Misogyny or Sexual Persecution? [Update!]

[grassgremlin]

And this right here is why there's such a strong negative reaction to people that bring this topic up. A lot of people don't care and don't want to ask themselves anything but "Am I having fun?", and then get upset with people who get overzealous and insist that that isn't good enough.

The thing about that argument is that I, and I am sure a great many people, scan over the titles of articles, videos and form posts with out ever feeling the need to consume the content, precisely because we are not interested in it. When we do consume this content, if indeed we weren't interested and did not care about it, we would find little need to add to the discussion. When people seem to actively find such conversations, and have the need to contribute to them, especially in such an enraged way, it seems kind of silly to say that they don't care about it. All they care about is having fun it games. Well guess what, they can go do that, and they will continue to go do that, because games aren't suddenly going to stop being fun because some people are discussing the representation of women in them.

I couldn't word it better myself. This always bugs me so much that people often come to me like, "Who cares?"
Why bother contributing to the discussion if you don't care?
If an article, thread or video is ruining your hobby don't watch it.

 

[angryscotsman93]

It just leads back to Salman Rushdie's saying "What is freedom of expression without the freedom to offend? It is lost."

I have to say, I'm not really sure why you quoted me, and for the most part I actually agree with you.

That being said, let me share a slightly different point of view. I've got a board gaming family, we play catan, archigelago, blueprints, magewars and many many more games. One game we don't play is munchkin, not because it's not very good, or the game mechanics suck, because the humour and sillyness makes up for it. NO we don't play it for the art. We don't play it because I've an 8yr old Daughter, and frankly we vet a lot of our media ( actually all of it ), for messages and subtexts. In munchkins case all the women are highly sexualised, busty & underdressed. Now I don't want that game banned, I'm not going to moan to/about the artist, I celebrate his right to create art like that. But it saddens me that I've one less game to play with the family because of said art. The same is done for children's media, where tropes and stereotypes are also all pervasive, that which is not suitable is simply not allowed.

Now yes you can say thats censorship, and perhaps it is. But before you do, what is being asked is "is this suitable for this person who I have a legal and ethical duty over. Am I doing my best at raising a healthy balanced individual", and also if I cannot censor that what right have I to censor other materials thats not suitable?

Well, see, this is an entirely valid response to this sort of thing. You'd like to play Munchkin with your family, but you find some of the artwork to be inappropriate for your daughter, so you don't play it. That's understandable, and it sure as hell ain't censorship- that's just responsible parenting. I've got no issue with that. My issue, if there was one, would be with a hypothetical individual who would claim that the game is sexist because of those images (which, as we all know, are primarily there to parody the kind of art that you usually find in an RPG's books), and that therefore the game is bad. That's sort of irritating, which is why I'm thankful that I've never seen it happen.

The argument could be made that, as unfortunate as it is that you can't play the game with your daughter, the game wasn't made with your daughter's age group in mind as a target audience, so, sorry. If they'd tried to fit in as many demographics as possible, they might run the risk of making the game kinda bland. I'm not saying this in a "boo hoo, cry more jerk" kind of way, I'm just offering that as an explanation. Once again, you're well within your rights as a parent to say "no, this game's not quite right for my kids," and since you're not going to other people and telling them that their game is bad and they should feel bad, I have no quarrel with you whatsoever.

 

[The Lunatic]

Can you think of, say, three games with gay protagonists? I can't think of a single one. There also seem to be about twenty games with male protagonists to every one that has a female protagonist, at least.

I never got why people complain about under representation of homosexuality in games.

I'm gay, and if anything, I'd say we're over-represented a lot of the time, especially in Bioware games. We represent a very small percentage of the population, and the chances that a character will find another character being part of this small percentage are relatively low.

Added to that, games not having "The gay option" does not mean "You're only allowed to be straight".

You can simply abstain from all the "Straight" choices and play your character as gay.

 

[Jack Action]

I never got why people complain about under representation of homosexuality in games.

I'm gay, and if anything, I'd say we're over-represented a lot of the time, especially in Bioware games. We represent a very small percentage of the population, and the chances that a character will find another character being part of this small percentage are relatively low.

Added to that, games not having "The gay option" does not mean "You're only allowed to be straight".

You can simply abstain from all the "Straight" choices and play your character as gay.

Eh... Did you visit the BioWare social network before ME2 was released, by any chance?

 

[The Lunatic]

Eh... Did you visit the BioWare social network before ME2 was released, by any chance?

Nah, my interest in the ME series is limited at best. Why, what happened?

 

[carnex]

I never got why people complain about under representation of homosexuality in games.

I'm gay, and if anything, I'd say we're over-represented a lot of the time, especially in Bioware games. We represent a very small percentage of the population, and the chances that a character will find another character being part of this small percentage are relatively low.

Added to that, games not having "The gay option" does not mean "You're only allowed to be straight".

You can simply abstain from all the "Straight" choices and play your character as gay.

Eh... Did you visit the BioWare social network before ME2 was released, by any chance?

Don't you think that is false equivalence? It's one thing to talk about games and game developers and another about game players/gamers. There are plenty of openly homophobic people that consume every media. And they are complaining about anything that seem homosexual in TV, Movies, music, books etc

As long as there are more than enough people purchasing product, author will put in whatever author sees and is allowed by producers/financial backers.

 

[Rahkshi500]

I couldn't word it better myself. This always bugs me so much that people often come to me like, "Who cares?"
Why bother contributing to the discussion if you don't care?
If an article, thread or video is ruining your hobby don't watch it.

Because if people start imposing things of what is "acceptable or not" onto one's hobby, then I would say I would find it a problem. Ignorance is not always a bliss, you know.

 

[Jack Action]

Nah, my interest in the ME series is limited at best. Why, what happened?

Nothing specific, but it's a really, really scary place when people hear stuff they don't like. Haven't been there myself since ME2 came out.

BioWare are kinda between a hammer and an anvil on most topics.

Let's just say that "abstaining from the straight choices" was the kind of thing you said if you wanted to start a 100-page flamewar and make everyone hate you.

Edit:

Don't you think that is false equivalence? It's one thing to talk about games and game developers and another about game players/gamers. There are plenty of openly homophobic people that consume every media. And they are complaining about anything that seem homosexual in TV, Movies, music, books etc

As long as there are more than enough people purchasing product, author will put in whatever author sees and is allowed by producers/financial backers.

I'm not quite sure what you're talking about (been drinking though, so don't expect coherence), was just trying to give an explanation for most BW games having gay options.

Sure, they probably wanted to do it anyway, but the BSN really is a terrifying place when the people there get up in arms over something. Anything.

Edit 2: if I'm getting it right (might not be), yeah, there was a fair bit of homophobia around. Was generally quickly crushed. From what I understand, BW mostly avoided gay options in ME1 and 2 because they were more afraid of the general media than their forums, and I can't blame them. You saw what happened when Fox News found out you could have... err... "sex" at all.

 

[The Lunatic]

Nah, my interest in the ME series is limited at best. Why, what happened?

Nothing specific, but it's a really, really scary place when people hear stuff they don't like. Haven't been there myself since ME2 came out.

BioWare are kinda between a hammer and an anvil on most topics.

Let's just say that "abstaining from the straight choices" was the kind of thing you said if you wanted to start a 100-page flamewar and make everyone hate you.

Yeah, echo-chambers can be like that.

It's a lot like the tumblr community, I suppose.

With video games, you're essentially playing a small part of a character's life. The idea that during these few months you view of the character's entire life, developers have to tick various "inclusion" tick boxes is a bit odd to me.

 

[Vault101]

I'm gay, and if anything, I'd say we're over-represented a lot of the time

uh....really? majority of games no

thankfuly I can assume Lara Croft and Sam are together untill the sequel messes that up...*sigh*

[quote/]especially in Bioware games. We represent a very small percentage of the population, and the chances that a character will find another character being part of this small percentage are relatively low.[/quote]
[sub/]well gee thanks for reminding me of the depressing realities..EDIT: actually I don't see whats os wrong about that, thease are fictional worlds and they often get a free pass to bend probability[/sub]

Mass Effect 1 not only had its gay options CUT for the first two games but presented us with a cop-out "you can be with the asari as femshep but ITS NOT ACTUALLY GAY BECAUSE REASONS" I mean...uggghhhh

as much as a kinda like traynor she was a bone...thrown our way

[quote/]Added to that, games not having "The gay option" does not mean "You're only allowed to be straight".

You can simply abstain from all the "Straight" choices and play your character as gay.[/quote]
thats [i/]kinda[/i] true but it still feels like a cop out since youre being "left out" of that aspect of the game (not to mention I get the impression Mass Effect is kind of like your pushy parents...preasuing you to get a boyfreind/girlfreind)

I get the impression DA:O might be better but (its been years since I played) its two gay options appear to be "sexualy promiscuous bisexuals" which is fine but. the whole convinetly bisexual thing is anotehr thing od itself..though to be honest I don't have a problem with it

DA:I apears to have actual non-comprmising gay charachters...which is cool

 

[grassgremlin]

I couldn't word it better myself. This always bugs me so much that people often come to me like, "Who cares?"
Why bother contributing to the discussion if you don't care?
If an article, thread or video is ruining your hobby don't watch it.

Because if people start imposing things of what is "acceptable or not" onto one's hobby, then I would say I would find it a problem. Ignorance is not always a bliss, you know.

No one is imposing anything. You have a right to not consume the products presented because the products you like will still exist and will still be made. Nothing is being taken away.

 

[Rahkshi500]

No one is imposing anything. You have a right to not consume the products presented because the products you like will still exist and will still be made. Nothing is being taken away.

That's not my initial point, though. Yeah, the products will still exist, but the attitudes that surround these kinds of debates(not this specific forum, but the general discussions that happen across the place) that do try to impose of what's acceptable or not, if not from a direct physical matter, then more often than not from a emotional, social, and psychological matter. It's kind of thing that happens a lot in criticism when people imply things that they don't intend to mean. Yeah, the products that you like which validate a part of you, in whatever way it does, will still be there, but people in these kinds of discussions will often send the mix-message of "Yeah, it's okay to like this stuff, but what you like is still awful.", and people don't understand the potential harm that can be inflicted onto others who find validation in the things they don't like. MovieBob spoke about this kind of problem in one of his Big Picture videos, and I think that same thing can apply to any other topic, including this one.

 

[grassgremlin]

No one is imposing anything. You have a right to not consume the products presented because the products you like will still exist and will still be made. Nothing is being taken away.

That's not my initial point, though. Yeah, the products will still exist, but the attitudes that surround these kinds of debates(not this specific forum, but the general discussions that happen across the place) that do try to impose of what's acceptable or not, if not from a direct physical matter, then more often than not from a emotional, social, and psychological matter. It's kind of thing that happens a lot in criticism when people imply things that they don't intend to mean. Yeah, the products that you like which validate a part of you, in whatever way it does, will still be there, but people in these kinds of discussions will often send the mix-message of "Yeah, it's okay to like this stuff, but what you like is still awful.", and people don't understand the potential harm that can be inflicted onto others who find validation in the things they don't like. MovieBob spoke about this kind of problem in one of his Big Picture videos, and I think that same thing can apply to any other topic, including this one.

Moviebob spoke of this kind of problem? As a problem? The same man who basically says the exact thing I just said? That's new, I'd like to see this video for myself.

Also, what's wrong with that message. "Yeah, it's okay to like this stuff, but what you like is still awful." It sums things up exactly. Basically it means, whatever you're into is not immune to criticism. A guilty pleasure is still a guilty pleasure even if you like it unapologetically.

Nothing is sacred. What you like is awful. This is not hard to get actually. What I like is still awful. I like some awful things. Hell, I'm currently making an awful thing. I've pledged that my goal for my first comic is to make the gayest comic I ever made before. It'll be over-saturated in gay. If you look at it, it's a pretty awful thing because I'm leading straight to pandering niche'. It's a certain kind of awful rotteness. And for me, because it's my FIRST comic I expect it to be awful. It's the best way to get all the bad ideas out of my system now so that I can move on to make better work and art. A learning experience.

Awful means it's flawed, and nothing's better then flaws. Flaws make people better. They allow us to grow and without them no one could criticize. That's a sad word for me honestly.

 

[Rahkshi500]

Moviebob spoke of this kind of problem? As a problem? The same man who basically says the exact thing I just said? That's new, I'd like to see this video for myself.

Also, what's wrong with that message. "Yeah, it's okay to like this stuff, but what you like is still awful." It sums things up exactly. Basically it means, whatever you're into is not immune to criticism. A guilty pleasure is still a guilty pleasure even if you like it unapologetically.

Nothing is sacred. What you like is awful. This is not hard to get actually. What I like is still awful. I like some awful things. Hell, I'm currently making an awful thing. I've pledged that my goal for my first comic is to make the gayest comic I ever made before. It'll be over-saturated in gay. If you look at it, it's a pretty awful thing because I'm leading straight to pandering niche'. It's a certain kind of awful rotteness. And for me, because it's my FIRST comic I expect it to be awful. It's the best way to get all the bad ideas out of my system now so that I can move on to make better work and art. A learning experience.

Awful means it's flawed, and nothing's better then flaws. Flaws make people better. They allow us to grow and without them no one could criticize. That's a sad word for me honestly.

His video was "Pink Is Not The Problem", and his other video "Wunderpants" is also an interesting video to look into alongside the former. It's not about this particular topic that we are talking about right now, but the stuff he says, I think, are things that are worth bringing into discussions of other topics, including this one.

Nothing is sacred, yeah, but you know what also means? People can defend what they're into, as well criticize said criticism that's thrown at what they like.

And what's wrong with that message? A lot, actually. As MovieBob had pointed in his videos, and I as point them out here as well, it promotes a poisonous effect onto other people, telling them what they like or are into can never truly validate them as person, and it would still be imposing its own set of potentially harmful standards onto people that in order for them to be validated by, have to convert themselves to those standards, which is the irony that many so-called progressive people are trying to promote that anyone can be who they are and like whatever they want without being shamed or judged by it. So yeah, whether you like it or not, it's still imposing standards of what's acceptable or not onto others.

 

[Agayek]

Also, what's wrong with that message. "Yeah, it's okay to like this stuff, but what you like is still awful." It sums things up exactly. Basically it means, whatever you're into is not immune to criticism. A guilty pleasure is still a guilty pleasure even if you like it unapologetically.

One point I feel the need to talk about: An individual's opinion or perspective on the matter is not universal, and "like" or "not like" has nothing to do with quality, in either direction.

For example, two people can look at, say, Kratos and one can think "this is an incredibly poor representation of someone suffering from PTSD. This character is awful.", and the other can think "This is a brilliant display of how betrayal and festering anger shapes a man. This character is great.", and both statements would be true, to their respective speakers, and false to the opposite one.

It's no more legitimate for the second one to tell the first that they "just don't get it" or whatever than it would be for the first one to tell the second that "it's okay to like it, but it's still awful". Neither of those are true, because both are predicated on particular opinions, beliefs, and life experiences that the other person doesn't, can't really, have.

 

[Jux]

We have . . . the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown.

Spoiler

Our Voluptuous Sorceress

You know, one thing I want to add to this, and not to pick on Dragon's Crown, but there is something about this that bothers me besides the character proportions. How broken must her back be to get an angle not only of full ass, but full bust too (she seems to be lacking a ribcage)? Like, ok I get it, she has big boobs. But does the artist not understand how human bodies look from a particular position? She looks like a prime candidate for the eschergirls tumblr.

 

[grassgremlin]

We have . . . the Sorceress in Dragon's Crown.

Spoiler

Our Voluptuous Sorceress

You know, one thing I want to add to this, and not to pick on Dragon's Crown, but there is something about this that bothers me besides the character proportions. How broken must her back be to get an angle not only of full ass, but full bust too (she seems to be lacking a ribcage)? Like, ok I get it, she has big boobs. But does the artist not understand how human bodies look from a particular position? She looks like a prime candidate for the eschergirls tumblr.

You silly. sexy people don't have ribcages.

No for real, I get what you mean. This woman's proportions seem more like hindrances then sexy. No wonder she must prop herself up with a staff and skeletal remains. She fears toppling over and collapsing in on her own body.

 

[Jux]

You silly. sexy people don't have ribcages.

No for real, I get what you mean. This woman's proportions seem more like hindrances then sexy. No wonder she must prop herself up with a staff and skeletal remains. She fears toppling over and collapsing in on her own body.

I can't help but feel a lot of these artists grew up on Rob Liefeld comics. I mean, check some of this out:

Spoiler

It would explain a lot, just sayin.

Would even explain the way the dwarf is drawn too!

Spoiler

 

[Silvanus]

Okay, yeah, I may be reading too much into it. Possibly because I don't see physical contact as merely friendly, and Raziel "dies" caressing Kain's chest. While the normally sarcastic and stoic Kain gets as close as he physically can to crying, or showing any emotion that isn't contempt.

I do see your point though.

Perhaps I should play it (or watch a let's-play) before commenting, admittedly. I'll put it in the "ambiguous" pile for now.

I never got why people complain about under representation of homosexuality in games.

I'm gay, and if anything, I'd say we're over-represented a lot of the time, especially in Bioware games. We represent a very small percentage of the population, and the chances that a character will find another character being part of this small percentage are relatively low.

Thousands of games with written protagonists exist-- thousands upon thousands-- and we've had one named with a gay protagonist. We're not that small a proportion.

Added to that, games not having "The gay option" does not mean "You're only allowed to be straight".

You can simply abstain from all the "Straight" choices and play your character as gay.

Indeed you can. I mentioned above that I thought it was a good approach.

It doesn't counter my point, though, which regarded the preponderance of protagonists written to be straight. It's not the same thing.

 

[grassgremlin]

You silly. sexy people don't have ribcages.

No for real, I get what you mean. This woman's proportions seem more like hindrances then sexy. No wonder she must prop herself up with a staff and skeletal remains. She fears toppling over and collapsing in on her own body.

I can't help but feel a lot of these artists grew up on Rob Liefeld comics. I mean, check some of this out:

Spoiler

It would explain a lot, just sayin.

Would even explain the way the dwarf is drawn too!

Spoiler

Rob Liefield draws some ugly women. I have no idea how any man can find them attractive.
I will give George Kamitani the benefit of the doubt. He draws some cute characters.

Spoiler

I think his art dies the moment his characters grow a bust. It might be an issue with proportions.

Spoiler