"Medicine" in America

[chikusho]

Money is transient and only worth what you can get with it. Freedom and health are both genuinely valuable, and many would argue, essential.

And many would argue, human rights.

Even so, fun fact: in the US you will be treated regardless of your ability to pay, and there is a source of free insurance that is actually pretty adequate (I was on it myself): Medicaid, or in Arizona, AHCCCS. All you have to do is sign up. None go without that aren't fooled into thinking they aren't allowed to ask unless they have deep pockets.

Granted, I don't know a lot about medicaid, but saying that "all you have to do is sign up" is a blatant overstatement. If this program was even close to adequate there wouldn't be 50 million people without any kind of coverage.
This without getting into how private insurance companies do their darndest to screw their paying customers out of coverage they need.

Man, I get sick of people bashing others' country, party, religion, school,favorite color, what have you. Not because of legitimate gripes or disagreements, but because they believe as a "fact" nasty rumors and political propaganda, and don't bother to find out the other side. But hey, this is the internet. Everyone's a dick here, including me. I just wish someone would ask, "hey, X, is it true what Y says about Z?" It's not hard, and it would go a long way.

Hospitals artificially inflating the prices of medicine and care many times over, and adding fees and charges that are meaningless excuses to get more money, isn't a crazy rumor, but a documented fact. These are not fringe cases, but standard business practices for most health care in the US. The hospitals even admit to it themselves. You should take a look at this report: http://livingwithmcl.com/BitterPill.pdf

Good health insurance covers all that, so I'm not seeing your point.

Alright, so what about the people with bad health insurance? Or no health insurance? Or the lack of coverage in a specific plan? Or being screwed out of coverage due to technicalities or loopholes?

 

[Greg White]

Good health insurance covers all that, so I'm not seeing your point.

Alright, so what about the people with bad health insurance? Or no health insurance? Or the lack of coverage in a specific plan? Or being screwed out of coverage due to technicalities or loopholes?

For those with bad insurance, I'd suggest looking at your finances. Major medical isn't that much, but prioritizing your finances isn't a skill all people have.

For those without insurance, there are already programs in place for that, namely Medicare and Medicaid.

Loopholes are one of the downsides to cheaper insurance rates, so see the first point.

Being screwed out of coverage altogether...never heard of that outside of people who were already horribly ill.

 

[evilneko]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Wait. I thought you were a Republican, Libertarian, or other-American-right-winger.

 

[chikusho]

Good health insurance covers all that, so I'm not seeing your point.

Alright, so what about the people with bad health insurance? Or no health insurance? Or the lack of coverage in a specific plan? Or being screwed out of coverage due to technicalities or loopholes?

For those with bad insurance, I'd suggest looking at your finances. Major medical isn't that much, but prioritizing your finances isn't a skill all people have.

For those without insurance, there are already programs in place for that, namely Medicare and Medicaid.

Loopholes are one of the downsides to cheaper insurance rates, so see the first point.

Being screwed out of coverage altogether...never heard of that outside of people who were already horribly ill.

So, what you're saying is that only people with financial skill deserves care? Interesting..

First, let's disregard the fact that about a fifth of the US population can't get care due to the bloated prices of treatment and medicine. Second, let's consider that what you are saying is correct; there are enough alternatives and programs for everyone in the great US of A to get all the care they need at affordable prices.
In what way would universal health care be any different?
If everyone can get the high quality care they need today, the lines and waiting periods would be equal to if everyone was covered, right?

 

[Greg White]

So, what you're saying is that only people with financial skill deserves care? Interesting..

First, let's disregard the fact that about a fifth of the US population can't get care due to the bloated prices of treatment and medicine. Second, let's consider that what you are saying is correct; there are enough alternatives and programs for everyone in the great US of A to get all the care they need at affordable prices.
In what way would universal health care be any different?
If everyone can get the high quality care they need today, the lines and waiting periods would be equal to if everyone was covered, right?

Poorly veiled strawman aside, the US's method is to give alternatives to those who can't afford basic health care.

On another note, no, you honestly aren't entitled to the 'latest and greatest breakthrough medical miracle' if either you or your backer(typically your insurance company or a charity) can't pay for it, and as long as medical research is still privately funded and medical degrees cost enough to take 20 years to pay off, none of that is going to change.

So, given the choice of letting everyone have the same, mediocre coverage and letting some have better than others, I'll take the later.

Hell, even people who have universal health care(Canada) come to the US for anything more serious than an annual checkup because the quality is better for those who can afford it.

 

[Vegosiux]

Poorly veiled strawman aside, the US's method is to give alternatives to those who can't afford basic health care.

I don't understand. "Basic healthcare" is what I consider should be the lowest possible alternative, one that everyone is covered by. That's what "basic" is supposed to mean.

On another note, no, you honestly aren't entitled to the 'latest and greatest breakthrough medical miracle' if either you or your backer(typically your insurance company or a charity) can't pay for it

Strawman, chichkusho never claimed anything like it.

and as long as medical research is still privately funded and medical degrees cost enough to take 20 years to pay off, none of that is going to change.

[citation needed]

Both on medical research being "privately funded" and "things not going to change".

So, given the choice of letting everyone have the same, mediocre coverage and letting some have better than others, I'll take the later.

No, you're going to take whichever option suits you better, just like any other rational human being would - after all, it's rational to pick the option that has the lowest cost/benefit ratio.

Hell, even people who have universal health care(Canada) come to the US for anything more serious than an annual checkup because the quality is better for those who can afford it.

[citation needed]

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

Wait. I thought you were a Republican, Libertarian, or other-American-right-winger.

I'm a capitalist with respects to everything with the exception on Healthcare and Education. Capitalism runs off choice, and there is no choice in health care and education, you need those things and therefore cant refuse the high price. I think people who provide every other service should be left well enough alone because the hand of the free market will slap down bad business in those areas. Healthcare and Education, due to their necessity, are immune to the hand of the free market. They need an iron fist to crush them.

 

[Vegosiux]

An ambulance is not a fucking taxi and healthcare is not a money making enterprise. If you lived in a civilised country your healthcare would be paid for in taxes and government funding

"civilised"

http://imgur.com/isgYik4

It's funny how this meme is used to make fun of a claim. Seeing as how in the movie, Dr. Evil basically used air-quotes simply to draw attention to the names he thought up for his contraptions - he never used them ironically (the movie was a parody, of course, but as a character, Dr. Evil used them merely to emphasize the name).

If you want an ironic air-quote scene, use "Ah yes, 'Reapers'" instead.

 

[chikusho]

Poorly veiled strawman aside, the US's method is to give alternatives to those who can't afford basic health care.

On another note, no, you honestly aren't entitled to the 'latest and greatest breakthrough medical miracle' if either you or your backer(typically your insurance company or a charity) can't pay for it, and as long as medical research is still privately funded and medical degrees cost enough to take 20 years to pay off, none of that is going to change.

..

So, given the choice of letting everyone have the same, mediocre coverage and letting some have better than others, I'll take the later.

And why are you assuming universal healthcare is mediocre?
Or that US Healthcare is better than healthcare in other first world countries?
In fact, the US stack up rather shittily to other countries in multiple areas, and has among the highest rate of deaths from
conditions that could have been prevented or treated successfully.
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/Publications/In-the-Literature/2008/Jan/Measuring-the-Health-of-Nations--Updating-an-Earlier-Analysis.aspx

 

[Eggsnham]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't insurance companies a lack of a health care system. The problem is that those guys in the Ambulance, the doctors that treated you, and the hospital administrators, are all a bunch of greedy assholes. If the government wants to help us it should bring the hammer down on all the doctors and Ambulance drivers. Force them to do their job for a set price or go out of business.

1. Sure, the bills don't go away, they're just distributed to be paid among the masses. This is a sort "for better or worse" scenario, but generally speaking, I'd say that it's for the better. I'd rather pay higher taxes and receive healthcare that I desperately need than wait until I'm barely alive because of the fear of impending financial burden and pay out the ass for lifesaving treatment that I should have gotten years ago.

2. Insurance companies are businesses; designed to make profit. You're sorely mistake if you think they're there to do anything other than make a profit off of your health.

3. People in the healthcare industry are greedy, yes, just as all human beings are. That said, medicine and medical supplies cost money. Not to mention the fact that nobody would spend the time and money learning to become doctors if all they were paid was a pittance for their hard work. Anybody can become a manual laborer; there is literally no need for an education if you're going to dig ditches. However, if you've spent hundreds of thousands of dollars and 10+ years of your life studying medicine, you're going to want to be paid more than the guy digging ditches.

Not to mention the fact that our taxes largely pay for things such as weapons designed to kill others. If we cut back on the ridiculous funding our ridiculously huge military, we would easily be able to pay for things that, you know, actually benefit mankind.

 

[Dark Knifer]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

 

[Dirty Hipsters]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

I would say that a lot of people in this thread are misrepresenting how the American health care system works.

I grant you that it is largely dependent on what insurance you have, and where you live, that tend to be deciding factors in how much cost you bear, but a lot of the people in this thread make it out like if you don't have health insurance you'll go bankrupt getting a few stitches or having to fix a broken arm, none of which is true.

The thing is, if you don't have health insurance and you feel that you are too poor to be able to afford medical care, that doesn't mean that you're screwed and have absolutely no way of getting the care you need. There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

All in all the biggest problem with health care in the US is the fact that insurance companies can get away with not covering someone with preexisting conditions. This isn't so much a failure of the healthcare system as it is a failure of government regulation. That's all that the US really needs. We don't need a single payer system or universal healthcare, what we need is more government regulation of health insurance companies so that they can't screw people over on loopholes and technicalities.

 

[ten.to.ten]

There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

I live in a single payer country. My last experience dealing with the healthcare system was a couple of months ago when I woke up with a killer ear infection. Without having made an appointment I walked to the clinic a couple of blocks away and within an hour I'd seen the doctor and gotten some antibiotics, the total cost being about $5. In terms of seeing a specialist, the longest I've ever had to wait was a week, and I've always gotten same-day results when I've needed blood tests or x-rays or things like that.

Purely anecotally of course, but my American mother-in-law, back when she did have private isurance, still had to wait months sometimes to see specialists or have elective proceedures done.

I've never understood where Americans get this myth from that universal healthcare means long waiting times and private healthcare means no waiting times.

I wouldn't complain, The United States is doing pretty damn well with healthcare compared to the rest of the third world.

I can't remember what show I stole that joke off.

"America's health care system is second only to Japan... Canada, Sweden, Great Britain... well, all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!" - Homer Simpson

 

[Ryotknife]

There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

I live in a single payer country. My last experience dealing with the healthcare system was a couple of months ago when I woke up with a killer ear infection. Without having made an appointment I walked to the clinic a couple of blocks away and within an hour I'd seen the doctor and gotten some antibiotics, the total cost being about $5. In terms of seeing a specialist, the longest I've ever had to wait was a week, and I've always gotten same-day results when I've needed blood tests or x-rays or things like that.

Purely anecotally of course, but my American mother-in-law, back when she did have private isurance, still had to wait months sometimes to see specialists or have elective proceedures done.

I've never understood where Americans get this myth from that universal healthcare means long waiting times and private healthcare means no waiting times.

I wouldn't complain, The United States is doing pretty damn well with healthcare compared to the rest of the third world.

I can't remember what show I stole that joke off.

"America's health care system is second only to Japan... Canada, Sweden, Great Britain... well, all of Europe. But you can thank your lucky stars we don't live in Paraguay!" - Homer Simpson

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

 

[Dark Knifer]

This was an interesting read. I come from australia so I don't know much about this but it seems that how good the USA's healthcare is depends on the insurance they have. My country has universal healthcare but we still do health insurance and stuff like that for non-emergency stuff.

Whatever works best for the country I suppose, universal care or otherwise.

I would say that a lot of people in this thread are misrepresenting how the American health care system works.

I grant you that it is largely dependent on what insurance you have, and where you live, that tend to be deciding factors in how much cost you bear, but a lot of the people in this thread make it out like if you don't have health insurance you'll go bankrupt getting a few stitches or having to fix a broken arm, none of which is true.

The thing is, if you don't have health insurance and you feel that you are too poor to be able to afford medical care, that doesn't mean that you're screwed and have absolutely no way of getting the care you need. There are free clinics in the US for those who need medical care and cannot afford to pay. These usually aren't ideal, they tend to be understaffed so going to one could mean having to wait to be seen by a doctor for a day or more, but they're free and they are fine if you need treatment that isn't extremely urgent (kind of how healthcare tends to be in countries with universal health care, lots of waiting). If you do need immediate medical attention a hospital legally cannot turn you away, regardless of your ability to pay.

All in all the biggest problem with health care in the US is the fact that insurance companies can get away with not covering someone with preexisting conditions. This isn't so much a failure of the healthcare system as it is a failure of government regulation. That's all that the US really needs. We don't need a single payer system or universal healthcare, what we need is more government regulation of health insurance companies so that they can't screw people over on loopholes and technicalities.

Yeah I wouldn't be too surprised if it was insurance companies fucking it up for people. But system doesn't sound anywhere near as bad as some people have said to me.

Though I'll still probably make jokes about it for fun.

 

[ten.to.ten]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

 

[Ryotknife]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

that's nice...we have little contact with them too. Don't know if you have noticed, but we have a big ass ocean on one side, and a big ass ocean on the other.

As this thread has mentioned, no we can not move towards a universal healthcare without fixing a few hard issues first. Of course, if these pre-req issues were solved so that we could begin to implement UH, chances are we will no longer need to implement UH.

A roundbout way of saying that many of the aspects that gimp our current system will also gimp universal healthcare.

 

[Danial]

cant speak for everyone, but most of the stories I hear about with universal healthcare and long waits comes from our neighbor to the north.

"well, that's not fair! That is only one country"

Yea well, the average American has little to no exposure to people from EU.

First of all, I'm not from the EU either, in fact lots of countries in Asia and the Pacific, like Japan, Singapore, Hong Kong, Taiwan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand have universal healthcare too.

Secondly, it's unwise to pooh-pooh universal healthcare because you're confusing one model in one country with the concept of universal healthcare as a whole. If America doesn't move to a "Medicare for all" system like Australia or Taiwan, it could still achieve universal healthcare through another method, like taking the basic idea of Obamacare and improving it.

that's nice...we have little contact with them too. Don't know if you have noticed, but we have a big ass ocean on one side, and a big ass ocean on the other.

Can't help but notice I'm still talking to you over said 'Big ass ocean', apparently we have some kind of 'interconnected network of information' we can access these days, and i hear the average american has free access to it as well! No idea what it's called mind.

Sorry but that point REALLY doesn't stand. 20 years ago it would but these days, no not at all.

 

[Vault Citizen]

This is the problem with universal health care. Those bills you mentioned don't go away. You don't pay them directly, but they still exist. This is good enough for some because if the sheep don't see the bill then they believe the bill doesn't exist.

So the problem isn't

Yes and no. On he home hand the NHS is paid for with taxes and so people pay for it way. However not all taxes go towards the NHS and every citizen, not just those who pay taxes can use its services without paying directly for them. If by sme tragedy I become completely broke I will still have access to the services offered by the NHS. The same couldn't be said of a system where medicine is a business.

 

[Godhead]

This thread makes me very sad face. What part of free market equals competition equals reduction in price has been forgotten?

It's called price fixing. It's when two or more businesses agree to set the prices for competing products.

OT: I don't think it's as simple as just cutting military funds in America.