Metal Gear Solid and rape

[Areloch]

I never bothered looking for or listening to the tapes, but in regards to the "vadge bomb"... It was simply overkill. That terribly explict scene of Paz getting opened up, stretched open, with hands reaching down her abdomen, intestines spilling out, and her regaining consciousness during the procedure and screaming in agony, all in order to remove the bomb... That was more than enough. If they wanted her to die, they should've let it happen during the bomb removal. Don't makes us sit through all that just to go 'psych, there was another one '.

Beyond being cruel, it's just lazy. It'd be like watching Alien, and right at the end when Ripley defeats the Alien the filmmakers decide there's actually another Alien with her on the shuttle.

There's actually a name for what you're describing:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HopeSpot

Suffice to say, it's not like it's unheard of, or inherently bad methodology. You could argue that it wasn't done well enough, but it's not like the writing trope itself is problematic.

 

[Casual Shinji]

We don't know a lot about Skullface and XOF so far, but I think it really establishes them as people not to mess with. As Kaz says "They've been playing us like a fiddle", and they did. The unexpected second bomb after the complete trauma of the first is just something that shows us that.

I think it was important in the terms of the overall story for there to be a second bomb, because after the first bomb extraction, everything was okay and we were heading back to MSF just fine. Then all the shit went down and the base gets destroyed. At the lowest moment we get dragged even lower by the second bomb. It's a very important way, for me, to end Paz's story, because she throws herself out of the helicopter. Skullface takes her womanhood from her, her hair, her agency, and violates her in the worst way. It's important for Paz to throw herself out of the helicopter at the end, at Big Boss's lowest point, as it redeems herin my eyes at least. She was a double agent and she betrays, but she takes back her agency in the final moment of her life to give Big Boss, Kaz and Chico a chance for revenge against XOF, Cypher and Skullface.

It's impossible to see if this will be important in MGS5, but if you look at Paz as a character and not just a plot device, it is important, both to give us insight into Skullface and to close of Paz's arc properly, with one last act of defiance that has so far defined her character. I'm pretty sure the second bomb will also cut out a lot of naivety from Snake's character as he completes his journey into becoming Big Boss.

Here's the thing, all of that could've been achieved with just the one bomb. Big Boss wasn't aware she was booby trapped till they were already well on their way to Mother Base. And that sense of relief already kicked in once you escaped the facility and got Paz safely on the chopper. So why not have them discover the abdomin bomb untill it's too late, followed by Paz throwing herself out the chopper? Or just have the vadge bomb on its own, since it was completely unnoticable to everyone anyway, and make it double as an implication of the horrors she's been put through.

By stacking these twists, it makes the initial shock twist and consequent suffering and eventual relief basically meaningless. And not in a way that adds in some way to the theme of being helpless in the face of torture or whatever, but in a way that nulifies our investment in the previous situation, since the story is retconning itself as it's going and jerking us around for the sake of shock.

Not that shock/despair build-up can't work, it can. Just look at Berserk and Game of Thrones. But you don't go about it by repeating yourself.

 

[SajuukKhar]

MGS2 for example implies that all of MGS1 was simulation of what actually happened, and that Raiden is just a representation of US the player,

No, it really doesn't.

Nowhere does MGS2 imply that the MGS1 we played was a simulation being played by Raiden, only that Raiden went through a VR simulation of it at some point.

 

[LaoJim]

Plus, if you're getting offended by the sexual violence in a game that has sexual violence written on the fucking cover as a way of dissuading people who are offended by sexual violence from purchasing it you honestly shouldn't be legally allowed to make your own purchasing decisions.

That said, people are offended by different things, and I can totally understand those who didn't like it, or didn't want to experience that in a video game they were playing for fun. I just don't see that as a problem. If you don't like that sort of thing, the obvious solution seems to be to not play the game. The one change I really would support though is the introduction of warnings or whatever at the beginning of games like these, or anything with potentially shocking content. That way everyone gets to play (or watch or read) whatever they want, and no-one is caught out and unnecessarily distressed by something they didn't want to experience.

The problem I think is that its not black and white case of "I am always offended by any kind of sexual violence". I'm generally fine with sexual violence in a story if it's done tastefully and sympathetically (I'm absolutely fine with pretty much anything that happens on Game of Thrones for example). This whole 'vagina bomb' thing sounds silly beyond belief however. Would I be offended by it? It sounds like the answer is yes, but maybe its not as bad as I imagine. I really don't know until I play it, if I choose to play it. In order to make this choice, on this occasion, I've needed to have had the plot completely spoiled.

The problem with saying if you don't like that sort of thing, don't play the game is that I would quite like to play the bits of the game that involve the actual gameplay of stealthing around - I'm being potentially put off by a plot element that may be gratuitous and unnecessary, or which may be a deep and seering indictment of Guantanamo Bay depending on who on this thread I listen to.

 

[crypticracer]

It was exploitive. As has been said, a single bomb would have accomplished the same thing without the extended surgery and shock twist, which yes is a surprise, but not one that's their for any other reason. But that's exploitation. It creates drama and excitement for pull the audience, not because it makes sense. Some people want everything to make sense, I don't, but it's a valid criticism.

I personally hate gore porn and would rather not have it in Metal Gear, but I also would never have made Raiden playable, if all we got was what we wanted Kojima wouldn't be the wonderful weirdo he is.

 

[crypticracer]

(Didn't mean to post twice, somehow ended up in a new post instead of editing, sorry.)

The problem with saying if you don't like that sort of thing, don't play the game is that I would quite like to play the bits of the game that involve the actual gameplay of stealthing around - I'm being potentially put off by a plot element that may be gratuitous and unnecessary, or which may be a deep and seering indictment of Guantanamo Bay depending on who on this thread I listen to.

MGS is a small bit of social commentary covered in Kojima's love of Hollywood action films and a dash of whatever non-sequitor he dreamt of the night before. Oh and some times you play a part of it... if Kojima remembers he's not making a movie.

The whole set up of the demo is an indictment of Guantanamo, but there a plenty of gratuitous moments. The games would be twenty minutes long if there weren't.

 

[LaoJim]

It's a good thing that the tapes in question that merely suggest the rape are completely and entirely optional.

And even if that's too much for you. Then you probably shouldn't be playing games if the mere suggestion of rape is too much for you to handle. If it's not and just makes you a bit uncomfortable then suck it up and deal with it. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.

My understanding, and I'm sorry if I'm a bit off here, again haven't played the game, is that it isn't so much 'the mere suggestion of rape' as 'a women exploding from a bomb forcibly placed in her vagina' and '(possibly pseudo)-child-on-child rape with voyeurs watching'

Suck it up and deal with it? Sure, that's what I'm doing, by not playing the game. I'm not suggesting you are wrong if you enjoy it. I'm not even suggesting it is definitely offensive, only that, based on the descriptions I've read, that it seems likely to be. I'm not suggesting it be banned. I am suggesting that I don't necessarily want to play such a game and that Kojima lost at least one sale.

In otherwords I'm answering the OPs question by saying "Yes I found it 'problematic'"

The suggestion that I shouldn't be playing any games if I find interuterinal explosives distasteful, is rather a peculiar one, since its a plot element that many, dare I say, most games seem to get along fine without.

There's a strange kind of circular logic going on here.

A - "I played this game and I found it offensive"
B - "If you weren't going to like it, you shouldn't have played it, so no right to complain"
C - "Yeah, I didn't like (that part of) it so I didn't play it"
D - "You should have played the game and just not complained about it, or any other game for that matter"

 

[Doopliss64]

I think people are vastly misinterpreting what's considered problematic here. It's not just a matter of "rape is offensive!" or being thin-skinned. Two points to consider:

A) It doesn't really gel with the tone of the game/series. Obviously, the series is sort of notable for its detours into absurd humor and slapstick, and its handling of "serious topics" such as rape in the past has always been more melodramatic than brutal. The entire series feels pretty detached from reality, so the extremely sudden detour into EXTREME graphic gorn and rape felt (and this is subjective) undeserved and out-of-place.

I feel the need to emphasize that, even in this individual game, we have a hero called BIG BOSS fighting a villain called SKULL FACE, a man with a skull face and a cowboy hat. Even if this game is somehow "more serious", it's still super campy, and more G.I. Joe than people seem to want to admit.

B) There seems to be an implication that Paz comes to enjoy her rape. This is a sort of common trope that's offensive for a number of reasons that I don't really feel like going into, and is probably a bigger deal than point A.

There's some video on youtube that lays it out far more eloquently than I can, but I honestly can't remember where to find it. I'm also not necessarily saying you're totally wrong, just that there's more to it than just being "offended".

 

[Chaos Isaac]

My real problem with it is...
The game doesn't entirely match up with it, considering that you can still like balloon dudes off and then it's like, "Yeah we shoved a bomb up her vagina after putting one in her stomach, and then we'll proceed to have the 'good guys' punch her anyways."

It's, well, just a bit too much. Honestly things like that bugged the fuck out of me with MGS3.

Generally speaking it's done pretty badly and isn't nearly handled competently. If you're gonna bother with it, at least handle it well.

 

[endtherapture]

B) There seems to be an implication that Paz comes to enjoy her rape. This is a sort of common trope that's offensive for a number of reasons that I don't really feel like going into, and is probably a bigger deal than point A.

Why? Stockholm syndrome is actually a thing you know.

It's the silly logic of "I don't like what happened in this part of the game (which did not last very long either) so I won't play the rest of the game or the main game when it releases". It was not that bad or distasteful or whatever to warrant that kind of logic. And to miss out on an otherwise solid game because of it is foolish honestly.

I think it's fair enough if someone misses out on an experience because they don't like the tone or how dark something gets. As long as they don't try to take it away from us then that's fine. A lot of people find films like Fight Club or Requiem for a Dream or A Clockwork Orange too dark and it's their prerogative to miss out on those great films if it makes them feel weird. The problem arises when they try to force their views onto others, such as if Kojima was forced to retcon Ground Zeroes because of public outrage over this kinda thing.

 

[LaoJim]

It's the silly logic of "I don't like what happened in this part of the game (which did not last very long either) so I won't play the rest of the game or the main game when it releases". It was not that bad or distasteful or whatever to warrant that kind of logic. And to miss out on an otherwise solid game because of it is foolish honestly.

You may be right, if and when I play the game, I might think it's all been a fuss over nothing. The problem with the 'Don't like it don't buy it' philosophy is that you can never be quite sure. I guess my thinking is when even Yahtzee is comparing Kojima's sexual politics to the retarded character in Of Mice and Men, I'm thinking a line has probably been crossed.

In any case the game is famous for being pretty short and, again as I understand it, the 'problematic' bit is the very climax of the game. In other words the bit I don't want to see is my reward for beating the game - it's hardly motivating, is it?

The other thing of course is my backlog is currently so large, that its no great hassle to miss out on the occasional 'solid' game. I don't need to pretend as though I'm making some noble sacrifice, its more a case of - this sounds absurd, overblown and a little bit creepy, drop it a good few places down my wishlist. Hell I'd probably be better off getting the MGS HD collection they released a while back.

 

[Leoofmoon]

Havent played the demo so dont really have any opinion on it in that game. From what you describe it sounds fine and to be honest it sounds like the sort of horrific thing that could and almost certainly does happen.

As for rape in general in games I have no problems with it or indeed anything else if I dont like certain things about a game I wont buy it or if its a dev and they keep making things I dont like I will likely not buy their future products. I dont think anything should be taboo and can be handled in any way they want.

A game having rape in is not going to sway my opinion on it one way or the other, if its a game centred around the glorification of rape odds are I wont get it unless it had amazing gameplay or something which is unlikely.

While I hate the subject of rape it does trigger (ahg) the right emotion with me, when I hear of a rape I don't think its hot or sexy I get angry. With something that happened in Grounds Zero's, (me being a MGS fan since 4 but I did go back and play what I could of 2, the HD of 3 and Peace walker.) you only hear the audio of the event but the sounds do haunt me and made me want to put 2 in skullface's eyes not to mention we are talking about a prison that was made to be outside of the U.S. jurisdiction so some really horrible stuff does go down there (Bolting in the ankles, making it hard to even stand and you can easily break your leg with that.)

With Phantom pain there seems to be no joking about what happens in this war times and I see that as a good thing, some kids think its all fun and games with the COD and some collage jerks are just ass hole with it, why not give a hard shot in the arm of reality.

 

[Casual Shinji]

The whole double bomb thing works a lot better with the relief-then-shock scenario. From the top, the fact that you actually found a "trap" already leads to a bigger relief, as you caught the would be threat. It makes the cast seem vigilant even in such a scenario, as they found the first bomb, and the process of removing it puts the characters and the player in the same sense of "shock" followed by the relief of a potential crisis being averted. Otherwise you'd be thinking that it all went too easy and something is bound to go bad, it does either way, but the small hopespot makes the tragedy more effective. It makes the villain seem more demented to come up with trap where the bait is a more obvious trap, both being bombs hidden inside of her body.

Big Boss going out to extract Paz and Chico was already the trap though, because Skullface uses the oppertunity to attack Mother Base while Big Boss is away. All it needed was the one unnoticable bomb (the second one) to blow the chopper.

It also flows a lot better than the alternatives, since it shows that the cast was savvy enough to check for a Trojan horse and more importantly finding one, as showing them searching for surtured wounds and not finding any would lead to same scenario being a bit more confusing later on without the earlier hopespot to cover for it. And them not checking at all, or atleast not showing them checking, would make them look a bit too dim for their roles and surroundings, while the double trap is understandably more easy to miss.

They weren't savvy though. When Big Boss encounters Paz in her jail cell he does a quick check on her and overlooks the giant patch of blood at the bottom of her shirt, and once he's loaded her onto the chopper neither him or any of his team bothers to check on her either. It's Chico who sounds the alarm, not Big Boss, or the medical profession.

So that first bomb was already easily missed if not for the little kid noticing it. And agian, if they just went for the vadge bomb that trojan horse wouldn't even have been necessary, since Skullface apparently assumed Paz would be unconcious the whole time and unable to tell Big Boss about the bombs. Seriously, had Paz simply been concious in the jail cell Skullface's whole plan would've failed miserably.

 

[SajuukKhar]

For people who keep calling Paz a child, she was born around 1950, and died in 1975.

She was 24/25 years old when she was possibly rapped, and had a bomb shoved.... somewhere.

 

[Kopikatsu]

From a previous thread.

This isn't new ground for Metal Gear. It's actually really old ground. Meryl was raped in MGS 1 (and discussed the pain and shame it caused her), EVA is implied to have done some things with Volgin and his men (one random example, her medical history lists her as having proctitis, an STD gotten through anal sex with many partners; and she describes him as a sadist who gets off on causing others pain and humiliation), Paz was raped by Coldman and cronies in Peace Walker, child soldiers have always been a part of the game (and you kill a fair number of them in MGS1), every game tends to have a prolonged sequence wherein Snake is tortured half to death, etc.

None of this is new for Metal Gear. It has always been this way. I don't know why people are suddenly obsessed over the whole thing. I find it kind of ridiculous that people think rape is where the line should be drawn in a game series where people are brutally murdered left and right, often for no better reason other than they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. Hell, Ocelot killed a group of his own allies just to test out a new gun technique.

 

[Ramzal]

So I just finished my first run through of Ground Zeroes. Good game? Yes, but it was too short but bodes well for MGS5 in my opinion in gameplay terms. SPOILERS FOR GROUND ZEROES WILL BE BELOW.

Seeing from the trailers of The Phantom Pain, the game is going for an incredibly realistic and dark tone. Ground Zeroes marked a shift in the somewhat Zany and crazy Peace Walker to a hyper-realistic, strikingly dark world of MGS5. This is a game about extranational Guantanamo Bay-like camp, with lots of torture and child soldiers thrown in too, and it's speculated the game where Big Boss goes from hero to villain. Metal Gear Solid has always had some heavy hitting themes, whether it's tackling soldiers or the control of information or the nature of genes, but it's always been a bit weird too with lots of weird Japaense stuff like big walking robots.

In Ground Zeroes you're sent into what is effectively Guantanamo Bay for two captured prisoners, Paz and Chico. Paz is a double agent for a secret society and Chico is a child soldier who has a crush on her. Paz is meant to be 17 but she's actually 23, Chico is about 15 I think and he has a crush on her. Either way Big Boss has to go and get them out of the super realistic videogame version of Guantanamo bay.

The controversy appears to be sections of people getting offended over collectible tapes in the game portraying Chico being forced to rape Caz by the games antagonist, Skullface. They're pretty harrowing considering it's basically a child unwillingly being forced to rape another child with a bunch of men watching. Also later in the game Paz gets a bomb cut out of her, and then there's a second bomb and it is implied to be somewhere else (maybe her vagina, we don't know fully).

People are offended because it is Kojima going too far over this, objectifying women , rape is bad etc. I don't quite understand this because it was the intention for us to be disgusting and for us to hate the perpetrators of the torture, given that they could be the villains for a big part of The Phantom Pain. The vagina bomb is pretty gross too but similar kind of thing, it's meant to shock given the new darker tone of the MGS5 project.

I think tone is important and whilst what happened is very dark, it's pretty similar in tone to what the rest of MGSV appears to be - child soldiers, lost limbs, crippling people with bolts through ankles, physical and psychological torture, violence, war and nukes.

What did you think? Were you offended? Can you see past the offence and see the point that Kojima is making or the emotions you want to send? Or is it just too "problematic" for you?

To be honest people are too easily offended. I'm really feeling like now in the digital age, people don't interact as much as they used to and simply get data-feeds shot into their eyes while not experiencing the real world. If you can't handle a topic of rape, child soldiers, lost limbs, the crippled and the broken in war or even actual character emotions in a video game than you are in for a ride when your life actually starts because you won't be able to handle anything.

When someone with vision can't push the envelope because people can't handle certain content, that's when you know society is screwed.