Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[Jack Action]

That was probably a bad choice of words on my part. In reality there are some things we just don't have words for. There's nothing shameful about having your view point.

I was kidding. Who and how often people have sex with isn't any of my business.

The chainmail bikini doesn't exist because people mistakenly think it'd work as armour, though. It exists because of a desire to depict men and women very differently.

While I usually disagree with you, I generally can't think of a single hole to poke in your arguments. Have to wait for someone else to do it. Still, while (possibly) true, I do believe that it would be easier to argue against them by pointing out they make no goddamn sense. At the very least you'd alienate fewer people.

 

[Draconalis]

I wish someone who's well-versed in Japanese culture in this forum can shed some light on the differences between our country and theirs when it comes to the subject of sex.

The Japanese are an incredibly repressed people. So much so that their population is on the decline because no one is having babies.

Sex isn't fun for the Japanese, it's a stressful event.

 

[Thaluikhain]

The chainmail bikini doesn't exist because people mistakenly think it'd work as armour, though. It exists because of a desire to depict men and women very differently.

While I usually disagree with you, I generally can't think of a single hole to poke in your arguments. Have to wait for someone else to do it. Still, while (possibly) true, I do believe that it would be easier to argue against them by pointing out they make no goddamn sense. At the very least you'd alienate fewer people.

Certainly, you'd upset less people, and I can definitely appreciate wanting to do that, to avoid another long pointless argument, but you'd be doing that by not actually talking about the issue. Might almost as well not say anything. This is a common problem that applies to lots of issues.

In this context, though, there's the added problem that a lot of fantasy armour and weapons would be totally rubbish anyway. A chainmail bikini would seem more practical than attaching 2 tonnes of black spikes to your outfit, for example.

 

[Sight Unseen]

The reason why I dislike Anita Sarkeesian is because she's no better than a creationist: she's not doing "objective science and research" she jas a pre-defined conclusion and she's cherry-picking data points that support her conclusion. She will completely neglect counter-points even if they reside within that SAME games that she's criticizing.

She's also not a gamer, and has admitted as such. She's not playing the games she's researching... She's stealing Let's Play footage from youtubers without permission or even letting them know about it. She doesn't want to promote an open discussion of her videos or her topics because she blocked out the comments sections on all of her videos.

And in some cases she completely makes shit up for the sake of making a game sound worse than it is. She made an example of Hitman where there's a part where you can kill and move stripper's bodies around and talks for minutes on end about how this game is DESIGNED to be a sexual playground for men to objectify these women... Completely ignoring the facts that:

a) These strippers were only present in one small part of one small level.
b) There was an alternate route that the player can take that would have avoided the strippers all together
c) The game actively PENALIZES you by reducing your score for killing the strippers because they are civilians
d) The game lets you kill and move the bodies of ANY male or female in the game so it's not being sexist in that regard.
e) Almost no let's play footage of the game shows any of the players interacting with the strippers in any way except to sneak past them.

This whole manufactured scenario is a perfect case study for why Anita is a corrupt and agenda driven liar. She doesn't care about video games, or about whether they're actually sexist or not... She's just trying to cause a shit storm like all those other internet feminists who play the victim card whenever anyone criticises them.

THAT'S why I don't like Anita. Call me a mysogynist scumbag if you want but that would just make you no better than her.

 

[gargantual]

One thing I gotta ask. I usually ask this out of curiosity of friends I meet. What were your first Rated R films, and how old were you roughly when you saw them?

Yeah ok... I'll bite..

I watched a lot of stuff with my big brother when we were growing up, My mum usually wasn't home, or was drunk ( or worse ), so it's worth pointing out that these were viewed without her parental consent.

I'm not sure exactly how the 'R' classification works, so here's a list, pick what fits

Hammer horror ( pretty much all of them, I remember bride of dracula pretty vividly) - 5 to 7
Nightmare on elm street - 9
I saw robocop when it came out, I must've been 11
american werewolf in london about 9

As to pornography, my step-dad had a party with his friends when I was 17 and they watched some porn... I couldn't handle being in a room with other people watching it ( and had a bunch of other issues at the time), left in less than a minute, didn't watch porn again until I was about 25 ...

Ahh. I watched a bit with my dad and older sister in my tween yrs.
First R rated film was Braveheart and Schindler's List when I was 12. They still made me cover my eyes for the naked scenes too. I didn't want to piss em off of course. but I raided the rest of the VHS collection during summer break when they were all at work, and I remember thinking. "Ok. Breasts. They're actually quite nice. Wonder what everyone was so scared of? I don't remember it making me any less prudent or guarded regarding other people's exposure in reality. I absorbed stuff in context, but didn't have the vocabulary to explain how I internalized media with a little bit of nuance. It was sort of subconcious Oh right I'm off track. But yeah I splurged from then.

Saw "Colors" (unsupervised),
Terminator 2 (unsupervised)
Silence of The Lambs
The Birdcage (unsupervised),
Friday (unsupervised)
Akira was a loaner from a friend at school (unsupervised),
Fargo was with my older sister and that woodchipper scene still...wow....
Seven (unsupervised) yeah..that was considerably unsettling at first view, but I DAMN glad I saw it!! LOL.

and a few of John Grisham based flicks and murder mysteries, then found my

First porn I can technically say I saw was an dusty mag of Penthouse, conveniently hidden at the top of a rarely traveled top shelf in the family living room. Being bored home alone allows for much discovery don't it.

 

[grassgremlin]

I wish someone who's well-versed in Japanese culture in this forum can shed some light on the differences between our country and theirs when it comes to the subject of sex.

The Japanese are an incredibly repressed people. So much so that their population is on the decline because no one is having babies.

Sex isn't fun for the Japanese, it's a stressful event.

Oh, wait, yeah I been reading about that. My bad, most of my point might be void at that point. But now that opens an even larger can of worms in comparison to how sex is viewed in this country. I might need some time to think on that one. But yesh, thanks for reminding me.

 

[Jack Action]

Certainly, you'd upset less people, and I can definitely appreciate wanting to do that, to avoid another long pointless argument, but you'd be doing that by not actually talking about the issue. Might almost as well not say anything. This is a common problem that applies to lots of issues.

In this context, though, there's the added problem that a lot of fantasy armour and weapons would be totally rubbish anyway. A chainmail bikini would seem more practical than attaching 2 tonnes of black spikes to your outfit, for example.

What the problem is is something we're always going to disagree on, so we might as well not get into an argument over it. Afaik, your problem is the reason they exist, mine is the fact they exist, and the OP probably dislikes us both because in our own ways we'd like to see less of these things.

As for not saying anything? I don't expect anyone to silence their opinions because they might offend someone, my point was that being less... aggressive? Close enough. Less aggressive would make your (general you, not you specifically) arguments feel less like an attack on what people enjoy (see OP's point).

And personally, I'd rather have two tonnes of black spikes on me than a chainmail codpiece. At least the spikes might hurt someone who tries to attack me, even if I couldn't move.

 

[Thaluikhain]

What the problem is is something we're always going to disagree on, so we might as well not get into an argument over it. Afaik, your problem is the reason they exist, mine is the fact they exist, and the OP probably dislikes us both because in our own ways we'd like to see less of these things.

Fair enough.

As for not saying anything? I don't expect anyone to silence their opinions because they might offend someone, my point was that being less... aggressive? Close enough. Less aggressive would make your (general you, not you specifically) arguments feel less like an attack on what people enjoy (see OP's point).

If what you are talking about isn't what you think is the problem, you are being silent on the problem though. It's only less aggressive in that you are avoiding talking about something others don't want to hear.

And personally, I'd rather have two tonnes of black spikes on me than a chainmail codpiece. At least the spikes might hurt someone who tries to attack me, even if I couldn't move.

You have to get into and out of the thing without stabbing yourself, though. Once you were in it and not doing anything, you'd be alright.

 

[grassgremlin]

One thing I gotta ask. I usually ask this out of curiosity of friends I meet. What were your first Rated R films, and how old were you roughly when you saw them?

My first r-rated film? I was nine, I think. My aunt always had movie nights. In some films with sex scenes we had to divert our eyes (I peaked cause I was a little shit)

As for porn? 11-13 is the earliest I can remember. My mom was kind of non-chalant about her kids for better or worst, and I was still kind of a sneaky little shit, so yeah. I wasn't to bad, but you know. Young and Curious.

 

[Jesterscup]

The reason why I dislike Anita Sarkeesian is because she's no better than a creationist: she's not doing "objective science and research" she jas a pre-defined conclusion and she's cherry-picking data points that support her conclusion. She will completely neglect counter-points even if they reside within that SAME games that she's criticizing.

So Anita gets mentioned once in the OP. and nowhere else as far as I can tell, so afaic this is way off-topic and generally detrimental to the frankly productive and interesting discussion that was being had.

But lets clear one thing up, yes you are right that her methods in many cases, particularly the 'hitman episode' are deeply flawed. Yes you are right that she misrepresented the content of a game. BUT what she is doing is not making a critique of a game. What she IS doing is pointing out tropes which are recognised in other forms of media and showing us that these same issues exist in games. Thing is there are equality issues in games, and endlessly ranting about her doesn't help in finding a solution to that. Sadly in the end it seems she's done more harm than good, but at least we're talking about these issues now.

So where do we go from here, we look at ourselves, our interest, and the industry and the issues and ask ourselves some deep, meaningful questions and try to get somewhere better.

THAT'S why I don't like Anita. Call me a mysogynist scumbag if you want but that would just make you no better than her.

nah, not doing that, I totally understand why you don't like her, my blood boiled too at points. It doesn't invalidate anything that anyone has said in any post on this thread.

--------------
Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

 

[Jux]

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

In addition to the issues you'll face with under reporting and cognitive disconnects (something misogynistic may not be perceived as misogynistic by the one doing the act), I think you'll find that dictionary definitions don't really cover the scope of a word all that well when we talk about it academically. You see a lot of the same thing when it comes to discussions about homophobia, with the inevitable 'But I'm not afraid of gay people, and that's what homophobia means!'.

 

[grassgremlin]

Certainly, you'd upset less people, and I can definitely appreciate wanting to do that, to avoid another long pointless argument, but you'd be doing that by not actually talking about the issue. Might almost as well not say anything. This is a common problem that applies to lots of issues.

In this context, though, there's the added problem that a lot of fantasy armour and weapons would be totally rubbish anyway. A chainmail bikini would seem more practical than attaching 2 tonnes of black spikes to your outfit, for example.

What the problem is is something we're always going to disagree on, so we might as well not get into an argument over it. Afaik, your problem is the reason they exist, mine is the fact they exist, and the OP probably dislikes us both because in our own ways we'd like to see less of these things.

As for not saying anything? I don't expect anyone to silence their opinions because they might offend someone, my point was that being less... aggressive? Close enough. Less aggressive would make your (general you, not you specifically) arguments feel less like an attack on what people enjoy (see OP's point).

And personally, I'd rather have two tonnes of black spikes on me than a chainmail codpiece. At least the spikes might hurt someone who tries to attack me, even if I couldn't move.

I don't dislike you both, you have your opinions. I agree, chainmail bikini's are terrible excuses for armor. I like using them and those types of armor in fantasy, sense you can come up with any ridiculous reason for why they are their. Maybe magical force-field.

As an artist, it's usually just fun to suspend a certain sense of disbelief and draw things you'd never see anyone wear in real life, cause screw reality. But, I do understand the various points you guys made. They have no place in such areas as children's fiction or more credible and developed stories. Sex is simply something that is incredibly hard to take seriously, (In the context of a story trying to have a serious plot not about sex) and I completely agree with that.

I like to state my tastes usually veer on the campy, cartoonish or ridiculous side. Stuff I don't have to take to seriously. It's all a manner of taste really, and I respect your right to disagree with me. In fact, I welcome it out of curiosity, actually. Makes me less ignorant if I state my opinions.

 

[Waaghpowa]

The reason why I dislike Anita Sarkeesian is because she's no better than a creationist: she's not doing "objective science and research" she jas a pre-defined conclusion and she's cherry-picking data points that support her conclusion. She will completely neglect counter-points even if they reside within that SAME games that she's criticizing.

She's also not a gamer, and has admitted as such. She's not playing the games she's researching... She's stealing Let's Play footage from youtubers without permission or even letting them know about it. She doesn't want to promote an open discussion of her videos or her topics because she blocked out the comments sections on all of her videos.

And in some cases she completely makes shit up for the sake of making a game sound worse than it is. She made an example of Hitman where there's a part where you can kill and move stripper's bodies around and talks for minutes on end about how this game is DESIGNED to be a sexual playground for men to objectify these women... Completely ignoring the facts that:

a) These strippers were only present in one small part of one small level.
b) There was an alternate route that the player can take that would have avoided the strippers all together
c) The game actively PENALIZES you by reducing your score for killing the strippers because they are civilians
d) The game lets you kill and move the bodies of ANY male or female in the game so it's not being sexist in that regard.
e) Almost no let's play footage of the game shows any of the players interacting with the strippers in any way except to sneak past them.

This whole manufactured scenario is a perfect case study for why Anita is a corrupt and agenda driven liar. She doesn't care about video games, or about whether they're actually sexist or not... She's just trying to cause a shit storm like all those other internet feminists who play the victim card whenever anyone criticises them.

THAT'S why I don't like Anita. Call me a mysogynist scumbag if you want but that would just make you no better than her.

This is what I actually came here to talk about, but you beat me to it. Thunderf00t brought up the same points as well, I should add. Anita also appeared to have recorded gameplay of herself killing those strippers just to make a totally out of context point.

The fact that she's making videos about sexism in games isn't an issue to me, I would actually watch them for academic curiosity's sake, but the problem is that she's clearly full of shit and people who disagree with her are automatically dismissed as being sexist or misogynist.

 

[Denamic]

Watching Big Brother the other day, there were great, big, fake tits in full frontal nudity on TV, and it wasn't even night time. No one really cared, at least not here in Sweden. American culture is just way, way too sensitive about sexual issues, especially regarding women. It's to the point that it's literally ridiculous sometimes. A celebrity nipple slip is like national news.

 

[Thaluikhain]

Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

Hmmm...wonder if they come with padded underbikinis the way people wore padded shirts under chainmail.

Or possibly pasties.

 

[grassgremlin]

Now I mulled over the continued hate or harassment towards Anita Sarkeesian trying to find a more "logical" root of it. Many journalists have fling misogynist that the phrase starts to lose meaning. First, let's look at this word with the help of Google's dictionary function.

Misogynist: a person who dislikes, despises, or is strongly prejudiced against women.

How many of you can honestly say that you fit this criteria? Try to be very truthful. Even if the word and the definition feels you with anger try to think rationally based on your own experience.

If some of you denied this, then I post the question and the topic of this thread.
Is the reason why people hate these discussions on feminism and gaming because they are being "sexually persecuted" or feel they are being so?

In addition to the issues you'll face with under reporting and cognitive disconnects (something misogynistic may not be perceived as misogynistic by the one doing the act), I think you'll find that dictionary definitions don't really cover the scope of a word all that well when we talk about it academically. You see a lot of the same thing when it comes to discussions about homophobia, with the inevitable 'But I'm not afraid of gay people, and that's what homophobia means!'.

Goddamnit, can I hate my own language more? Be clear damn you! No really, after I typed it I thought about it a little more, so I see your point.

Still, it''s rather insulting the way it's directed. It always feel with a heavy heft of sting. Like damn, what a word, why not something like, "incapable of understanding how women feel" heck "check your privilege" sounds better then "You are a misogynist."

 

[grassgremlin]

Back OT : I love the idea of a chainmail bikin, I'd wear one, but the chafing! My nipples hurt just thinking about it.

Hmmm...wonder if they come with padded underbikinis the way people wore padded shirts under chainmail.

Or possibly pasties.

Guh, now that I think of it. All that metal clinging to your skin. Don't get me started on the iron thong. How are you not scraping things when you move.

 

[Jack Action]

If what you are talking about isn't what you think is the problem, you are being silent on the problem though. It's only less aggressive in that you are avoiding talking about something others don't want to hear.

True enough.

You have to get into and out of the thing without stabbing yourself, though. Once you were in it and not doing anything, you'd be alright.

Which is still more than can be said for a bit of chainmail over the genitals.

 

[gargantual]

One thing I gotta ask. I usually ask this out of curiosity of friends I meet. What were your first Rated R films, and how old were you roughly when you saw them?

My first r-rated film? I was nine, I think. My aunt always had movie nights. In some films with sex scenes we had to divert our eyes (I peaked cause I was a little shit)

As for porn? 11-13 is the earliest I can remember. My mom was kind of non-chalant about her kids for better or worst, and I was still kind of a sneaky little shit, so yeah. I wasn't to bad, but you know. Young and Curious.

Man. We should've made this R film question it's own thread topic eh? Least it could give us deeper perspective on everyone's reservations about games and movies. Maybe could get some of the staff to chirp in their own first exposure memories too.

 

[Jack Action]

I don't dislike you both, you have your opinions. I agree, chainmail bikini's are terrible excuses for armor. I like using them and those types of armor in fantasy, sense you can come up with any ridiculous reason for why they are their. Maybe magical force-field.

As an artist, it's usually just fun to suspend a certain sense of disbelief and draw things you'd never see anyone wear in real life, cause screw reality. But, I do understand the various points you guys made. They have no place in such areas as children's fiction or more credible and developed stories. Sex is simply something that is incredibly hard to take seriously, (In the context of a story trying to have a serious plot not about sex) and I completely agree with that.

I like to state my tastes usually veer on the campy, cartoonish or ridiculous side. Stuff I don't have to take to seriously. It's all a manner of taste really, and I respect your right to disagree with me. In fact, I welcome it out of curiosity, actually. Makes me less ignorant if I state my opinions.

...when the hell did the internet become a place where you could have civil conversations with people?

Also, fair enough, I can't (and won't) argue that something makes no sense in an universe that doesn't take itself seriously. It would be pointless, and if we forced everything to make sense we wouldn't have Saints Row or Sam and Max, along with a good chunk of the media produced since ever.