ME3 - You can't debate Star Child because you have a valid logical point.

[Paragon Fury]

So while I was thinking about the ME3 ending last night, I was wondering why the **** you can't debate the Starchild at all; and that is when I realized its because any debate with the Starchild with end with you winning; unless the Starchild was able to produce evidence that what he is describing actually occurred outside of his own Reaper interference, he has no logical ground to stand on.

Even if he did produce such evidence, it will merely lead to logical deadlock - both of you can claim logically sound and valid points, which in actually means the Starchild is still wrong because a non-zero possibility of his being wrong still exists.

"What the hell are you talking about?!" is what you're probably asking right now. Well, get ready to math.

In reduced logical terms, this is what the Starchild states:

If organics Create synthetics, then synthetics will always Destroy organics.

In logic form, this would look like C>D. What he is implying through his argument is C>D, C*D (synthetics created and destroyed organics), so C>D. So it would be:

C>D / C*D // C>D

The truth table (remember these from high school?) would be:

C>D / C*D // C>D
T T T T F T T T T
T F F T F F T F F
F T T F T T F T T
F T F F F F F T F

Conclusion: Valid argument.

However, it hinges completely on the idea the D (synthetics destroy organics) is true - something for which there is no evidence of, anywhere, making it an untrue argument. He is in essence making two conclusions in one statement. Since there is only evidence against D, Shepard could make the counter argument:

C>D / C*~D // C>~D
T T T T F F T T F F T
T F F T T T F T T T F
F T T F F F T F T F T
F T F F F T F F T T F

In English, "If organics create synthetics, then synthetics will always destroy organics / Synthetics created but did not destroy organics // Therefore if organics create synthetics, synthetics will not always destroy organics."

Conclusion: Valid, true argument.


Shepard could also make the opposite argument of Starchild, C>~D / C*~D // C>~D, which is still logically valid (and true).

In essence, you're not allowed to debate Starchild because Starchild is patently wrong (at the very best) or in a deadlock with with Shepard (at the very worst), meaning if you debate him you destroy the whole ending right there.


TL;DR - Poorly thought out ending is poorly thought out, and Starchild can go pucker himself with some good old fashioned logic.

NOTE: Reposted from my topic on the BSN.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I was hoping for a Renegade Interrupt where Shepard says "I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions." and punches the Star Child out.

 

[Vanitas likes Bubbles]

Yeah...... I need to pay more attention in maths.

 

[RedEyesBlackGamer]

I was hoping for a Renegade Interrupt where Shepard says "I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions." and punches the Star Child out.

I still wonder why they decided to make it a child, of all things.

I mean, come on. Children piss me off in day to day life, I dont need another little shit ruining my day.

Starchild, get fucked with a rake.

I think it was supposed to be...deep? Taking the form of the boy that I had no emotional attachment to at all throughout the game.

 

[Terminate421]

A. Censor your title
B. it was all a dream
C. We all hate the star child

 

[I-Protest-I]

Is that actual maths on how Mass Effect ended? You need to take a step back, think about what you're devoting time on and re-evaluate lad.

 

[mad825]

The problem with maths is that it can reflect poorly in real life. The game itself presented no evidence in the story and in fact shows that there will be some megalomaniacs who would think this.

Hence the Reapers. A self-fulling prophecy.

 

[Rawne1980]

They could solve the debate with sparkle boy quite easily.

Make him corporeal so I can shoot him in the face .... I win, end of debate, end of Reapers and Liara can Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast!

 

[Therumancer]

Well if you read the interviews from the $3 app it was mentioned that they had considered a more normal conversation, and letting the player ask questions to get the promised answers, but then decided it would be "better" to not give the player the answers. Doubtlessly because they less they reveal now is more than could use for futher games down the road without having to create anything new.

The entire sequence happens the way it does because it's a crappy ending that doesn't fit with the spirit of the game. Bioware admitted that the ending was designed to generate contreversy and spark debate and discussion... which happened, but not the way they wanted.

There really isn't much more that can be said about it that hasn't already been said, Bioware pretty much put a giant foot in it's mouth, which is why it was a big deal when Chris Priestly stood by the validity of the interviews from that app.

 

[SajuukKhar]

I was hoping for a Renegade Interrupt where Shepard says "I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions." and punches the Star Child out.

I still wonder why they decided to make it a child, of all things.

I mean, come on. Children piss me off in day to day life, I dont need another little shit ruining my day.

Starchild, get fucked with a rake.

It really shouldn't have been a kid

I always imagined some dude in white robes, glowing, with his head held up slightly in a totally smug manner looking down at the wounded Shepard with an expression like Shepard was so insignificant that he wasn't even worth his time, and hundreds if not thousands of holographic screens in the background showing synthetics totally destroying organic civilizations across time.

Make his eyes look uber weird also, like it is starting into your soul, that would make him look badass, and all the screens in the background would give some credence to his motives.

 

[VincentX3]

Yea...
I still don't get it math or no math.

 

[The Pinray]

I didn't think people like OP really existed. I always thought it was some crazy bedtime story to keep kids off the internet.

Here, I'll simplify without the unnecessary and ridiculous math: The Star Child is talking out of his ass and Shepard can't call him out on it because it would potentially screw up the ending.

I had that figured out since the credits started rolling. Still, if this is how you like to spend your free time then by all means.

captcha: "Hot-n-ready pizza" That actually does sound good right about now... I think I'll call Pizza Hut. Not Little Caesars, that place sucks!

 

[Zen Toombs]

I was hoping for a Renegade Interrupt where Shepard says "I'm tired of your disingenuous assertions." and punches the Star Child out.

THIS.

THIS IS ALL YOU NEED TO FIX EVERYTHING.

Seriously, all that stuff about closure, about wanting the ending to make sense.... I could work with it if there was only that option. I would buy the PC version if someone made a mod that allowed a person to do that.

In all seriousnees, it wouldn't fix everything. But it would definitly help with the healing process.

 

[Innegativeion]

Bioware wouldn't let you argue with him (it), because they knew it would prompt a much better ending that would need more content, thus falling outside EA's schedule parameters... or something.

Case in Point:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6e9nokg1NQ&t=1m28s

 

[Dwarfman]

Snip

And all I can say is thank God I did Maths C & B back in high school, cause I sought of understand what you're saying!

And kudos to you too. You successfully negotiated the flawed logic of the machines using their language - mathematics. It's just a pity Bioware didn't give us the option to do that although with all the talk of 'the calculus of war' among characters you would have thought someone would have made it an option.

 

[Kingjackl]

What's the point of 'debating' the Star Child? Doesn't he flat out admit he was wrong when you first meet him anyway. That's why he gives you the choice at the end: he realises that, simply by uniting the galaxy, building the Crucible and organising this massive resistance against the Reapers, you've already proven him wrong about organics anyway.

Don't get me wrong, he's still irritating and I was happy to waste a few bullets on him before making my choice, but there's never any real need to 'debate' him in the game, as far as I can see.

 

[Lionsfan]

I spent like 10 minutes just trying to shoot that little twat