Minority Characters in Gaming (TLoU Spoilers)

[JayElleBee]

Wow, I'm rather nervous about starting this thread, since I've seen how rapidly they go downhill. But I'm pretty curious about this, so I'm going to do it anyway.

A little while back, there was a thread discussing homosexuality in gaming. A lot of the comments I read which were against the idea, stated that there was no way to have a gay character in a game without slapping the player in the face with the character's sexual orientation. Some people even seemed to be under the impression that to have a gay character, the game itself would have to be all about homosexuality.

After playing The Last of Us, which has a well-rounded (literally and figuratively) gay character in it, I was wondering if anyone had reconsidered.

The character in question, Bill, was pretty subtle about his orientation. I'm generally always on high alert looking for any good depictions of LGBT characters in the media I like, and yet even I only passingly wondered if he and his 'partner' were more than just scavenging buddies. It wasn't until my second playthrough that it really clicked that he was, in fact, gay.

So, if you've played TLoU and were initially against the inclusion of gay characters in gaming, has this changed your mind? If not, why not? And if you were for the inclusion of gay characters in gaming, what did you think Bill?

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

 

[B5Alpha]

Depends on the type of game. It wouldn't really fit in a shooter, especially with the whole "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" thing in the US military. In RPG's, it's totally fine. I mean, just look at Fallout: New Vegas. Two of the companions were gay, and they didn't make a big deal about it. It didn't really effect me or the story that much, and it added some diversity. In fact, you could even play your character gay I believe. Minorities can be in games without making a big deal out of it or any stereotyping.

 

[JayElleBee]

I think there's room for gay characters in shooters. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed and even before it was, there was still gay men and women in the military. And if DADT was still in effect during the story, all it would really take is the gay member of the group staying quiet, awkwardly avoiding pronouns or changing the subject when the others discuss their wives and girlfriends, to hint at his sexuality. Easy peasy. That's not to say such a conversation should be shoe-horned in just to point out a character's sexuality, it's just an example of a way it could be done.

 

[sethisjimmy]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I totally agree. It's a popular school of thought that gay characters' sexuality shouldn't be obvious or that it shouldn't ever interfere with their character development or characterization. While that is definitely one way to do it, often in real life a person's sexuality does become a large part of who they are. Straight people typically tend to subconsciously assume everyone is straight and don't like to be reminded of other sexualities because to us sexuality isn't something that should shape a person's identity. However in real life, when a person isn't straight, it's often a big deal in their lives. They get bullied on the small scale and on a societal scale, and it's almost taboo, to the point where they have to "come out" because otherwise everyone simply assumes heterosexuality. There is a ton of stress and pressure in the life of a person who isn't straight. And while it's nice that some people whose sexuality doesn't have to be a big part of their life, it's not always the case.

So you can look at it from the perspective that maybe these "unassuming" gay characters are an attempt to normalize homosexuality, a shot at trying to make people realize that gay people are no different than themselves. But on the other hand, in real life some people don't want to blend in like that. Sometimes guys are overtly effeminate and girls obviously masculine, stuff like that. There's no rules for making a non-hetero character but I don't think we as a community should just blindly accept that the only way to make a gay character is to relegate their sexuality to only subtle reference.

 

[Dragonbums]

Gamers I have found can be the most immature about LGBT characters depicted in games.
I was starting to get furious at the accusastions Bioware was getting from the fans when they caught wind some characters could be gay.

Like, Garrus was never gay in the first or second games. What the fuck makes you think that all of a sudden in ME3 he's going to try to get after your Malesheps' dick just because the team stated that there were going to be gay romance options. Especially when you know that you are always the one to initiate and end the romance?

I think the problem also comes in the fact that when most people do portray LGBT people.
Which is usually them being walking cock hunting machines. Them being gay is literally their biggest character trait. That's it.

As for people of color, man I would love to see that.
Especially when I myself is black and a woman.
Left for Dead 2 is literally the only thing that comes to mind when I think of a game that represents my demographic. That's it.(Excluding those character creation RPGs)
However, we have a long way to go before this will happen.
People still whine in droves about how playing as a white female character breaks them out of the game. I don't want to know how bad it will be with a black female character. (Y'know aside from all the racial slurs and all that.)

 

[Fox12]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I totally agree. It's a popular school of thought that gay characters' sexuality shouldn't be obvious or that it shouldn't ever interfere with their character development or characterization. While that is definitely one way to do it, often in real life a person's sexuality does become a large part of who they are. Straight people typically tend to subconsciously assume everyone is straight and don't like to be reminded of other sexualities because to us sexuality isn't something that should shape a person's identity. However in real life, when a person isn't straight, it's often a big deal in their lives. They get bullied on the small scale and on a societal scale, and it's almost taboo, to the point where they have to "come out" because otherwise everyone simply assumes heterosexuality. There is a ton of stress and pressure in the life of a person who isn't straight. And while it's nice that some people whose sexuality doesn't have to be a big part of their life, it's not always the case.

So you can look at it from the perspective that maybe these "unassuming" gay characters are an attempt to normalize homosexuality, a shot at trying to make people realize that gay people are no different than themselves. But on the other hand, in real life some people don't want to blend in like that. Sometimes guys are overtly effeminate and girls obviously masculine, stuff like that. There's no rules for making a non-hetero character but I don't think we as a community should just blindly accept that the only way to make a gay character is to relegate their sexuality to only subtle reference.

It depends on how well it's handled. The problem with making too big a deal out of a character being gay is that he/she can potentially be written off as "the gay character." In other words, if done poorly, they can fall into a stereotype where their only defining characteristic is that they are gay. This is more of an issue with poor writing though, and a larger plotline dealing with homosexuality can be done in the hands of a talanted writer. I'm glad they kept it subtle in TLOU though, as a subplot about a homosexual character would have dragged down the story, and they didn't have enough time to fully develop Bills character enough for it to work. He would have had to be more involved with the overall plot, which would have taken the focus from joel and ellie. Regardless, I hope he returns in the (possible) sequel, as his banter with ellie was hilarious.

 

[SinisterDeath]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I figured it out fairly easily. his mention of 'partner' is a very common 'code word'. And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

 

[IllumInaTIma]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I figured it out fairly easily. his mention of 'partner' is a very common 'code word'. And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

Well, I'm thick like that, what could you do.
And hey, partner is not always implied "code word". I mean, otherwise, there's new depth in Persona 4.
<img src=http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo31bo54kj1qbyqe2.jpg>

 

[SinisterDeath]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I figured it out fairly easily. his mention of 'partner' is a very common 'code word'. And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

Well, I'm thick like that, what could you do.
And hey, partner is not always implied "code word". I mean, otherwise, there's new depth in Persona 4.
<img src=http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo31bo54kj1qbyqe2.jpg>

Sure, its not always used as a code word. But it often is.
Saying 'my boyfriend' (as a guy) makes it fairly obvious, and stands out more.
"Partner" which can go either-way (hehe), basically allows for someone who already knows, know what they mean, and those that don't remain peaceably ignorant.

And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

Want to add. That unless the Articles in that male-nudie magazine were really good. I really doubt any straight guy would ever collect those... even in that situation.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I think there's room for gay characters in shooters. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed and even before it was, there was still gay men and women in the military. And if DADT was still in effect during the story, all it would really take is the gay member of the group staying quiet, awkwardly avoiding pronouns or changing the subject when the others discuss their wives and girlfriends, to hint at his sexuality. Easy peasy. That's not to say such a conversation should be shoe-horned in just to point out a character's sexuality, it's just an example of a way it could be done.

Pray tell how you would propose that a game like COD would go about doing this and by extension, why do you believe is it even important to have a character in the first place?

 

[SinisterDeath]

I think there's room for gay characters in shooters. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed and even before it was, there was still gay men and women in the military. And if DADT was still in effect during the story, all it would really take is the gay member of the group staying quiet, awkwardly avoiding pronouns or changing the subject when the others discuss their wives and girlfriends, to hint at his sexuality. Easy peasy. That's not to say such a conversation should be shoe-horned in just to point out a character's sexuality, it's just an example of a way it could be done.

Pray tell how you would propose that a game like COD would go about doing this and by extension, why do you believe is it even important to have a character in the first place?

One way to do it, is have the hero, do what he normally does. And at the end, go home to his 'man'.
Would be a nice kick in the butt.. But I bet no developer out there would have the 'balls' to do that.

Also
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tsfdVeqhGBs#t=533s

I mean. That ending has to come up in that discussion...

 

[xaszatm]

Gamers I have found can be the most immature about LGBT characters depicted in games.
I was starting to get furious at the accusastions Bioware was getting from the fans when they caught wind some characters could be gay.

Like, Garrus was never gay in the first or second games. What the fuck makes you think that all of a sudden in ME3 he's going to try to get after your Malesheps' dick just because the team stated that there were going to be gay romance options. Especially when you know that you are always the one to initiate and end the romance?

I think the problem also comes in the fact that when most people do portray LGBT people.
Which is usually them being walking cock hunting machines. Them being gay is literally their biggest character trait. That's it.

As for people of color, man I would love to see that.
Especially when I myself is black and a woman.
Left for Dead 2 is literally the only thing that comes to mind when I think of a game that represents my demographic. That's it.(Excluding those character creation RPGs)
However, we have a long way to go before this will happen.
People still whine in droves about how playing as a white female character breaks them out of the game. I don't want to know how bad it will be with a black female character. (Y'know aside from all the racial slurs and all that.)

You mean to tell me that you're not actually a slightly annoyed pink dragon? MY LIFE HAS BEEN A LIE!!! *sobs*

As for Black female characters, wasn't Alyx Vance from Half-Life 2 at least partially black? I know the model they used for the game was. I think there was also the character from Assassin's Creed: Liberations, though I haven't played the game to know for sure.

OT: As someone of Asian decent, my race perhaps counts for about half of video game characters anyways (in the broad sense anyways). But yeah, I would like to see other minorities in video games ass long as their minority is not the only trait they possess.

 

[Miss G.]

I wasn't even aware that Bill was supposed to be gay until I've read some posts about it. And yeah, now it makes sense, and it was really subtle. So, basically the fact that Bill was gay meant nothing to the story. It didn't affect his skills, his personality, or basically, anything. He just happened to be gay. And that's definitely one way to handle that. But, on the other hand, is this the only way to handle gay characters? For example, in Persona 4, Kanji's struggle against his sexuality was cornerstone of his character, and that is one of the reasons he is held in such high regard.
So, maybe it's not about how we handle gay characters, but how well they are written.

I figured it out fairly easily. his mention of 'partner' is a very common 'code word'. And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

Well, I'm thick like that, what could you do.
And hey, partner is not always implied "code word". I mean, otherwise, there's new depth in Persona 4.
<img src=http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lo31bo54kj1qbyqe2.jpg>

But Yosuke acts so 'deep in the closet' around the time that you get Kanji that that's all I could think about whenever he says the word 'partner'.... that and his social link ending made me wonder more than I usually would as a slash fan.

 

[Helmholtz Watson]

I think there's room for gay characters in shooters. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed and even before it was, there was still gay men and women in the military. And if DADT was still in effect during the story, all it would really take is the gay member of the group staying quiet, awkwardly avoiding pronouns or changing the subject when the others discuss their wives and girlfriends, to hint at his sexuality. Easy peasy. That's not to say such a conversation should be shoe-horned in just to point out a character's sexuality, it's just an example of a way it could be done.

Pray tell how you would propose that a game like COD would go about doing this and by extension, why do you believe is it even important to have a character in the first place?

One way to do it, is have the hero, do what he normally does. And at the end, go home to his 'man'.
Would be a nice kick in the butt.. But I bet no developer out there would have the 'balls' to do that.

I suppose you could do that, but it doesn't answer the second half of my question-why is it even necessary to have a gay character in video games like COD to begin with? It might make sense for RPGs, but for shooters or games like Hitman? Why should I have to know that Mr.47 is gay(btw if I had to guess, I'd say the guy is asexual)?

 

[SinisterDeath]

I think there's room for gay characters in shooters. Don't Ask, Don't Tell has been repealed and even before it was, there was still gay men and women in the military. And if DADT was still in effect during the story, all it would really take is the gay member of the group staying quiet, awkwardly avoiding pronouns or changing the subject when the others discuss their wives and girlfriends, to hint at his sexuality. Easy peasy. That's not to say such a conversation should be shoe-horned in just to point out a character's sexuality, it's just an example of a way it could be done.

Pray tell how you would propose that a game like COD would go about doing this and by extension, why do you believe is it even important to have a character in the first place?

One way to do it, is have the hero, do what he normally does. And at the end, go home to his 'man'.
Would be a nice kick in the butt.. But I bet no developer out there would have the 'balls' to do that.

I suppose you could do that, but it doesn't answer the second half of my question-why is it even necessary to have a gay character in video games like COD to begin with? It might make sense for RPGs, but for shooters or games like Hitman? Why should I have to know that Mr.47 is gay(btw if I had to guess, I'd say the guy is asexual).

It would show that the hero is human?
Also, see the edited response. got a nice youtube video on it.

 

[cthulhuspawn82]

I have talked about this with a friend before and we realized what the problem is. In the real world gay people are a natural thing. Nobody made them that way, and they didn't choose to be that way. But in fiction a character is gay because somebody intentionally "made" him gay, and it comes off as fabricated and artificial, especially when the choice to make someone gay is done for some reason such as making a heavy handed political statement.

I think the pilot for the TV series "Under the Dome" handles it well. There is an interracial lesbian couple, with a teenage daughter. The moment they appeared I was like "Countdown to cliche bigot attack and "we were born this way" defense". But surprisingly, nobody ever brings it up. They are just who they are and nobody criticizes them or praises them either way. Its just a non issue. This is the best way to handle it I think.

As for video games.
Game with gay characters I thought were natural and authentic = Dragon Age
Game with gay characters that were awkward and forced = Dragon Age 2

 

[Mossberg Shotty]

I figured it out fairly easily. his mention of 'partner' is a very common 'code word'. And it became very obvious when Ellie opened up that nudie magazine. Very Obvious.

Is that really significant evidence though? I could be wrong, but I seem to remember seeing a few females in there as well. The only thing I can think of that hints at it being a gay magazine is when Ellie says something like, "How can he even walk with something like that?"

I kinda wondered about Bill's sexuality with the whole 'partner' thing, but is there anything that really confirms it?

 

[Abomination]

I have talked about this with a friend before and we realized what the problem is. In the real world gay people are a natural thing. Nobody made them that way, and they didn't choose to be that way. But in fiction a character is gay because somebody intentionally "made" him gay, and it comes off as fabricated and artificial, especially when the choice to make someone gay is done for some reason such as making a heavy handed political statement.

I think the pilot for the TV series "Under the Dome" handles it well. There is an interracial lesbian couple, with a teenage daughter. The moment they appeared I was like "Countdown to cliche bigot attack and "we were born this way" defense". But surprisingly, nobody ever brings it up. They are just who they are and nobody criticizes them or praises them either way. Its just a non issue. This is the best way to handle it I think.

As for video games.
Game with gay characters I thought were natural and authentic = Dragon Age
Game with gay characters that were awkward and forced = Dragon Age 2

To be fair, Dragon Age II seemed to be going for the whole "one size fits all" when it came to relationships.

It seemed almost everyone was bisexual... and those who were bisexual tended to be seriously "damaged goods". I felt as though any romantic relationship I was having with them was a form of statutory rape, it felt like they weren't emotionally developed enough to understand exactly what was going on between Hawke and them.