ME3 End: Do you agree with the Reapers?

[The_Blue_Rider]

Human history is a litany of pointless and illogical bloodshed. We cant stop killing each other for one day, let alone not do it to OTHER RACES. Not expecting us to start a war with synthetics eventually is illogical and the past does not support it.
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Beyond that The Counsel was actually quite afraid of a possible Geth attack, the Geth were suspected to have the single largest fleet in the galaxy.

To say they were "fringe" and that no one really card goes against MANY things stated throughout the series.

Spoiler

You're working on the assumption that humanity will always be like that though and that every organic race would be like us, you forget that everyday there are millions of people trying to make life better for someone else.
Given enough time im sure an organic race could resolve its problems, and lead the galaxy into a better future than the Reapers ever could

 

[spartandude]

So the reapers want to stop synthetic life from killing all organic life, by destroying all advanced organic life (the ones who can oppose synthetic life). and in doing so the reapers massively upgraded synthetic life (the geth) to stop the likes from them killing everything?

well no i dont agree with the catalyst/ reapers. not only is it bonkers but can be proven wrong, the geth quarian war can be ended in peace. and EDI and Joker can fall in love with eachother! or how about the fact that the geth were only hostile when attacked or under reaper control. and that life (plants and maybe animals, i dunno we didnt really see) still existed on the geth home world

it also begs the question of what makes organic life better than synthetic life?
there is nothing to stop an organic life form from destroying all other life to render it self supreme (cough daleks). so why is it so much worse when a fully sentient robot does it?


also what ever happened to

"Organic life is nothing but a genetic mutation, and accident."

"you cannot even grasp the nature of our existence."

"We have no beginning, we have no end, we are infinite."

 

[Grivahri]

No it makes no sense whatsoever. Synthetics can think for themselves, there is no reason for them to rebel. I thought that the whole reason for the geth consensus mission was to understand that the geth never wanted war with the quarians. Even after they were attacked they didn't want to kill the quarians. EDI is another example on why synthetics would not be hostile towards organics. There is also a strict ban in creating AI. So when you reach that point in the game there is nothing in the game or universe to support that synthetics would automatically be hostile towards organics.

But lets assume that synthetics are bloodthirsty vengeful killers like godkid says. Why would the reapers kill organics and not just synthetics. They could wipe out synthetics and warn the galaxy from ever making them again.

 

[winginson]

I think its kinda a good idea as long as it was the only solution. Which I'm sure it wasn't.

Like create technology that stops synthetics from working or stop later races from realising eezo can be used to create them.

Also I think a full AI would be nicer than most humans, as it would lack the whole "get power and be dicks to eachother to get the best mate" drive that we do.

 

[The_Blue_Rider]

Oh look, a Mass Effect 3 thread where SajuukKhar's post make up for the third of all posts. Cool.

Hey everyone, remember that Zeel guy everybody keeps talking about? Why isn't it SajuukKhar already?

Because SajuukKhar doesnt insult everyone who disagrees with him?

 

[Major_Tom]

No because it makes no sense. In this cycle we (organics) crated Geth (synthetics), now we all know they are fine but let's say they actually want to kill all organics like the Reapers claim. So now Reapers come, wipe out... no wait, "preserve" Humans, Asari, Turians, Krogan etc. and leave, I don't know, Yagh or Vorcha or whatever. Then the Reapers leave and the Evil Geth kill everyone else. Nice job, Reapers.
If you want the Reapers to be good guys, let them be trying to save the galaxy from Dark Energy or something... oh, wait.

 

[Amaror]

Um, no.

Because the "solution" is the most ridiculous idea ever. While it sort of make sense to get rid of advanced lifeforms to protect lower forms of life from being destroyed by the synthetics that the higher forms of life made, just looking at the Geth/Quarian peace situation completely blows the God Child's theory that synthetics will always destroy organics out of the water.

And you are complexity ignoring the fact tat the ONLY reason peace was able to be made between the two races was because of the impending threat of total annihilation by the Reapers.

Had there been no reapers there would have been no sovereign, no Saren going rouge, no Geth attack on Eden prime, no Shepard doing ANYTHING in ME1, no Legion being built to find Shepard, no Shep finding Legion, no bringing together of the two races.

Had the Reapers not shown up the Geth would have remained as they were, behind the Perseus veil suffering from on again off again attacked by vengeful Quarrian's and other organics hateful of AI which very likely could have led to an AI/Organic war, despite the Geth's want for peace.

Do not try to take actions that only resulted because of the existence of the Reapers as proof of what things would be like without them.

It is terribly flawed logic.

Secondly because pace was made does not guarantee that it would last, the prospect for an AI/Organic war are just as likely after peace was made as they were before peace was made.

Nor does the fact peace was made with the Geth mean future synthetic races relationships would turn out the same

Legion wasn't build to find Shepard.
Legion was the one Geth, who fought back against the Quarians, when they wanted to kill all geth.
Or am i missing something?
And btw: The Geht NEVER wanted to kill all quarians, which makes the theory of the godchild wrong nontheless.

 

[Vivi22]

I never stated they could never make peace, only that things would continue as they were which was down a path that leads opposite of that.

Also peace is only temporary, even IF Shepard made peace with the Geth in a Reaper-less universe the simple fact of the matter is that it could not last.

Eventually the Geth, or some other Synthetic race, would wage war on organics.

Wow, that's a whole lot of groundless speculation about something no one will ever have an answer to.

The point that you're missing here is that even if the peace was instigated by the Reapers actions in a long term, unintended consequences sort of manner, and even if the peace didn't last, the simple fact that it happened at all showed it was possible. The mere existence of that possibility is the killing blow to some bad guy logic that was on shaky ground to begin with as far as logic goes. So what if eventually the peace failed and AI's destroyed organic life? Organic life is usually pretty effective at destroying organic life, and frankly, would probably destroy each other eventually if left to their own devices as well. So what? The fact that a race or races may one day seal their own doom and the doom of all life in the galaxy means they shouldn't be allowed the chance to grow and survive on their own? On the time scale of the universe everything is dead eventually anyway, so it makes no sense for machines to really give a shit frankly.

Let's face it, even if the Reapers logic made the slightest bit of sense, it'd still be incredibly stupid.

 

[Erttheking]

Hm let me think about that for a-NO!

 

[Vrex360]

EDIT:
Whoops, wrong thread.


Anyway since I'm here, NO.
Damn it to hell that ending flies in the face of almost every central theme of Mass Effect. Things like free will, coming together and learning about our differences and that AI is not inherently evil become dissolved in the final moments and it really bothers me that Shepard can't challenge the Catalyst at all for the idiocy of it all.

 

[Madbomber]

i got a semi random but topic related thing to say,

Evolution is advanced by stress, neccesity and violence it fuels evolution as much as we wish it didnt look at WW2 the nuke came of that as did the jet engine from the V2 rockets

so maybe they fancy themselves of a kind of slide collector if you will (after all they mince up the race and make a reaper out of them btw anyone find arnie odd from ME2 since all other reapers - harbringer look the same) BUT there is a certain ending involving a synthetic/organic merger, i believe the reapers were wanting that choice taken as each time they wipe out all life the next wave find the crucible plan, as well as older tech and they advance upon it. likewise the organic side also advance look at the turians they evolved stonelike scale plates on their body to reflect sunlight, volus adapted to high gravity so they selectively harvest one race that shows greater progress/potential and possibly seed that possibility in a new young race
something also tells me that if the reapers came across a info seed just like Liaras plan they wouldnt destroy them, they didnt destroy the beacons

i may be prattling on but the more people doing serious dissertations means we have more to think on

also id like to state to anyone that doesnt know it that the original lead writer for ME1+2 quit just after the seconds completion so the writer for ME3 had no notes or anything from previous so he just ran with it Haestrom was meant to have some big plot for the reapers some suspected it was a giant reaper inside the sun others suspected they were harvesting dark energy and more again that haestrom was a gate much like the citadel

if you took the time reaper thanks hope i make sence if not sorry for boring ya

 

[BloatedGuppy]

snip

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. You've stated that it wouldn't be reasonable/possible for the Reapers to keep a lid on aggressive synthetic life due to the ever shorter timespan in which said synthetic life could potentially be created. However, I'm not sure why there was a rule that the Reapers had to sit in dark space for 50,000 years. Why couldn't they just hang around, nagging us about synthetics and putting a quick stop to any really unfortunate ones? I think tens of thousands of years of stewardship by godlike machines who persistently warn us about the devilry of synthetic life might be more compelling than you think. I must also say, this argument that "humans never learn from the mistakes of history" is anthropological gobbledygook and there is zero evidence to support that it is true. It's the kind of highly emotional, logically absurd statement an ORGANIC would make.

2. I don't understand Reaper logic regarding the singularity in which synthetic life wipes out all organic life as an inevitability, because it has never happened. There has been zero incidences of this happening, ever. Why would a purely logical machine that functions on observations/facts start leaping to conclusions? They're the most advanced synthetic in the galaxy, and they seem rather pro organic...in their way. Why couldn't the singularity just lead to another batch of pro-organic synthetics? The Geth and EDI already show promise, regardless of the small sample size regarding their existence. If anything the behavior of the Reapers seems highly alarmist.

3. Why wouldn't Harbinger/Sovereign explain all of this? Why be mysterious and threatening? Why claim their motivations are beyond understanding? The Catalyst Kid goes on to explain their motivations in about 2 minutes of conversation, and Shepard says "Oh alright then" and starts flipping switches. Clearly this was meant to be a profoundly convincing argument, easily delivered and easily understood and accepted.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

 

[Nimcha]

Well no, in the end I don't agree with the Reapers. Which is the main reason I chose to destroy them.

The Catalyst pretty much literally says the Reapers are wrong in the end anyway. That's the reason he lets you (or Shepard) make the final choice.

 

[Nimcha]

snip

I have a couple of questions for you.

1. You've stated that it wouldn't be reasonable/possible for the Reapers to keep a lid on aggressive synthetic life due to the ever shorter timespan in which said synthetic life could potentially be created. However, I'm not sure why there was a rule that the Reapers had to sit in dark space for 50,000 years. Why couldn't they just hang around, nagging us about synthetics and putting a quick stop to any really unfortunate ones? I think tens of thousands of years of stewardship by godlike machines who persistently warn us about the devilry of synthetic life might be more compelling than you think. I must also say, this argument that "humans never learn from the mistakes of history" is anthropological gobbledygook and there is zero evidence to support that it is true. It's the kind of highly emotional, logically absurd statement an ORGANIC would make.

2. I don't understand Reaper logic regarding the singularity in which synthetic life wipes out all organic life as an inevitability, because it has never happened. There has been zero incidences of this happening, ever. Why would a purely logical machine that functions on observations/facts start leaping to conclusions? They're the most advanced synthetic in the galaxy, and they seem rather pro organic...in their way. Why couldn't the singularity just lead to another batch of pro-organic synthetics? The Geth and EDI already show promise, regardless of the small sample size regarding their existence. If anything the behavior of the Reapers seems highly alarmist.

3. Why wouldn't Harbinger/Sovereign explain all of this? Why be mysterious and threatening? Why claim their motivations are beyond understanding? The Catalyst Kid goes on to explain their motivations in about 2 minutes of conversation, and Shepard says "Oh alright then" and starts flipping switches. Clearly this was meant to be a profoundly convincing argument, easily delivered and easily understood and accepted.

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

All of your questions are easily answerable and have been answered multiple times, but because the last one is easiest to explain I'll do that one:

The synthesis option isn't always available. It only comes with enough war assets and the Crucible.

 

[lapan]

Well if

A leads to An, An leads to B, B leads to Bn, and Bn leads to 0A

With
A=organics
An=many organics
B=Synthetics
Bn=many synthetics
0A= no organics

Then the most logical response would be to destroy A to prevent B from happening.

Also while they could just destroy B the fact that A remains as it, i.e. at the point that they could make AI, was means the next occurrence of B would be significantly more soon then had they just destroyed A, which would cause a drastic increase in resources needed to fuel what would become an eternal continuous slaughter of B.

It is an exceedingly cold train of though, but a logical one in its reasoning.

If it really was an unchangeable fact that AIs would betray their creators, why trust an race of AIs to do the right thing? Why trust the Catalyst at all? Where is the logic in destroying something to protect it? Why should Shepard give a shit about future organics in stead of entire races now, at the word of an AI he never met before and outright tells him it's impossible to trust AIs?

 

[Casual Shinji]

What the game actually presented us as the Reapers' motivation was so lackluster and flat, that I don't even deem it worthy of discussing whether or not I agreed with it. It was fucking stupid, and it never should've been there in the first place.

 

[Kopikatsu]

So everyone keeps bringing up the Geth in their arguments of 'BUT SEE ORGANICS AND SYNTHETICS CAN BE FRIENDS!'

Nobody ever said that the Geth were the problem. Nobody. Not a single person.

Now look back to ME1 and ME2 at AI. What happened EVERY SINGLE time someone developed an AI? It went crazy and tried to kill everyone. EDI did it, it happened with Project Overlord, etc etc. But people just kept building bigger, stronger AI because they're pants-on-head retarded.

It would have gotten to the point where someone made an AI that had the power to kill everything; and it probably would have. That's what the Reapers were trying to prevent.

Edit: Before anyone points out that EDI doesn't want to kill all humans anymore, she's an anomaly. AI were banned in the first place because they couldn't stop killing people.

 

[Binks]

4. If the option to perform space magic and turn everyone into a synthetic/organic hybrid was there from the outset, why on earth mess around with the cycle/harvesting? Why not just do your space magic? Problem solved, with 100% less murder and effort.

All of your questions are easily answerable and have been answered multiple times, but because the last one is easiest to explain I'll do that one:

The synthesis option isn't always available. It only comes with enough war assets and the Crucible.

I think you're missing the point, which I think is a really good one.
If all you have to do to end the cycle is build the crucible, throw an organic in there, and then have synthetics and organics united in beautiful harmony, why didn't the Reapers do that in the very beginning to save all this fuss of eradicating advanced organics every 50,000 years?