ME3 End: Do you agree with the Reapers?

[Frozen Donkey Wheel2]

Well, no. It's not even a matter of opinion. They are provably wrong. They say they harvest organic lifeforms every 50,000 years to stop them from being wiped out by their synthetics. They assume that this wiping out is inevitable. But in Mass Effect 3, you make peace between the Quarians and Geth. Hell, the Geth say they've only ever fought organics in defense. So.....Yeah. The Reapers can suck it.

And hell, even some kind of genocide of organics WAS unavoidable, I can think of about a million ways to prevent it right off the top of my head that are easier then the forced destruction and harvesting of all civilization. Like maybe TALKING to them.


So basically, nothing the Reapers have ever done makes any goddamn sense.

 

[SajuukKhar]

No, it has not been shown, and it is not true.

The most efficient method would be for the Reapers to oversee and ensure DIRECTLY that synthetics (super-powerful ones at least) aren't created without wiping out entire species on a whim. If they only wiped out the technology of a species, that'd be one thing, but slaughtering countless innocents when there is a less-murderous alternative is assholerey to the largest degree.

It's the difference between the god of the Bible (asshole that slaughters people every couple of thousands of years for vague hand-waved reasons) and...well, any half-decent theoretical ultra-powerful being.

The thing is though is that none of the alternatives could provide an even remotely similar chance of preventing a synthetic outbreak.

The Reaper's CANNOT oversee every possible world were someone could make a base and build AI, what you are suggesting they do is similar to large media corporations demand that services like Megaupload, may it IP, filter and scan every file that goes through it.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to have that level of oversight even on ONE world, let alone thousands.

Well, no. It's not even a matter of opinion. They are provably wrong. They say they harvest organic lifeforms every 50,000 years to stop them from being wiped out by their synthetics. They assume that this wiping out is inevitable. But in Mass Effect 3, you make peace between the Quarians and Geth. Hell, the Geth say they've only ever fought organics in defense. So.....Yeah. The Reapers can suck it.

And hell, even some kind of genocide of organics WAS unavoidable, I can think of about a million ways to prevent it right off the top of my head that are easier then the forced destruction and harvesting of all civilization. Like maybe TALKING to them.


So basically, nothing the Reapers have ever done makes any goddamn sense.

What you forget is that the Geth/Quarrian peace as it was, was ONLY possible because the Rapers existed.

No Reapers = no sovereign = No evil Saren = no Geth attack on eden Prime = no Shepard doing anything in ME1 = no collectors killing shep in Me2 = no Legion being sent to find Shepard = no Shepard finding Legion = no Geth/Quarrian understanding.

How people can constantly claim that the peace is proof of the Reapers being wrong when the peace is
1. entirely dependent on the Reapers existence
2. does not guarantee the peace would last forever
3. does not guarantee that peace could be made with future synthetics
is beyond me but it is highly illogical and speaks volumes of how little people think things out.

Had the Reapers not existed the Quarrians and other organics would still hate the geth, would still attack the Geth out of fear/hatred, and would very likely end up resulting in a war.

 

[J Tyran]

You protect organics fro synthetics by killing organics with your synthetics.

Um... Here's an idea, catalyst, why don't you use your invincible, unstoppable fleet of ega-ships to protect organics from synthetics? Wouldn't that be less effort and less risk for the same result?.

Or the Reapers could be more specific and only destroy organic races on the cusp of developing a dangerous race of synthetics. The only way the Reapers make sense is if the creators of the catalyst and the Reapers faced a terrible apocalypse and barely survived it, its possible it was even intergalactic in nature. The catalyst claims that the Citadel is only "part" of it, maybe there are Citadels in other galaxies. That theoretical war might have put all organic life, everywhere in many galaxies at risk.

The other reason they are so severe is that they don't want organic civilisation to surpass the Reaper technology. The Protheans seemed on the cusp of that, they where beginning to understand the function of the mass relays and knew enough to replicate them on a basic level. Given another millennia or so they might have progressed enough to resist the Reapers.

 

[godofallu]

I didn't agree with the Reapers even though I wanted to, simple because Bioware intentionally made it so the reapers were unpersuasive.

They could have created a more interesting/fleshed out path of reasoning for the Reapers destruction of all organic life. Instead they just say a line or two about how they have to kill us to save us. Vaguest line ever.

I get that they didn't want us to side with the reapers because that would make the entire trilogy pointless, but I think the twist would have been interesting and made the final decision more difficult.

All in all i'm ok with choosing to let the galaxy die, in order to let future life have a chance. It would have made me feel good knowing that the end was for the best, and I had a choice in the destruction. Choosing to be obliterated for the greater good, now that's how you do martyrdom. Not on an individual level, but on a galactic level.

 

[Jadak]

Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)

That "counter argument" probably annoys me more than anything else that's been mentioned.

It's completely missing the point. Yes, the Geth and Quarians made up, but for what, a week, maybe a month before the final battle rolls around? The Reaper logic is based on inevitably, not any single event or timespan. Sure, the Geth are alright now, but what about a thousand years from now? A million?

Hell, even if the Geth stayed friendly indefinitely, it's not about the Geth. The point is that it will and does happen, over and over again by different races, in different places, at different times. The fact that some of those AIs may turn out just fine makes no difference to the goals of the Reapers, those goals are based on the belief that it only needs to go badly once. One AI rebellion where the AIs get the upperhand and that's it, game over.

And that's just on the hostile front, even if an AI empire like the Geth stayed generally peaceful, machines aren't usually prone to the same sort of eventual self destruction as organic civilizations, and what you're left with is never ending expansion. With an ever growing never resting AI empire in the galaxy, how long until the organic races turn on them anyways simply out of fear or need of resources, forcing the issue?

Anyways...Point being, the Geth and Quarians getting along in no way refutes the reasoning behind the Reapers process, singular events do not change anything when the time frame in question is millions or billions of years.

 

[SajuukKhar]

That "counter argument" probably annoys me more than anything else that's been mentioned.

It's completely missing the point. Yes, the Geth and Quarians made up, but for what, a week, maybe a month before the final battle rolls around? The Reaper logic is based on inevitably, not any single event or timespan. Sure, the Geth are alright now, but what about a thousand years from now? A million?

Hell, even if the Geth stayed friendly indefinitely, it's not about the Geth. The point is that it will and does happen, over and over again by different races, in different places, at different times. The fact that some of those AIs may turn out just fine makes no difference to the goals of the Reapers, those goals are based on the belief that it only needs to go badly once. One AI rebellion where the AIs get the upperhand and that's it, game over.

And that's just on the hostile front, even if an AI empire like the Geth stayed generally peaceful, machines aren't usually prone to the same sort of eventual self destruction as organic civilizations, and what you're left with is never ending expansion. With an ever growing never resting AI empire in the galaxy, how long until the organic races turn on them anyways simply out of fear or need of resources, forcing the issue?

Anyways...Point being, the Geth and Quarians getting along in no way refutes the reasoning behind the Reapers process, singular events do not change anything when the time frame in question is millions or billions of years.

Omg someone who gets it.

I have had to repeat that point at least 5 times but people still somehow miss it.

 

[Jadak]

Or the Reapers could be more specific and only destroy organic races on the cusp of developing a dangerous race of synthetics.

You counter that argument with the 2nd half of your own post...

The other reason they are so severe is that they don't want organic civilisation to surpass the Reaper technology. The Protheans seemed on the cusp of that, they where beginning to understand the function of the mass relays and knew enough to replicate them on a basic level. Given another millennia or so they might have progressed enough to resist the Reapers.

If the Reapers only targets races approaching that 'danger zone', it then tips of all other races that theirs a super advanced hostile race that likes to show up and exterminate people, giving them an infinite amount of time to advance and prepare against that exact threat so long as they don't happen to develop AIs in the meantime.

Really just bad practice for the Reapers to tip their end when they're not going to follow through, best to just kill everything once they've revealed themselves.

 

[JoesshittyOs]

Nope.

In the end, it's a pretty fucking stupid concept. The thing I noticed was that there really wasn't any "war" in the Mass Effect universe. Hell, besides space pirates and malfunctioning robots, there really wasn't much of a fighting problem.

And really, attempting to stop space pirates is a crime within itself.

 

[J Tyran]

You counter that argument with the 2nd half of your own post...

See where I put "the other reason"........

 

[MPerce]

I don't. But my Shepard sorta did (green explosion).
Her character arc was quite interesting in the third game.

But it makes sense in its own way. If galactic civilization reaches a certain point of technological achievement and then breaks out in a massive war, there's a good chance that huge chunks of the galaxy will be rendered inhospitable (a point proven in the Mass Effect universe by the Krogan Rebellions, where the Krogan slammed asteroids into planets). Eventually, all organic life would be destroyed. So the Reapers' job is to remove these civilizations but leave behind the less developed species, restarting the evolutionary cycle.

The "Freespace" games in the 90's used the exact same concept with their bad guys, the Shivans: Humans and aliens beating the shit outta each other, colonizing planets, upsetting balance of nature on said planets, so the Shivans came in and tried to wipe everyone out.

 

[Syzygy23]

Well if

A leads to An, An leads to B, B leads to Bn, and Bn leads to 0A

With
A=organics
An=many organics
B=Synthetics
Bn=many synthetics
0A= no organics

Then the most logical response would be to destroy A to prevent B from happening.

Also while they could just destroy B the fact that A remains as it, i.e. at the point that they could make AI, was means the next occurrence of B would be significantly more soon then had they just destroyed A, which would cause a drastic increase in resources needed to fuel what would become an eternal continuous slaughter of B.

It is an exceedingly cold train of though, but a logical one in its reasoning.

Yeah, that would make sense if you had the reasoning capacity of Charles Babbages computational difference engine.

These are REAPERS. They house the most advanced AI ever seen. And yet EDI, positively primitive by Reaper standards, makes more sensible decisions than them.

 

[Syzygy23]

Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)

That "counter argument" probably annoys me more than anything else that's been mentioned.

It's completely missing the point. Yes, the Geth and Quarians made up, but for what, a week, maybe a month before the final battle rolls around? The Reaper logic is based on inevitably, not any single event or timespan. Sure, the Geth are alright now, but what about a thousand years from now? A million?

Hell, even if the Geth stayed friendly indefinitely, it's not about the Geth. The point is that it will and does happen, over and over again by different races, in different places, at different times. The fact that some of those AIs may turn out just fine makes no difference to the goals of the Reapers, those goals are based on the belief that it only needs to go badly once. One AI rebellion where the AIs get the upperhand and that's it, game over.

And that's just on the hostile front, even if an AI empire like the Geth stayed generally peaceful, machines aren't usually prone to the same sort of eventual self destruction as organic civilizations, and what you're left with is never ending expansion. With an ever growing never resting AI empire in the galaxy, how long until the organic races turn on them anyways simply out of fear or need of resources, forcing the issue?

Anyways...Point being, the Geth and Quarians getting along in no way refutes the reasoning behind the Reapers process, singular events do not change anything when the time frame in question is millions or billions of years.

That's assuming that organic races just stop advancing cybernetics technology forever. At some point, man would become indistinguishable from the machine, so the whole Organics vs. synthetics argument is fucking dumb right out of the gate.

Criminy, how can people still be struggling with these concepts? Has NO ONE played Deus Ex? That scenario was more plausible than anything in Mass Effect.

 

[SajuukKhar]

That's assuming that organic races just stop advancing cybernetics technology forever. At some point, man would become indistinguishable from the machine, so the whole Organics vs. synthetics argument is fucking dumb right out of the gate.

Criminy, how can people still be struggling with these concepts? Has NO ONE played Deus Ex? That scenario was more plausible than anything in Mass Effect.

Your argument assumes that organics can throw off all religious, social, and political opposition to said advancement, which would be a lot, in a time frame quick enough to allow for organics to reach the level of synthetics before organic's natural aggression, synthetics rapid devlopment, and countless other factors causes a sythetic organic war.

And that is a MASSIVE IF.

And to think that such a massive assumption is any justification for not killing anyone is flawed logic.

 

[Avatar Roku]

snip

Not quoting any one specific post of yours, just a general argument.

One of my biggest problems with the Reapers' motivation is that it is that same thought process that leads to wars between organics and synthetics in the first place. Look at the Geth. Look at the AI on the Citadel in the first game. Look at the VI on Luna (the motivations for which we find out in 3, because it was an early form of EDI). All of them fought organics for the same reason: if they did not, organics would have wiped them out because they were afraid that they would be wiped out in turn. It's a feedback loop, essentially. The entire mindset is toxic. And yet, rather than trying to fix that mindset in some way, the Reapers just play into it.

Hell, in all those cases (except, arguably, the AI on the Citadel, but he still made it clear he was acting in preparation for Organic action, it just had not happened yet, and he was basing it off of very real precedents), the synthetics are very clearly NOT the aggressors. They would be content to just do their own thing. This had been established enough that, come ME3, I had pretty much considered that a law of the ME universe. So then, suddenly, we're given this idea that, no, the synthetics are the problem, the synthetics have to be prevented. It just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Braedan]

The best solution to a machine would be to wipe out ALL life, not just advanced life no?

Lets say for example, on Earth, the tipping point for us to become an "advanced" civilization would be the development of the microchip. 1961 was when you could buy one (for a couple bazillion dollars). The population at this time was around 3.1 billion.
Now, if they just killed every human around say, 1800, there would only be around 1 billion dead, One third the number. Less time taken, less people killed, less resistance due to lack of technology. All around more efficient. If they killed all organic life from the get go there would be a lower number of deaths than if they waste resources killing an enemy that could fight back.

Which brings up a different idea, of why not just split up and have all the reapers sit at each Mass Relay and then just kill every species that finds it's way there. Not advanced enough to put up a fight and rally EVERY OTHER SPECIES, but advanced enough to acquire mass effect technology. Plot holes plot holes... for the "smartest machines evar!" they have some terrible ideas.

 

[PingoBlack]

Omg someone who gets it.
I have had to repeat that point at least 5 times but people still somehow miss it.

We get it SK ... We truly do.

You are so incapable of seing any point made that points at BioWare failing. Yet you should know well and truly that the mess of ME3 ending was most likely caused by BioWare sending main writer of series to their new supposed cash cow, KotOR3withMultiplayer.

I admire your zeal but sadly, you cannot claim people that disagree with you "don't get it". It implies they are to thick to understand your impeccable logic.

They are actually just refusing your super stretched arguments you keep using to cover bad plot holes above mentioned writer change caused. Please try to accept, posting a million posts will not make others see your Light. It only boosts your postcount and makes others think you are what is commonly called a BioDrone, a person that allows no negative comment on their beloved developer, no matter what.

 

[Candidus]

And you are complexity ignoring the fact tat the ONLY reason peace was able to be made between the two races was because of the impending threat of total annihilation by the Reapers.

Wrong.

According to Legion before the Reapers even arrived (in ME2), peace was never out of the question as far as the Geth were concerned. The simple fact was that the Quarians attacked the Geth whenever they had an advantage 100% of the time.

As for the topic, do I agree with synthetics being made to kill organics every 50,000 years so that organics won't be killed by synthetics? No. No I don't.

 

[Alexnader]

Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)

snip

That's assuming that organic races just stop advancing cybernetics technology forever. At some point, man would become indistinguishable from the machine, so the whole Organics vs. synthetics argument is fucking dumb right out of the gate.

Criminy, how can people still be struggling with these concepts? Has NO ONE played Deus Ex? That scenario was more plausible than anything in Mass Effect.

I completely agree with you. Catalyst's view that synthetic life is somehow inimical to organic life was obviously flawed. While there are differences, both sides were already demonstrating progression towards a natural "synthesis" without the need for any crucible imposed genetic changes. On the synthetic side of things EDI learned to love among a whole host of other things and the Geth became more "alive" thanks to the Reaper code. On the organic side, Shepard himself was partially synthetic and Miranda was an example of artificial organic life.

Overall I think if left to itself, life in the Mass Effect universe would approach some kind of post-physical status where concepts like "synthetic" and "organic" were meaningless. I mean who gives a shit what kind of "platform" the life is running around on when it's possible life might do away with platforms like bodies altogether.

 

[Unsilenced]

The only way it even comes close to making sense is if the synthetics that are organics are doomed to make are somehow even *more* omnicidal than the reapers. Otherwise it's just a 12-guage flu shot scenario. Killing everything will prevent everything from being killed by something else, but there's not much of a point to that.

A far more logical solution is to have your reaper come in and help the organics before self-destructing. All synthetics dead, cycle broken, organics stop making sentient machines.


EDIT: An even more logical solution: Invade with the reapers and exterminate or enslave all of the organics. Then, rather than ditch the galaxy and let new organics crop up, just form a society of synthetics. Said society will be easily able to crush any new organic civilization they find, and synthetics have no reason to intentionally produce enough organics to pose a threat. Cycle is broken, no more mass killings (other than the first one, of course.)

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Especially when its shown Synthetics and Organics can co exist (Geth and Quarians)

That "counter argument" probably annoys me more than anything else that's been mentioned.

It's completely missing the point. Yes, the Geth and Quarians made up, but for what, a week, maybe a month before the final battle rolls around? The Reaper logic is based on inevitably, not any single event or timespan. Sure, the Geth are alright now, but what about a thousand years from now? A million?

Hell, even if the Geth stayed friendly indefinitely, it's not about the Geth. The point is that it will and does happen, over and over again by different races, in different places, at different times. The fact that some of those AIs may turn out just fine makes no difference to the goals of the Reapers, those goals are based on the belief that it only needs to go badly once. One AI rebellion where the AIs get the upperhand and that's it, game over.

And that's just on the hostile front, even if an AI empire like the Geth stayed generally peaceful, machines aren't usually prone to the same sort of eventual self destruction as organic civilizations, and what you're left with is never ending expansion. With an ever growing never resting AI empire in the galaxy, how long until the organic races turn on them anyways simply out of fear or need of resources, forcing the issue?

Anyways...Point being, the Geth and Quarians getting along in no way refutes the reasoning behind the Reapers process, singular events do not change anything when the time frame in question is millions or billions of years.

We dont know how many Organics have reached peace with Synthetics though, for all we know it could be a fairly common occurence, the Reapers are just too blinded by what they believe is right to give peace a chance