaxy?

That is the whole point of The Reaper vanguard, it sits around scanning the galaxy looking for the signs that synthetics are about to be made.

 

[DrWilhelm]

I actually thought that the existing ending of Mass Effect 3 had decent potential, it just suffered from terrible execution, and that the many excellent theories thought up by fans, including yours, prove this. The guilt induced rationalisation theory is one I particularly like. What I don't understand though is, if Bioware intended us to realise that the Catalyst was lying or wrong, why are we presented with no option to argue with it? Because the only option we're given is to agree with the Catalyst despite having no reason to believe it isn't deliberately misleading us. It just feels like Bioware assumed we'd accept the Catalyst's reasoning without question.

I don't really mind not being able to argue with the Catalyst - I doubt a lone dying human would be able to convince an AI that's tens of millions of years old of anything. Although the case can be made that the choice you make IS arguing with the Catalyst: for example, if you choose destroy, are you actually accepting that all synthetic lifeforms will die, or are you betting on the Catalyst being wrong?

I'm more bothered by some of the other plot holes and WTF moments around the finale, like:

How do they actually move the Citadel to Earth? We've been given no reason so far to believe the station is mobile. Moving it to Earth should be given more than just a casual "oh yeah, they moved the Citadel" - to say nothing of the millions of inhabitants who are in all likelihood dead now.

Why do the reapers even have a conduit onto the Citadel on Earth in the first place? It's heavily implied they're using it for processing bodies, but they have processor ships for that already...

If the reapers have enough control over the Citadel to move it to Earth, why don't they use the Citadel to deactivate the relay network altogether, preventing the final battle on Earth from even taking place?

The Crucible is shown docking at the bottom of the Citadel tower, a location that is completely unobstructed by the Citadel's arms, so why does it matter if the arms are closed or not? Especially since the Presidium end of the station doesn't seal when the arms are closed...

And so on...

Oh hells yes, the motivations of the Reapers is only one of many headscratchers.

I love how not one person spares a single thought for the fates of the citadel's inhabitants, especially after the emotional agony Shepard and the squad members go through over the game. I mean, it's the damned Citadel! The most important location in the entire setting, bustling with millions upon millions of various sapient life forms! No one? Not one word?

On the citadel points, Anderson mentions long before the Ilusive Man discovers what the catalyst is that the Reapers are building something weird in London. But several characters say that they must have moved the Citadel to stymie the crucible plan, and this is never contradicted once they arrive at Earth and see the beam of light. In addition, if the Reapers could take the Citadel so easily, why had they not done so before? Was it because a lot of the fleet was distracted with the Cerberus base at the time?

Actually I did notice that something had been blocking that area of the Citadel in one of the cutscenes showing the Citadel either opening or closing at the end. I was not at all clear though. I was more concerned with how the area appears to be exposed to the vacuum of space throughout Shepard's interactions with the Catalyst.

Finally my problem with arguing with the Catalyst has more do with how you aren't even given the option to, which seems so out of place for Shepard. I'd be okay with the Catalyst convincing me that it is actually correct, if it had some good evidence. But Shepard verbally spars with just about everyone he meets. Here he's just like, "yeah whatever you say kid, I mean I'm pretty much fucked anyway so it's not like it affects me, you know..."

There's just so many damned questions that need answering.

 

[KingofMadCows]

For one, there are 400 billion stars in the galaxy. If intelligent life only evolves on a tiny fraction of them, we are still talking about millions of worlds and if synthetic rebellion is inevitable then how exactly would the Reapers be able stop it from ever happening in the entire galaxy?

That is the whole point of The Reaper vanguard, it sits around scanning the galaxy looking for the signs that synthetics are about to be made.

Except it wouldn't actually be possible for a single Reaper to constantly scan billions if not trillions of cubic light years of space.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Except it wouldn't actually be possible for a single Reaper to constantly scan billions if not trillions of cubic light years of space.

He really wouldn't need to.

Any sufficiently advanced race that could make super-kill bots would have found the Mass Relay system and all he would have to do is get a indoctrinated thrall to go there catch up on the latest news and come back.

 

[Unsilenced]

Which given the choices of
1. Having one organic killing machine race ruling the galaxy
2. Having tons of organic races across time getting to exist, with many who get to be advanced to the highest state of being known while the others have to die to protect future life.

I would pick something closer to two then 1 because it lets most races get father and live past what would normally be their extinction.

You'd rather continually commit genocide than allow one species to advance. That's pretty inhumane if you consider the total suffering that causes, plus the fact that it doesn't allow anything to move past that stage in their advancement.


And we know that the reapers don't have massive upkeep unless they're actively fighting something, which they wouldn't be all the time. They can stay in deep space for 50K years, the organics would not have to strain to keep them on standby in case of a synthetic uprising.

The reapers wouldn't be ruling over the organics so much as they would be a weapon at their disposal. In case of synthetic uprising, break glass.

"Don't make a sentient AI without a killswitch" isn't a hard rule to follow, and it's kind of silly that it *always* seems to happen anyways in sci-fi, but the knowledge that AI leads to the destruction of organics would probably discourage most organics from producing AI. If for some reason however they *do* decide to make an entire army and/or fleet of AI and happened to be drunk on "Mad Scientist Apocalypse Prevention Safety Day," the combined Reaper and organic fleets will be more than enough to stop it.

Your argument to this would probably be that someday, probably eventually there would be something absolutely unprecedented that would cause a mass of armed, unrestricted AI to form at such a rate that the Reapers and organics could not overcome them, but so, so much would have to go wrong at the same time for this to happen that it's not even funny. Considering the other possible ways in which the galaxy could be screwed over, that would be pretty low on the list.

The fact that the plan isn't flawless doesn't hold water because clearly the Reaper's strategy had a pretty big hole in it as well, as evidenced by that time they got beaten.

Ultimately what it comes down to is the idea of looking into the future, flailing your arms and going "IT'S TOO DANGEROUS! ABORT! ABORT! KILL EVERYTHING WE JUST CAN'T DO THIS!"

Looking over the history of just our planet, it's pretty clear what happen when something threatens to wipe out organics: The organics don't get wiped out.




But let's assume for a second though that organics just really have a hard-on for self destruction, because evolution is for sissies. Why would anyone want to preserve them? If organics are really that doomed to exterminate themselves, there's no reason to keep hitting the reset. It's like if someone decided they were going to continuously glass and re-build the Earth because they just really, really liked the Dodo bird. If organics are that hard-wired to be stupid (and it's an absurd argument that they are,) there's no reason to try to preserve them. Synthetics should just be allowed to rule the galaxy. Even if you accept the stale, boxed sci-fi morality lesson logic the Reapers are based on, they've still reached the wrong conclusion.

 

[KingofMadCows]

Except it wouldn't actually be possible for a single Reaper to constantly scan billions if not trillions of cubic light years of space.

He really wouldn't need to.

Any sufficiently advanced race that could make super-kill bots would have found the Mass Relay system and all he would have to do is get a indoctrinated thrall to go there catch up on the latest news and come back.

Except that's based on the false assumption that all technological advancement proceeds at the same level. There's nothing to guarantee that a species can develop that level of space travel technology before they develop artificial intelligence.

Also, the organic-synthetic conflict has nothing to do with super-kill bots. The Geth were made to be workers, not soldiers. Javik also talked about a race that used cybernetics to sustain themselves but the AI they used betrayed them and turned them into slaves.

There's also the fact that Sovereign didn't actually do anything about the Geth for 300 years.

 

[DrWilhelm]

Well its more like the Quarrians ran away and thus the Geth had no one to fight.

Also Legion makes it clear that the Geth will defend themselves if necessary. In a war between Organics/Synthetics I would think the organics would start it.

During the Geth Virtual Reality mission it is outright stated that the Geth could have pursued and wiped out the quarians. They chose not to. Further, the geth initially reacted non-violently to the deactivation order, it was only when events escalated that they became violent as a response.

And if organics did initiate a war, judging from past behaviour, the geth would fight back until the opportunity for a ceasefire presented itself.

Also just because we haven't killed ourselves yet doesn't mean we wont.

If something has never happened it is not inevitable.

Except you know the whole mourning war, and the Geth who willingly followed the Reapers in Me1, because two wars is no evidence of war.

Ceasefires and subjugation only leaved to increased hatred, which in turn leads to increased hostilities, which in turn leads to a high probably scenario were the Geth determine we cannot be controlled and just decide to kill us.

Why would they want organics who constantly attack them, and never fully trust/tolerate them around?

I've already adressed the Morning War adequately, and blaming the geth as a whole for the acts of a splinter group is akin to blaming humanity as a whole for the atrocities of Cerberus.

You also seem to be implying that the only acceptable result to a war is the complete extermination of the loser. Should the Allies have killed everyone living in Axis countries after World War 2? Or are you implying that at any moment Germany, Japan and all the rest are about to go berserk from all that built up hatred.

Lets see the Reapers have been Reaping for over 1 billion years, given an average of 50,000 years per cycle equals at least 20,000 cycles, and given our past history of enslavement of members of our own species, the Rachnai genocide, the attempted Geth genocide, the attempted Krogan genocide, I would say there has probably been a lot across time.

Organics don't lack the qualities to commit Genocide, synthetics are just countless times more likely to do it successfully.

Once again you clearly didn't read what I wrote. I specified non-reaper synthetics, unless you wish to admit that for their logic to make sense, the reapers must have already wiped out all organic life, which has clearly not happened.

So ignoring the reapers, every documented case of genocide and attempted genocide that we're aware of was performed by organics? Why are we blaming synthetics again? Again; what evidence is there that synthetics will inevitably exterminate all organic life? All we have are hypotheticals influenced by the "rebellious robots" cliches that permeate the genre, and have little bearing upon Mass Effect.

Reduced =/= gone, so long as prejudice exists in any form the possibility for a eventual war is 100%. All it takes is one action, one murder, one death and the end would be upon us, and although the chances of it happening at any one time are low over time they become certainty.

Secondly if knowing something actually made our distrust of it go away the world would be a lot better place then it is. If anything knowing something can make people hate and distrust it more. Knowing what someone can do can be far more intimidating then imaging what one can do.

Thirdly it was never a argument of never being able to get along with other, it was a matter of not being able to STAY getting along with others forever. That is problem.

I think you'll find that as the years pass by humanities prejudices are reduced, particularly in more developed areas of the world. It used to be that people were intolerant of people from neighbouring villages. Over the past century prejudices towards minorities have decreased tremendously, and have decreased even further by the time frame of the Mass Effect series, where humans getting it on en masse with freaky aliens is barely enough to cause raised eyebrows.

If It were The Reapers would not be needed, the Geth war would have never happened, the First Contact war, the Rachnai war, the korgan war, and the countless untold wars and battles in the various races past.

Lasting peace cannot exist so long as two different things exist.

The entire point is that, judging from their abortion of logic, the reapers are not needed.

And if lasting peace cannot exist, how have the Asari, Turians and Salarians managed to coexist for thousands of years without one of them trying to wipe the others out. It seems that in the Mass Effect universe extreme long term peace is not guaranteed, but it is possible.

Your entire premise of "different things cannot coexist" requires a hell of a lot more explanation. I'm different to my brother and yet we get along fairly well. I'm different to my dogs, and yet I have no desire to exterminate them. How "different" are we talking here. Because as you previously stated, all species in Mass Effect have fundamental similarities to humans. Does this not include artificial intelligences? Firstly, why? Secondly, I need only point at EDI, who as I have previously mentioned, comes across as just as human, just as organic, as any other crew member. And if EDI can display traits of an organic-like personality, why can the geth not. As Grygor reminded us, Legion displays traits of organic thinking in Mass Effect 2, before the geth even attain true consciousness. The Presidium AI also appears to be thinking in much the same manner as an organic, specifically it seems frightened and paranoid.

 

[Unsilenced]

Re: Peace between different things.

Too lazy to go quote it, but yeah. Things don't kill each other because they are different, they kill each other because they compete. Americans are different from Canadians, but you don't see us lobbing nukes at each other because we're not in competition. In WWII, we didn't fight Japan because they were different, we fought them because they wanted our oil. Germany and Russia didn't fight just because "HEY! THEY SPEAK DIFFERENT!" They fought because Fascism and Communism were competing ideologies.


Competition is inevitable, but it rarely goes to the point of extermination. Ultimately synthetics would be nothing more than another race, just like any other.

 

[DrWilhelm]

Re: Peace between different things.

Too lazy to go quote it, but yeah. Things don't kill each other because they are different, they kill each other because they compete. Americans are different from Canadians, but you don't see us lobbing nukes at each other because we're not in competition. In WWII, we didn't fight Japan because they were different, we fought them because they wanted our oil. Germany and Russia didn't fight just because "HEY! THEY SPEAK DIFFERENT!" They fought because Fascism and Communism were competing ideologies.


Competition is inevitable, but it rarely goes to the point of extermination. Ultimately synthetics would be nothing more than another race, just like any other.

This is why I prefer "rebellious robot" stories when the robots in question are unthinking; follwing their programming to an unforseen and horrifying end. I suspect that a true artificial intelligence is unlikely to be all too different from whatever race spawned it.

 

[SajuukKhar]

snip

Yes, but that assumes organics are logical enough to accept a ceasefire. However members of extremest [insert social concept here] groups are not known to do so. Nor does that mean after repeated attacks and wars the Geth wouldn't decide organics aren't worth it anymore.

You are again taking one result of peace and trying to proclaim that it will be the same for all time.
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The heat death of the universe says hi, as does WW3.
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The mourning war was not caused by a splinter group. This was pre-reaper influence and thus when the Geth were one.

Also I never said or implied complete destruction was the only acceptable solution, just that not doing so would lead to hatred which would eventually lead to another war, not that said hatred would be the primary reason. All actions that have ever happened influence all future actions.

Some old Nazi survivors hatred of people could impact his son which impacts his son and so on and so on which could make his future descendant more likely to cause a war, unrelated to WW2 or the Nazi ideals, in the future.
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Actually you specifically mentioned
"How many genocides have organics commited or attempted to commit, on both organics and synthetics?"
which is what I was responding to, clearly you didn't read what I typed and assumed I was talking about The Reapers when I was quite clearly talking about the potential genocides the countless races that have existed in the 20,000+ cycles have committed.

Secondly we are blaming synthetics because while organics ATTEMPT to commit genocide they are rarely actually capable of going through with it all the way and they don't kill EVERYTHING but themselves, which Synthetics do.

Also I don't think it would be because of "rebellion robots" more of a case of Synethitcs defining themselves against intolerant organic aggression. I am not seeing a SKYNET scenario were machines are just evil, but more of a Matrix scenario were humans started it and lost.
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And that still doesn't account for the fact that prejudice can never fully be removed and that as long as it exists the chance of war happening at some point becomes 100% because inevitably there will be some fucktard who does something that pisses off one side or the other.

Hell it doesn't even have to be about hating synthetics but a case of "synthetics are taking resources we want"
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Its only been about 2,600 years since the Asari and Salarains met which is still extremely short term, your trying to use short count logic for long count matters. The fact of the matter is they could have co-existed for a million years and there would be a point sometime in the future were they go to war. War and violence is an inevitability, that is a undeniable fact of all life.

Again you are using short count logic for long count matters, and trying to take a 1V1 matter as a entire race matter.

Furthermore you cannot truthfully tell me there has not been a single point in your life were you did not want to hit your brother because of something he did. Him being your brother, and the fact that whatever he does is normally of trivial importance, means it doesn't piss you off for long.

However as the gravity of situation increases so does the level of emotions related to them. In the case of Geth harvesting resources that both they and a organic group feels it needs with neither side budging could result in one side, most likely the organics, using violence which causes the Geth to respond which in turn causes other organics to hate them for killing organics, which leads to war. One example of many.

As individuals we are not normally prone to acts of extreme violence, although there have been MANY who are, but as a civilization our actions are increased exponentially.
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As for Legion and EDI showing individuality, and other organic thinking, that is the very reason I had the entire Geth race killed in ME3 after Legion tried to upgrade all the Geth.

Almost all known organic thinking, humans included, with the exception of a few number of animals such as ants, is based around the need to serve oneself. human thought is based on egotism, arrogance, a need to serve oneself above other, the belief of being better then others.

It is these traits which are at the very core of all human, and all individualistic thought, that cause war. So long as two individuals exist one will think themselves the others better, which will lead to some animosity and hate between the two.

While humans have tried to suppress these thoughts in what is a ironically arrogant belief of civility these things cannot be removed or ever fully go away, and as long as we have them we are genetically doomed to destruction.

The only way to stop war is to make everyone literally the same, as it would be the only way to remove these genetic mental pre-sets.
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Now that I think about it The Reapers probably should have just flown in, told everyone how fucked they are because of their mental programming, offered them the chance to be Reapers removing all the negatives of organic thought, and then just killed everyone else who refused and was dooming their race to eventually annihilation. That probably would have been easier.

Although The Reapers would need a way to share all their information amongst each-other in a way that no Reaper could tell who the original source was to be perfect.

 

[SajuukKhar]

Re: Peace between different things.

Too lazy to go quote it, but yeah. Things don't kill each other because they are different, they kill each other because they compete. Americans are different from Canadians, but you don't see us lobbing nukes at each other because we're not in competition. In WWII, we didn't fight Japan because they were different, we fought them because they wanted our oil. Germany and Russia didn't fight just because "HEY! THEY SPEAK DIFFERENT!" They fought because Fascism and Communism were competing ideologies.


Competition is inevitable, but it rarely goes to the point of extermination. Ultimately synthetics would be nothing more than another race, just like any other.

Just wait till the resource wars that are inevitably going to happen in the future.

When we get there it will become an all out free-for-all.