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Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Imperator_DK said:
So, it's a dark sci-fi fantasy show with Giant Robots, Dragons, and fetishistic lesbian fanservice?

Meh, I can't imagine anyone ever liking that. Particularly not if it's considered controversial.
I'm not sure you are joking or not because the framing of the "fanservice" right after the supposed rape scene makes the whole mood inconsistent and combined with a loathsome main character with no redeeming qualities, the show is horrible.
 

Zakarath

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Shame, since I've been looking rather fruitlessly for a while for some good anime with dragons. Chaika's about as close to that as I've managed to get recently.
 

lord canti

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This is no worse than the scenes in Kill la Kill where Satsuki get's molested by her mother and just like that I fail to see this as fan service.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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lord canti said:
This is no worse than the scenes in Kill la Kill where Satsuki get's molested by her mother and just like that I fail to see this as fan service.
I guess but that felt mercifully shorter than this one and framing before and after the scene doesn't help so I still stand by my opinion
 

lord canti

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Izanagi009 said:
lord canti said:
This is no worse than the scenes in Kill la Kill where Satsuki get's molested by her mother and just like that I fail to see this as fan service.
I guess but that felt mercifully shorter than this one and framing before and after the scene doesn't help so I still stand by my opinion
The ending I'll agree with you, granted so many shows out there have ending themes that usually shatter the tone of the end of the episode. Hunter X Hunter did this plenty of times during the chimera ant arc, granted nothing in that was sexual.
 

Elfgore

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I just realized I had this on my watch list. The concept sounded solid, but it just sounds like shit execution. I won't be watching this unless I hear really good things about it later on.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Elfgore said:
I just realized I had this on my watch list. The concept sounded solid, but it just sounds like shit execution. I won't be watching this unless I hear really good things about it later on.
That is a good idea since i made my reaction piece here [http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.862274-Reaction-to-Cross-Ange-episode-1] and i was not pleased
 

Hochmeister

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SUPA FRANKY said:
That seems reasonable.

Attack on Titan, Eureka Seven, Code Geass, Most of Go Nagai's work should be your speed then.
None of which feature giant robots vs dragons. My irritation is that they've pretty much ruined what could otherwise be a good show with fanservice and rapeyness. Just because there are other mecha shows out there doesn't mean that I can't complain about this one.
 

Gigano

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Izanagi009 said:
Imperator_DK said:
So, it's a dark sci-fi fantasy show with Giant Robots, Dragons, and fetishistic lesbian fanservice?

Meh, I can't imagine anyone ever liking that. Particularly not if it's considered controversial.
I'm not sure you are joking or not because the framing of the "fanservice" right after the supposed rape scene makes the whole mood inconsistent and combined with a loathsome main character with no redeeming qualities, the show is horrible.
Well, since the main character is apparently indeed a loathsome Nazi-esque Princess who've just happily sent an infant to its death, then I imagine watching her suffer won't be all that hard on many viewers. Particularly not once - or if - the other things most people will be there for kick in.

In these type of shows, plot is usually merely a flimsy excuse to hold together a string of set pieces, be they of the Mecha vs. Dragon action or Yuri ecchi variety. Putting something "controversial" in to make the first episode make a splash isn't a bad bet either; these shows are a dime a dozen after all.

So, if one went into it expecting a well thought out plot and nuanced characterization, then it's probably a horrible fit. It's not that kind of show, though, and doesn't seem to make much appearance of being so. So what other qualities - if any - it have would currently seem to be unknown.

We do know it doesn't appeal to people who can't stand to watch even short and fictitious accounts of sexualized violence in any form or context, but that in itself doesn't tell us anything at all about what more liberally minded viewers might think of it. It only helps to narrow down the target demographic.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Imperator_DK said:
Izanagi009 said:
Imperator_DK said:
So, it's a dark sci-fi fantasy show with Giant Robots, Dragons, and fetishistic lesbian fanservice?

Meh, I can't imagine anyone ever liking that. Particularly not if it's considered controversial.
I'm not sure you are joking or not because the framing of the "fanservice" right after the supposed rape scene makes the whole mood inconsistent and combined with a loathsome main character with no redeeming qualities, the show is horrible.
Well, since the main character is apparently indeed a loathsome Nazi-esque Princess who've just happily sent an infant to its death, then I imagine watching her suffer won't be all that hard on many viewers. Particularly not once - or if - the other things most people will be there for kick in.

In these type of shows, plot is usually merely a flimsy excuse to hold together a string of set pieces, be they of the Mecha vs. Dragon action or Yuri ecchi variety. Putting something "controversial" in to make the first episode make a splash isn't a bad bet either; these shows are a dime a dozen after all.

So, if one went into it expecting a well thought out plot and nuanced characterization, then it's probably a horrible fit. It's not that kind of show, though, and doesn't seem to make much appearance of being so. So what other qualities - if any - it have would currently seem to be unknown.

We do know it doesn't appeal to people who can't stand to watch even short and fictitious accounts of sexualized violence in any form or context, but that in itself doesn't tell us anything at all about what more liberally minded viewers might think of it. It only helps to narrow down the target demographic.
I will reiterate that Psycho-Pass has a rape in the first episode but it was kept tasteful with the camera at a distance, and the woman not really posed in fetishistic ways. The writing and animation for the scene make it much easier to swallow to the point that it didn't register with me that much.

This however has the framing on parts of the body and the accompanying clothing that is considered fetishistic and the scene immediately afterwards is very dissonant in tone with the nudity and lesbianism being very tone deaf to the previous scene.

Also, a hateable protagonist usually has something good about them , Walter White is a man who had a fall but was in the beginning a good man. There is no fall here, just instant nazi so all ability to invest in the character is gone.

In addition, this is Sunrise. Gundam remains as a hallmark for writing for many people and even Valvrave had some plot and character before going to hell. I do not see the demographic being people who want lesbians fighting mechs a good excuse for a lack of plot or character.

You may have your attention held after the robots appear but if I have to watch other episodes, I will be going through with a microscope over the plot and characters to see if this thing is worth a damn.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Dreiko said:
Cronenberg1 said:
Dreiko said:
Cronenberg1 said:
Dreiko said:
The point is this isn't the first nor will it be the last. It's just "one more heavy fanservice show". Nothing to go defcon 5 over. There's been multiple actual rape scenes one could masturbate to in multiple great anime. Ever watch Ninja Scroll? Berserk?

Don't make a big deal out of nothing.
A "rape scene you can masturbate to" is never ok. I don't care what medium or genre you're working in. Maybe the rest of the anime is good but that doesn't mean that a sexy rape scene should exist in anything ever.

Here's the thing, the point I'm making isn't "sexy rape scenes are awesome!" but rather "the anime can still be awesome DESPITE having a sexy rape scene".


Stop talking about this scene as though it has the power to single-handedly define an anime as good or bad. That's all. I'm not saying anything more than that.
Ok I can understand that. There are games and movies with questionable content that I like as well. I think that the show should be criticized for having those themes, but I have nothing against people who enjoy it for other reasons. If the show is good but has some flaws then I think that it's worth it to critique those flaws in hopes that other shows don't make the same mistakes.
Any and all critique is meaningless when what prefaces it is "this is horrible and you're horrible if you like this cause it has this scene in it". I hope you can realize that. Whenever someone justifies their opinion with a bulk of reasons why you're a terrible person if you disagree, I instinctively refuse to listen to that noise.

If you FIRST do the overall critique and then as an extra reason for your conclusion use this scene, that's fine. This isn't what people do here. They jump in and call it the worst anime ever made (even compared to ACTUAL hentai) and THEN they proceed to back up their prejudged opinion with flimsy excuse-seeming reasons.

Sorry but this isn't honest critique. It's people who have a grudge trying to justify their grudge and mask it in review format.
If you are referring to my critique, it was more a reaction with me justifying it. Also, if you were referring to me, I would like you to actually quote me

If you are talking about ANN, the format is number first and then review so it can't be helped and they were able to justify it quite well, better than I could. I understand that you don't mind scenes like this but the framing and scene right after it make it for both me and others quite painful; combined with the fact that this is not the first time this happened and I am not holding my breath for this.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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Shingeki no Gingerbeard said:
Have you ever read "Lord of the Flies?" It's a pretty good book; not too long. I was a sophomore in high school, so 15-16 at the time. It's about a bunch of boys from various walks of life who get stranded on a remote island and are forced to survive. The name of the book comes from Beelzebub, the son of Lucifer/Satan, so it's pretty heavy on symbolism.

At one point, around the early 100s, there is a scene where some of the boys have made spears and gone hunting for food. They come across a wild boar, a female, and one of the pages uses only pronouns and no proper nouns. It reads perfectly like a gang rape as the boys surround her and point her with their pointy sticks.

Now I haven't seen an episode of Cross Ange yet, but I'm willing to bet you're too shocked by what you thought was transpiring on the screen to properly grasp the subtext of what the writers and animators were saying.
To respond rather late, the framing around the scene makes it difficult since they focus on ass and panties for too long and the scene right after showing the girls in the suite naked and two of them in a softcore scene makes it very hard for me to call it something other than tasteless
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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inu-kun said:
It sounds like a shitty anime from the get-go, there's no reason to get angry over it, there will be always shitty shows or books with terrible messages or moments, so just ignore it.

It definitely doesn't impact all anime viewers, and doesn't worth wasting time arguing about it.
As an anime viewer and amateur critic, I find it important to inform people of if something will offend them or just be plain horrible.

This is both
 

Tsun Tzu

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Fappy said:
LostGryphon said:
Well...much like the OP, this anime has apparently decided to throw their cards down onto the table hard enough to shatter said table and, in doing so, bisect Earth.

Christ. And I thought Elfen Lied was a kick in the jimmies...but my overall reaction? Meh.

Nothing I haven't seen in anime or, by extension, hentai before and, having experienced Gai-Rei Zero's opening episode, it isn't even the most shocking or affecting that I've viewed.

...That one made it difficult for me to sleep for some reason. Just...her head....and the dead eyes.
That first episode was fucked up as shit! By the time they eventually referenced what happened in it I had totally forgotten about those characters though XD

Also, judging by the rest of the anime and manga that takes place afterwords, that first episode is fun but sorely out of place tonally IMO.
Yus! I still recall that ending scene now and again, usually just as I'm about to fall asleep. I'm really, really not sure why it's stuck with me for so long. The suddenness and graphic shift of tone probably has a lot to do with it.

I would argue that the rest of the show was made better by the gut punch that was the first episode. It got me interested immediately and kept me guessing as to who would live and who would die at the end. I did like how they tied everything together, but would have appreciated more detail...though I suppose that was the point!

The whole, "characters existing with their own narrative arcs that we're going to show glimpses of the beginning and ending to, but not fully explore" thing is an interesting plot device in and of itself.

But yeah, I can handle sexual stuff just fine, male or female, with a bit of the ol' hands over the face and a few chants of "Ugh, why!?" because I can disassociate myself from it sufficiently for it to not be 'threatening' but the really... 'well done' violence just levels me. I can't take it.

Kinda sucks, really. It's kept me away from some good shows.
 

SUPA FRANKY

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Hochmeister said:
SUPA FRANKY said:
That seems reasonable.

Attack on Titan, Eureka Seven, Code Geass, Most of Go Nagai's work should be your speed then.
None of which feature giant robots vs dragons. My irritation is that they've pretty much ruined what could otherwise be a good show with fanservice and rapeyness. Just because there are other mecha shows out there doesn't mean that I can't complain about this one.
Well, they feature giant monsters vs Eobots I guess.

I can't keep you from complaining. Everyone has that right. It's when people start advocating for it to not be watched or want stuff removed I kinda have a problem with.
 

Dreiko_v1legacy

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Izanagi009 said:
Dreiko said:
Cronenberg1 said:
Dreiko said:
Cronenberg1 said:
Dreiko said:
The point is this isn't the first nor will it be the last. It's just "one more heavy fanservice show". Nothing to go defcon 5 over. There's been multiple actual rape scenes one could masturbate to in multiple great anime. Ever watch Ninja Scroll? Berserk?

Don't make a big deal out of nothing.
A "rape scene you can masturbate to" is never ok. I don't care what medium or genre you're working in. Maybe the rest of the anime is good but that doesn't mean that a sexy rape scene should exist in anything ever.

Here's the thing, the point I'm making isn't "sexy rape scenes are awesome!" but rather "the anime can still be awesome DESPITE having a sexy rape scene".


Stop talking about this scene as though it has the power to single-handedly define an anime as good or bad. That's all. I'm not saying anything more than that.
Ok I can understand that. There are games and movies with questionable content that I like as well. I think that the show should be criticized for having those themes, but I have nothing against people who enjoy it for other reasons. If the show is good but has some flaws then I think that it's worth it to critique those flaws in hopes that other shows don't make the same mistakes.
Any and all critique is meaningless when what prefaces it is "this is horrible and you're horrible if you like this cause it has this scene in it". I hope you can realize that. Whenever someone justifies their opinion with a bulk of reasons why you're a terrible person if you disagree, I instinctively refuse to listen to that noise.

If you FIRST do the overall critique and then as an extra reason for your conclusion use this scene, that's fine. This isn't what people do here. They jump in and call it the worst anime ever made (even compared to ACTUAL hentai) and THEN they proceed to back up their prejudged opinion with flimsy excuse-seeming reasons.

Sorry but this isn't honest critique. It's people who have a grudge trying to justify their grudge and mask it in review format.
If you are referring to my critique, it was more a reaction with me justifying it. Also, if you were referring to me, I would like you to actually quote me

If you are talking about ANN, the format is number first and then review so it can't be helped and they were able to justify it quite well, better than I could. I understand that you don't mind scenes like this but the framing and scene right after it make it for both me and others quite painful; combined with the fact that this is not the first time this happened and I am not holding my breath for this.

Referring to someone doesn't mean you have to quote them, you quote the person you're "replying" to.


But yes, I was indeed speaking of the reviews on ANN and that other blog in the OP.


The "format" isn't some natural law or a decree of god. The format is something people CHOOSE to put to use. The format it something people can choose to not follow due to inherent problems about it. It's perfectly valid to chastise a review based on this reason.




I haven't even expressed any personal opinions here. Never did I say I don't mind scenes like that. I've not even seen it. I don't know anything about this show nor do I yet care (I tend to let seasons of shows end and marathon them in a single sitting rather than do one episode a week).


My issue is the principle. No one scene can ever define a show to this extend, not EVER. To act as though it can is blatantly ignorant or sensationalist and I despise such antics deeply.



Izanagi009 said:
inu-kun said:
It sounds like a shitty anime from the get-go, there's no reason to get angry over it, there will be always shitty shows or books with terrible messages or moments, so just ignore it.

It definitely doesn't impact all anime viewers, and doesn't worth wasting time arguing about it.
As an anime viewer and amateur critic, I find it important to inform people of if something will offend them or just be plain horrible.

This is both

No, it's not important to inform people if they'll be offended by something. It really really isn't. Let people be offended. Offending people is a natural occurrence in this bloated ego society, it deserves absolutely no attention whatsoever.


What you're doing here is alarming irrelevant people into a mass of outrage over scenes in an anime they'd never know EXISTS if it were not for your alarm ringing. It's just sensationalism and a way to get attention for yourself. People don't need to know a show they don't know exists and most likely won't watch has tasteless rape in it.
 

VanQ

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Why do you purposefully expose yourself to something you know you aren't going to enjoy? I don't understand this mindset of "I hate it so I must watch it so I can complain about it."
 

Gigano

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Izanagi009 said:
...
I will reiterate that Psycho-Pass has a rape in the first episode but it was kept tasteful with the camera at a distance, and the woman not really posed in fetishistic ways. The writing and animation for the scene make it much easier to swallow to the point that it didn't register with me that much.

This however has the framing on parts of the body and the accompanying clothing that is considered fetishistic and the scene immediately afterwards is very dissonant in tone with the nudity and lesbianism being very tone deaf to the previous scene.
Similarly, this might not register much with others.

There's no objective difference as to what's happening in the two shows, and not everyone is sensitive to how things are then presented. How a show presents something need not decide what one takes away from it.

However fetishistic the scene might be depicted, one can simply ignore that. And take it for what it undoubtedly also is; The ultimate symbolic victimization and degradation of someone previously sheltered and powerful, a sudden wake-up call to the brutality and depravity of the world they've hitherto believed in, and an annihilation of their previous image of themselves and their position in the world.

Of course, it probably not really a show that's meant to make people consider such matters (...particularly as they're related more to story structure than the plot itself). But why would that ever limit one's personal focus and interpretation?

Also, ignoring unfortunate implications is more or less a staple of anime watching. And indeed in enjoying much fiction in general. No one ever enjoyed GTA whilst thinking about what - usually horrific - implications the action onscreen would've had in real life. For good reason too, in that it never happened in or had any bearing on real life.

Reality and fiction are separate realms guided by separate laws, and never the twain shall meet. It is conceptually meaningless to judge that which has never happened, by the standards of it happening in real life.

Also, a hateable protagonist usually has something good about them , Walter White is a man who had a fall but was in the beginning a good man. There is no fall here, just instant nazi so all ability to invest in the character is gone.
Well, I imagine the plot - to the extent anyone behind or before the screen care about it - would be centered on the change away and redemption from such complete monster status. Why would watching a truly evil character slowly become good be less meaningful than watching a truly good character slowly become evil?

Not that a villainous protagonist can't be interesting to watch, as they spiral ever more out of control and beyond the moral event horizon. Don't think that's going to happen, though.

In addition, this is Sunrise. Gundam remains as a hallmark for writing for many people and even Valvrave had some plot and character before going to hell. I do not see the demographic being people who want lesbians fighting mechs a good excuse for a lack of plot or character.
Certainly a studio is entitled to produce whatever it wish?

It is disappointing when recent works from sources one have previously held in the highest regard do not prove equally engaging. But one should never question their right to do as they see fit, merely move on. An author who take ques from his fans can offer little but fanservice.

The best way to not support something is to not watch it and not pay for it. Whilst leaving those who do enjoy it to do so.

You may have your attention held after the robots appear but if I have to watch other episodes, I will be going through with a microscope over the plot and characters to see if this thing is worth a damn.
Why will you focus so heavily on something you're certain you won't appreciate, and which you can't even imagine an audience for?

Some would call that a good thing, but isn't it also the best argument for why you aren't in a position to tell people why they should or shouldn't be watching this show?

Dreiko said:
...
No, it's not important to inform people if they'll be offended by something. It really really isn't. Let people be offended. Offending people is a natural occurrence in this bloated ego society, it deserves absolutely no attention whatsoever.
...
This as well.

No one ever broadened their view on something by which they were not initially offended.
 

Izanagi009_v1legacy

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VanQ said:
Why do you purposefully expose yourself to something you know you aren't going to enjoy? I don't understand this mindset of "I hate it so I must watch it so I can complain about it."
Reviewers like Linakra, Nostalgia Critic, even the ANN reviewers typically have to watch bad shows for their jobs. I myself am doing some reviews for casual purposes and even if I wasn't, I would still be putting a big sign up saying "this show has a horrible scene and may not be that good"

And I watched the episode to see if the reactions were accurate and Yes, they were. They very much were.