Microsoft: "Tiled Resources" Key To Xbox One Graphics

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Retardinator

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Tucker154 said:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Valve already use this technique in the Left 4 Dead games, or at least something similar?
Not exactly. That's the visual leaves, which cut out parts of the level you can't see. In most games there is also a practice of cutting out all the faces/polygons behind what the player/camera is looking at (dunno if that's the case in L4D).

OT: Just because MS decided to combine other elements with that and gave it a fancy name doesn't exactly make it anything new or revolutionary. It seems to be a bit more advanced mix of visleafs (kinda), LOD management (every fucking game ever) and mipmapping (ditto).
Essentially they're touting they've improved rendering technology from Doom. Well I got news for you: So did everybody else.
Don't mean shit if Rockstar San Diego comes to port GTAIV to your console with its bloated usage of resources and inefficient world loading, can't hit 30 FPS and make you cry sweet lizardman tears.
 

Flames66

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That's great, except graphics got as good as they needed to be years ago. Focus on something else.
 

Whoracle

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Hagi said:
[...]
On the contrary, most everyone probably is already doing it. A lot of techniques like this already exist and are used a lot.
[...]
TBH, as I understand it, not many games do that. It's not "Don't compute stuff that's outside of the FOV", but "Render stuff that's on the fringe of the FOV in lower quality". I checked 3 games for that since I read that post (Uncharted 3 [PS3], The Secret World [PC], and Kingdom Hearts II [PS2]), and none of those do that.
It's easy to test: Stand still, and compare the center of your screen to the borders. Any difference in fidelity?

Care to hook me up with a few games that implement this? I want to see if it's noticable.
 

Hagi

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Whoracle said:
Hagi said:
[...]
On the contrary, most everyone probably is already doing it. A lot of techniques like this already exist and are used a lot.
[...]
TBH, as I understand it, not many games do that. It's not "Don't compute stuff that's outside of the FOV", but "Render stuff that's on the fringe of the FOV in lower quality. I checked 3 games for that since I read that post (Uncharted 3 [PS4], The Secret World [PC], and Kingdom Hearts II [PS2]), and none of those do that.
It's easy to test: Stand still, and compare the center of your screen to the borders. Any difference in fidelity?

Care to hook me up with a few games that implement this? I want to see if it's noticable.
Well I'm unsure on the exact implementation as Microsoft simply doesn't seem to mention this. There's a lot of factors when it comes to texture quality.

There's the size of the texture itself, a 2048 texture is going to cost less performance than a 4096 texture, swapping them out when you focus on them might be smart but it's got the obvious issue seen in Rage where you get texture popping. On top of that in order to swap them out you're going to have to hold them both in memory, which takes up a lot of space. From what I can read it might be this, in which case Rage would be a good example to look at, but on the other hand this isn't the best way to use techniques like this because of the texture popping thing.

I may be overestimating Microsoft here but what I'm hoping it is instead for example AA techniques like seen in the ENB mod series ( www.enbdev.com ) which you can see in games like Skyrim and GTA IV ( when using the mod, do note that it also changes many other things in how objects are rendered ). What this does is that it using high quality AA near the center of the screen and gradually decreases the quality towards the edges. So the center will be rendered as if you're using the best possible AA setting, but since the very edges are much lower in quality the actual performance cost is only that of a medium AA setting.

On top of that what's also possible is to decrease the quality of many supporting textures like normal maps, when they're not near the center of the screen. This would be a lot less noticeable when switching so shouldn't produce the texture popping issue mentioned above whilst still causing an increase in performance.

Those two are much more subtle and very hard to notice when just playing, and since games don't exactly list their rendering techniques it's hard to provide examples unless you've got issues like texture popping in Rage or an explicit change list like for the ENB mod.

What's simpler to say though is that the concept of using less intensive rendering techniques and resources near the edges of the screen has been around for well over a decade. Chances that DirectX, which has pretty much always been running after OpenGL, is featuring something that hasn't been done before is practically zero.
 

Revolutionary

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Yeah we get it. it's trivial tech news, no need to be a smarmy git about it. Also anyone clicking on a trivial tech article probably does want to be "bored with the details", so you could have at least included a link to site that does have technical details. This is the escapist there are people here that get excited about tech-demo trailers.
eg...
 

Amakusa

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nope, it's a nice concept but that isn't enough for me to reserve order a xbone.
 

Whoracle

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Hagi said:
Those two are much more subtle and very hard to notice when just playing, and since games don't exactly list their rendering techniques it's hard to provide examples unless you've got issues like texture popping in Rage or an explicit change list like for the ENB mod.
Well, that's interesting at least. Will have to check that out. I'd say it should be notable when REALLY looking for it, but you're right, definitely not while playing the game regularly. Thanks for the examples :D
 

Clovus

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It sounds like this is only useful for FPS, and even there it would be annoying. Outside of the bits where I'm actually shooting down the sites, I don't keep my eyes glued to the center of the screen. I don't like settings that cause the edges of the picture to not be in focus or be a lower quality.

Your eyes can move really, really quickly. If there's something interesting to see, I'm usually looking at it on the edge of the screen as I'm moving the reticule towards it. I actually like to stop and look at things in games, and sometimes the best view means that I actually look at the whole screen instead of moving the reticule all over it. It's like requiring that you can only look at stuff focused in real life by turning your whole head instead of just using your eyeballs.

So, I'd prefer to just keep upgrading incrementally with more powerful hardware (ie, like on a PC), rather that using shortcuts like this.
 

Prof.Beany

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Im sorry but is this actually new?
I mean I could be wrong but I swear this tech is as old as 3D gaming itself (hyperbole, obviously).
And whats more I dont see how this is really a hardware specific thing as it sounds more like its handled by the rendering code as opposed to any specific hardware features.
Seriously I know Ive turned around overly fast and seen textures and such pop in more than once in my time gaming so MS are really going to need something better to convince me.
 

neppakyo

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UltimatheChosen said:
neppakyo said:
So in layman's terms, they have to do shortcuts due to the underwhelming lack of power of their hardware.

Pretty much what I got from their statement. After the wrost console reveal in all time of console reveals, people shouldn't preorder it. Make MS wait, lose some money so they can actual make it better. Don't give MS a free pass. Yes, I'm talking to all you xboners.
Basically every piece of hardware uses shortcuts of some kind-- it's called optimization.

Id Software is well-known for pioneering or at least popularizing a lot of techniques that let you squeeze more performance out of computers-- look up adaptive tile refresh or raycasting for some of the earlier examples of this. (The later examples are more impressive, but also more difficult to understand.)
True enough. Still, I hope the xbone doesn't hold back games due to it being the worst performer. Devs usually develop for the weakest system, hopefully they can take full advantage of the superior hardware of the PS4. It's a lot faster, and has more available memory for games to use. The xbone itself takes 3GB for it's OS's on it, and whatever silly 'TV TV SPORTS SPORTS' and such features as well.

captcha: for the gipper - So, that means the PC/PS4 is the gipper? o_O
 

Ruley

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Doesn't Borderlands 2 and Battlefield 3 already do this resulting in texture pop in when you turn around? MASSIVELY immersion breaking... I don't know if i trust this to be in every single game given how it wasn't properly handled in those two. This feature may already exist in other games though and the fact that i didn't notice them is testament to the system working.

Yet, still a few bad eggs will slip though i imagine.
 

Sol_HSA

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Nov 25, 2008
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So I went and read the opengl extension. Which wasn't pretty clear. Googled around. More or less figured out what's this about.

It's a texture memory management scheme, where you can have a, for instance, 16384x16384 texture which isn't actually in memory (as that would take gigabyte), but can be used as if it was. The game can upload pieces (tiles, here) of the texture or delete them, based on what's needed.

This could be spun as real, cool news, but, again, microsoft manages just to confuse people. I don't get it.
 

jack3000

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Just to clear some things up: tiled resources has nothing to do with tesselation, which is increasing polygons in closeups. This is about textures.

LOD through MIP has existing for a long time, so obviously this is not what MS is claiming they just thought up...
Tiling large textures such as in RAGE has already been implemented as well of course, which is the software-manual version of what tiled resources now offers through hardware.

What is is new here: a direct3d card hardware lookup table that performs tile lookups of large textures, making both shaders as well as software engines using it much easier AND faster.
 

devotedsniper

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Wow what an awesome new feature! wait..it isn't oh...

and so much for the new consoles outpowering pc's.
 

Hero in a half shell

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jack3000 said:
Just to clear some things up: tiled resources has nothing to do with tesselation, which is increasing polygons in closeups. This is about textures.

LOD through MIP has existing for a long time, so obviously this is not what MS is claiming they just thought up...
Tiling large textures such as in RAGE has already been implemented as well of course, which is the software-manual version of what tiled resources now offers through hardware.

What is is new here: a direct3d card hardware lookup table that performs tile lookups of large textures, making both shaders as well as software engines using it much easier AND faster.
It sounds like we've all misunderstood what exactly this thing is, but I don't fully understand what you mean, I think what you mean is that they've created a brand newmore efficient way for the textures to be stored and called from the RAM, which would be a really innovative feature. Is that right, or could you explain it in more simple terms? Thanks.
 

Nadia Castle

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What a lovely piece of marketing fluff. I wonder if it will be as intense as Blast Processing or the PS2's mighty emotion engine that will make our games look as good as Toy Story?