Modern Games: Endless Landscapes! 1,000s of NPCs! Amazing Sandboxes! Shallow, Empty, Primitive.

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FieryTrainwreck

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I've been running around Skyrim the last few weeks, and I'll gladly admit that I'm having quite a time. Between the massive environments and seemingly unlimited quests and characters, there's practically no end to the things I can see and do.

Unless I want to have a remotely convincing interaction with another character.

The visuals and world design have reached a pretty high standard at this point, but the actual gameplay, the conversations and interplay between the inhabitants of the game? That stuff hasn't advanced much at all in the five years since Oblivion. You still get the same small handful of canned responses. The quests are still mostly fetch. The characters are overly scripted, and the scripts are terribly short.

I've felt this way for a while, but Skyrim really cements it: game design is moving in the wrong direction. They're building these massive worlds and populating them with thousands of people, but none of them are remotely convincing. Your interactions with them are repetitive and predictable. Blame it on poor AI or limited writing, but there's no denying that the substance of gaming hasn't progressed at the same pace as the style.

Before everyone burns me at the stake, imagine Bethesda announces TESVI tomorrow. The setting is a single village and the surrounding countryside, forest, mountain, etc. The cast of characters numbers maybe two dozen. Quest lines? Let's say ten. Sounds just awful, right?

But they're going to give this game the same five years they gave Skyrim. They're going to pour the exact same budget and effort into this single location, this intimate cast, and these paltry few quests. Can you imagine the detail? The authenticity of the environments and your interactions, the depth of writing and character for each and every person, the depth and length of your quests...

I guess the easiest way to put it is this: games have expanded into massive open-world sandboxes with thousands of characters before bothering to master the basic interaction between just two people. If they'd focus their efforts on smaller locations and fewer characters, we'd at least end up with more detailed and convincing slices of a world. Then, with that base established, they can think about expanding the scene.

Just some random thoughts. Feel free to discuss or ignore.
 

ResonanceGames

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It's unfortunate that you chose an Elder Scrolls game as an example, since they've been continuously getting more hand-crafted and personal (with the exception of Oblivion, which was had a lot of half-baked technology in it).

Arena and Daggerfall are both vastly bigger than Skyrim (Daggerfall is literally over 1,000 larger than Skyrim) and both of them had much fetchier sidequests and far less original dialogue or variety with their NPCs. I'd say the Elder Scrolls has been moving in the right direction in that regard.

I do agree that Bethesda needs to hire some better character writers. Memorable TES characters are few and far between.
 

Wolfram23

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I tend to agree. Still a fun game but definitely a very, very lonely one.

I think I felt closer to Alex in HL2 than even my trusted companion, Lydia. Did you know, she's sworn to carry my burdens?

I realize a good portion of the reasoning behind this is that they voice act everyone... but, I mean, seriously, I don't mind if it's not fully voice acted. Like in Zelda, you get little vocal sounds but for the most part it's just text which of course allows a bazillion more interaction options. They could certainly voice the main characters and give a lot of people a few lines, like guards ("I recognize you") and merchants ("What-r-ya buyin'?"), but beyond that I don't mind text based chats. I swear.
 

Kahunaburger

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I'd say this speaks more to Bethesada's inability to write human beings than a general trend in gaming. Compare New Vegas, for instance. That's a pretty good example of what a Bethesada game would be like if the writing was better.
 

XMark

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There's Skyrim on one end of the spectrum. The other end is highly-scripted and cinematic linear games like Final Fantasy XIII or Modern Warfare. So I don't think either is a "trend" in gaming.
 

JesterRaiin

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Modern Games: Endless Landscapes! 1,000s of NPCs! Amazing Sandboxes! Shallow, Empty, Primitive.
Modern gamers : unable to grasp the concept of immersion, not willing to role-play a little.
 

NotSoLoneWanderer

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I'd hoped that they would have at least given your possible companions more personal personality and an accompanying quest with benefits to them and yourself. Like New Vegas did.
 

Richardplex

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Wolfram01 said:
I tend to agree. Still a fun game but definitely a very, very lonely one.

I think I felt closer to Alex in HL2 than even my trusted companion, Lydia. Did you know, she's sworn to carry my burdens?

I realize a good portion of the reasoning behind this is that they voice act everyone... but, I mean, seriously, I don't mind if it's not fully voice acted. Like in Zelda, you get little vocal sounds but for the most part it's just text which of course allows a bazillion more interaction options. They could certainly voice the main characters and give a lot of people a few lines, like guards ("I recognize you") and merchants ("What-r-ya buyin'?"), but beyond that I don't mind text based chats. I swear.
New Vegas had interesting companions, Bioware has an entire MMO voice acted, that's *really* not going to cut it as an excuse anymore.
 

Melon Hunter

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I used to think that NPCs in sandbox games were shallow and unconvincing, but then I took an arrow to the... actually, I think I'll stop there. I can see your point, especially the creepy psycho stare every NPC in Fallout3/NV and TES gives you when they're talking to you. If nothing else, body language needs to be incorporated into conversations more. It really added something in Human Revolution when both Jensen and the subject start moving around and expressing their feelings non-verbally during conversation (especially the 'conversation bosses').

There was a huge step in the right direction by giving your companions and the faction leaders their own flaws, traumas and personal backstories in New Vegas, although that was written by Obsidian, so I guess we're out of luck there.
 

TPiddy

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Sorry, you want character and interaction, play Mass Effect or GTA... you want free-roaming adventure and fun? Play Skyrim or Saints Row....

Different tastes appeal to different gamers... if every game was small, linear and had good writing I would hate gaming... there has to be something for everyone...
 

Erttheking

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I think this might be why I prefer the story in Bioware RPGs, the characters seem much more three dimensional.
 

Daverson

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Personally, I blame console manufacturers (Not console gamers, manufacturers). There hasn't been a significant upgrade in terms of the hardware available to the console market for a while. Oblivion pushed the boundaries of what the hardware could do when it came out, and Skyrim's using that exact same hardware.

And that's why we aren't getting more technologically impressive games nowadays.
 

lacktheknack

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As a comp-sci student, all I have to say is that scripting is REALLY REALLY HARD.

As in ridiculously hard.

And all detail they sacrifice towards better scripting and predicting player actions, etc, will NOT return an equal proportion of better script. You'll just end with a poorer game overall.

If you want fantastic scripted sequences, you're going to have to wait for Valve to release something else. There's a reason they take so long.
 

lacktheknack

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Daverson said:
Personally, I blame console manufacturers (Not console gamers, manufacturers). There hasn't been a significant upgrade in terms of the hardware available to the console market for a while. Oblivion pushed the boundaries of what the hardware could do when it came out, and Skyrim's using that exact same hardware.

And that's why we aren't getting more technologically impressive games nowadays.
But we haven't come anywhere near the boundaries of scriptwriting. If anything, the ease of which we can now reach the graphical ceiling will make for BETTER scripting in the future. If a new console came out tomorrow, we'd be at square one again for graphics, and square -50 for the problem the OP is complaining about.
 

Trotgar

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I agree that the developers should use more time to give depth to the game than just make it huge. I haven't played Skyrim yet, but I've heard that (even though the world is supposedly deeper than in Oblivion) the conversations are still quite simple. I hope they'd put more effort in those, although the size of the game world would probably have to be cut a little.
ResonanceGames said:
Hmm... the two of us sharing basically the same avatar could cause some problems.

Although we're distinguishable by our user names and by the MM logo that I still haven't removed from my avatar (seriously, I'll probably keep it through the next MM and then finally change it back to plain Morte), it might cause some confusion.

Nevertheless, I agree with you: The Elder Scrolls series has been moving in the right direction, but I think they should deepen the dialogue more.
 

ResonanceGames

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JesterRaiin said:
FieryTrainwreck said:
Modern Games: Endless Landscapes! 1,000s of NPCs! Amazing Sandboxes! Shallow, Empty, Primitive.
Modern gamers : unable to grasp the concept of immersion, not willing to role-play a little.
Pretty much. And that's actually symptomatic of a very real problem that's facing game designers, because the more detail you give them, the more detail they expect.

"Oh, the town is full of detailed people who I can initiate dialogue with...but why do some of them sound the same and say the same things?" "Hey look, thousands of individual textures and rocks, but why do some of them look a little blurry?" That was less of a problem when games were more simple and abstract and required more suspension of disbelief from the outset.
 

Machocruz

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The genre hasn't progressed in that manner since Ultima 7, which had individual dialogue for each NPC.

But getting rocks and empty stretches of grass to look right is more important than creating personalities to interact with.
 

isometry

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FieryTrainwreck said:
Before everyone burns me at the stake, imagine Bethesda announces TESVI tomorrow. The setting is a single village and the surrounding countryside, forest, mountain, etc. The cast of characters numbers maybe two dozen. Quest lines? Let's say ten. Sounds just awful, right?

But they're going to give this game the same five years they gave Skyrim. They're going to pour the exact same budget and effort into this single location, this intimate cast, and these paltry few quests. Can you imagine the detail? The authenticity of the environments and your interactions, the depth of writing and character for each and every person, the depth and length of your quests...
I don't like character focused games, because if I end up finding the characters boring then the whole game is boring. That's why I don't like the Dragon Age series, for example.

In fact, I generally dislike companions in my western RPGs. I never travel with an NPC in Skyrim, and if I had the option of going solo in Mass Effect (like we did back in KoTOR) then I would.
 

ResonanceGames

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Trotgar said:
I agree that the developers should use more time to give depth to the game than just make it huge. I haven't played Skyrim yet, but I've heard that (even though the world is supposedly deeper than in Oblivion) the conversations are still quite simple. I hope they'd put more effort in those, although the size of the game world would probably have to be cut a little.
ResonanceGames said:
Hmm... the two of us sharing basically the same avatar could cause some problems.

Although we're distinguishable by our user names and by the MM logo that I still haven't removed from my avatar (seriously, I'll probably keep it through the next MM and then finally change it back to plain Morte), it might cause some confusion.

Nevertheless, I agree with you: The Elder Scrolls series has been moving in the right direction, but I think they should deepen the dialogue more.
Ha, no worries, I'll put a different one up when I get a sec. This was just the only avatar I had handy on my desktop.