Men and Sex/Conquests

[Shamanic Rhythm]

4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.

You probably didn't come here looking for advice, but I'm giving it anyway because poking fun at you isn't really going to do anything to reduce the proportions of the nerds vs females shitstorm. I'd rather be constructive for once.

Don't try and pretend that you've accepted such an obvious state of unhappiness by coming up with bro-science theories on internet forums to absolve yourself of any responsibility and wallow in the belief that it's all society/your brain's fault. Desirability is something you can control. Find things to do that boost your self-esteem, preferably something physical like a team sport or parkour or even going on a Pokemon Go walk. Meet as many new people as you can and make friends with them - when you're around these groups you'll be able to feel more confident. Eventually, you'll meet someone, and straight away you'll have something in common, and a group of friends who will put in a good word for you or back you to go for it. Build confidence from other people. Make some good lady friends who will give you the download on how to impress that one girl whenever she comes along.

I'm offering all this advice because I know the feeling. I once used to carry on about how no one would ever want me. Boy was I wrong.

 

[Gengisgame]

Most feminist critiques of these behaviors do note that men are trained to behave in exactly those ways by society. However, the fact that things are that way doesn't mean that things should be that way. If someone is consciously aware of the previously subconscious biases that have been trained into them, it is possible to mitigate them.

I don't think letting feminists work there magic on young boys is one of the boons of modern society.

 

[Fox12]

4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.

You probably didn't come here looking for advice, but I'm giving it anyway because poking fun at you isn't really going to do anything to reduce the proportions of the nerds vs females shitstorm. I'd rather be constructive for once.

Don't try and pretend that you've accepted such an obvious state of unhappiness by coming up with bro-science theories on internet forums to absolve yourself of any responsibility and wallow in the belief that it's all society/your brain's fault. Desirability is something you can control. Find things to do that boost your self-esteem, preferably something physical like a team sport or parkour or even going on a Pokemon Go walk. Meet as many new people as you can and make friends with them - when you're around these groups you'll be able to feel more confident. Eventually, you'll meet someone, and straight away you'll have something in common, and a group of friends who will put in a good word for you or back you to go for it. Build confidence from other people. Make some good lady friends who will give you the download on how to impress that one girl whenever she comes along.

I'm offering all this advice because I know the feeling. I once used to carry on about how no one would ever want me. Boy was I wrong.

I'll second this. I know I got frustrated with you earlier, but you really shouldn't sell yourself short paragon. Just go out and meet some people. Join clubs or groups. Eventually, start hanging out with some women. Don't think about romance. It removes the pressure. Just try and be friends with them. Get comfortable around women. Eventually one of your relationships may naturally grow into something more. You may surprise yourself.

Plenty of people have had crippling anxiety issues at some point in their lives. In high school I was so bad that I got nervous crossing strangers in the street. But, years later, I've got tons of friends and a healthy relationship. You just have to accept yourself for who you are, while also empathizing with other people. It's never "too late" to improve yourself.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Most feminist critiques of these behaviors do note that men are trained to behave in exactly those ways by society. However, the fact that things are that way doesn't mean that things should be that way. If someone is consciously aware of the previously subconscious biases that have been trained into them, it is possible to mitigate them.

I don't think letting feminists work there magic on young boys is one of the boons of modern society.

So, are you saying it's preferable for boys to be taught to view women as sex objects? That is the topic that is under discussion. The reason that I bring up feminism at all is that the implication of the OP seems to be something like "hurr durr, feminists never considered this now did they" when in fact his point about the way culture impacts peoples' behavior is pretty much feminism 101.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note I can't read "there magic" without thinking of the "where wolf? There wolf!" scene from Young Frankenstein.

 

[Something Amyss]

Well, I hadn't planned on posting again, but....

It's essentially a statement that says "I am either socially capable AND/OR socially desirable enough that women are willing to have sex (the most intimate act humans can generally perform) with me."

"Biotruths" aside, think about what you're saying for a moment. Think about how you regard yourself. You don't like this notion that women will never sleep with you because of any number of a host of reasons, usually deriving from your sense of worth based on social perceptions I don't think are particularly true. According to your "anthropologists," most of my friends should have failed. They're socially awkward nerds often with low-paying, low prestige jobs and aren't conventionally attractive.

Most of my friends are married.

But that aside, all you really need to know about objectification is that you don't like it. You don't like this idea that you will be rejected by women because they treat you based on your perceived value, yet you see nothing strange about doing it to women.

This is objectification. Or, at least, what you perceived as objectification. I do not believe it is the case, but maybe the overwhelming majority of my experience is just a fluke. Maybe outside my little sphere, women only like successful and attractive men.

But reality tells me otherwise.

The bottom line is, you think you've been devalued because of your appearance and station in life. one of the basic tents of society and morality is "I don't like this, maybe we shouldn't do it." Humans are a social critter and have developed morality along these lines (being punched hurts, maybe I shouldn't punch people). This actually does have an anthropological basis, on top of which it also happens to make sense.

Instead of defending and rationalising a behaviour that you yourself dislike and seemingly find hurtful...don't. I mean, I don't have any more specific advice. It hurts you, so don't hurt others.

 

[Gengisgame]

Most feminist critiques of these behaviors do note that men are trained to behave in exactly those ways by society. However, the fact that things are that way doesn't mean that things should be that way. If someone is consciously aware of the previously subconscious biases that have been trained into them, it is possible to mitigate them.

I don't think letting feminists work there magic on young boys is one of the boons of modern society.

So, are you saying it's preferable for boys to be taught to view women as sex objects? That is the topic that is under discussion. The reason that I bring up feminism at all is that the implication of the OP seems to be something like "hurr durr, feminists never considered this now did they" when in fact his point about the way culture impacts peoples' behavior is pretty much feminism 101.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note I can't read "there magic" without thinking of the "where wolf? There wolf!" scene from Young Frankenstein.

First off lets remove your negative spin and change sex object to sexual being.


May as well answer your strawmen on whether the feminists considered something. I know they do but the most common and infamous response is the idea of fixing the problems of women before men get a look so fat lot of good that point you made is.

Like so many of the ways men and women interact it's based on our nature which has gone on to influence society, when we first meet someone the most glaring and important aspect we know is there APPEARANCE. From this we can gauge our sexual attraction to them, other than that these women are strangers, outside of other factors there is no reason for me to care about this woman more than I would care about any other MAN.

Now we know feminists want women to have special treatment in this regard, they want us to care more about them because of there gender, this has leaked leaked into the media where they go on about having a problem with 2 dimensional female characters, sometimes characters are just 2 dimensional which includes merely being there to titilate, just because the stripper in GTA is a women doesn't mean that we should be obligated to know what her college degree is.

Irl once we get to know the person we care about them beyond stranger status, until then WOMEN and MEN will use appearance as an important factor in everyday life. In the last 3 years I perform strenous exercise 3-5 times a week amid casual exercise and put effort into personal grooming, there was an obvious impact on how woman I have never interacted before treated me, do I whine about this and believe they should be brainwashed to not care so I can go be a slob? fuck no, that's just life.

 

[2012 Wont Happen]

Most feminist critiques of these behaviors do note that men are trained to behave in exactly those ways by society. However, the fact that things are that way doesn't mean that things should be that way. If someone is consciously aware of the previously subconscious biases that have been trained into them, it is possible to mitigate them.

I don't think letting feminists work there magic on young boys is one of the boons of modern society.

So, are you saying it's preferable for boys to be taught to view women as sex objects? That is the topic that is under discussion. The reason that I bring up feminism at all is that the implication of the OP seems to be something like "hurr durr, feminists never considered this now did they" when in fact his point about the way culture impacts peoples' behavior is pretty much feminism 101.

Also, on a somewhat unrelated note I can't read "there magic" without thinking of the "where wolf? There wolf!" scene from Young Frankenstein.

First off lets remove your negative spin and change sex object to sexual being.


May as well answer your strawmen on whether the feminists considered something. I know they do but the most common and infamous response is the idea of fixing the problems of women before men get a look so fat lot of good that point you made is.

Like so many of the ways men and women interact it's based on our nature which has gone on to influence society, when we first meet someone the most glaring and important aspect we know is there APPEARANCE. From this we can gauge our sexual attraction to them, other than that these women are strangers, outside of other factors there is no reason for me to care about this woman more than I would care about any other MAN.

Now we know feminists want women to have special treatment in this regard, they want us to care more about them because of there gender, this has leaked leaked into the media where they go on about having a problem with 2 dimensional female characters, sometimes characters are just 2 dimensional which includes merely being there to titilate, just because the stripper in GTA is a women doesn't mean that we should be obligated to know what her college degree is.

Irl once we get to know the person we care about them beyond stranger status, until then WOMEN and MEN will use appearance as an important factor in everyday life. In the last 3 years I perform strenous exercise 3-5 times a week amid casual exercise and put effort into personal grooming, there was an obvious impact on how woman I have never interacted before treated me, do I whine about this and believe they should be brainwashed to not care so I can go be a slob? fuck no, that's just life.

I think you misunderstand my point. I'm not saying that people should not consider others' appearance. There's nothing wrong with feeling sexually attracted to somebody who you consider sexually attractive. Nothing is more natural. If somebody's goal is to be as generally sexually attractive as possible, doing what you did and working at it is only sensible. What is wrong is to behave as if your sexual attraction to someone makes it okay to treat that person as merely a means to one's own end of sexual gratification. Teaching boys that women are "conquests" leads to men who are largely incapable of seeing women as anything else but sex objects (and there is a difference between that and "sexual being"), and it contributes to the rampant harassment, and even violence, women have to live with.

Essentially, not only is it possible to view women as sexual beings without viewing them as objects of conquest, but being able to do so is necessary to forming healthy relationships.

 

[Phasmal]

4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.

Step 1 would be to stop talking about women as if we're aliens made out of rubik's cubes. We're people.

You seem very sure of your opinions regarding women despite admittedly not having much contact with them. And you seem to have absorbed some pretty harmful messages about what it means to be a man or even a person in general.

I dunno, dude, a lot of people are willing to take it easy on you because of the things you've shared on this forum. But when you're declaring that maybe treating women as objects is just logical, you come across very poorly.
If I met a guy who speaks about women the way you do, I would avoid him like the plague. Maybe that's the first place to start.

 

[Lacedaemonius]

4: I never said I would take 2D over real; rather I've accepted that I'm so far down on the desirability scale and so...messed up, for lack of better phrasing right now - that any meaningful relationships with women won't occur for me and it's not worth the humiliation, awkwardness and wasting other people's time and making them uncomfortable/unhappy to try.

Step 1 would be to stop talking about women as if we're aliens made out of rubik's cubes. We're people.

You seem very sure of your opinions regarding women despite admittedly not having much contact with them. And you seem to have absorbed some pretty harmful messages about what it means to be a man or even a person in general.

I dunno, dude, a lot of people are willing to take it easy on you because of the things you've shared on this forum. But when you're declaring that maybe treating women as objects is just logical, you come across very poorly.
If I met a guy who speaks about women the way you do, I would avoid him like the plague. Maybe that's the first place to start.

No one, male or female, is going to want anything to do with someone who sees themselves as an unlovable garbage fire. Even worse would be someone who will need constant reassurance that they're not, or that you accept them despite their terrible self-image.

 

[Evil Moo]

No one, male or female, is going to want anything to do with someone who sees themselves as an unlovable garbage fire.

It is a vicious, self-perpetuating cycle.

Have no friends > feel unlovable > inadvertently push people away with poor self-image > feel more unlovable > avoid all social contact as you now know no one wants to deal with someone as miserable as you > feel even worse > repeat forever

 

[lacktheknack]

I've never felt the "women as objects" thing was ever weird - it felt like just a normal extension of the male tendency to treat everything like an object measuring it's value on what it can bring him and how far it can advance him.

Reason Numero Uno I don't try to boil human behavior down to a simple single-cause-single-effect logic string: This is what comes out.

Eugh. And of COURSE it comes from the guy with the infinite stream of perv threads.

 

[sky14kemea]